New system, amp and speakers advices..again

[Beppep]

well well, after posting couple of weeks ago about my current issue, dealing with MA Silver 8, Yamaha rn500 and a Technics turnatable Sl1200mk5, I am back for advices. I am planning to restart from zero, so I will find a way to get rid of my current set, mint conditions

What is bad:

1MA silver 8s dont have a punchy bass, it goes deep but sounds floated and it is not well controlled. Can play decently music as Eagles, Folk, not bad Classics, but they are terrible with rock, post punk, synth rock etc.. lack or attack, not engaging in the rythm.

2 When music is complex someone between Amp and speakers or even Dac loose coherence and play what it wants.

What is really bad: Technics SL1200 plugged in the Yamaha multiamp sounds flatted, sound is not engaging, not dynamic, just good with voices. Cartidge mounted MM ATK 95E, better then previous Ortophone for DJ but not near the sound I got back in the 80s from my old technics turnatable that I dont have anymore.

What is decent: highs are not bad, refined but not a forward sound i would like.

Tried to audition MA silver8S with others aplifiers and at the end this is not what I am looking for, probably now situation is worst as I have parquet floor and everything exacerbate bass. With 2 back firing bass port, MA clearly cannot produce a punchy bass and even middle are lacking of something.

recently heard the Triangle Australe EZ, French speakers, liked the way they go down but they are not so dynamic as I wanted, Dynaudio as well have a sound that comes from a box.

Planning to do some audition on Saturday, considering that I am not in UK so I need something I can find easily, or almost, what can you suggest? I am open to advices, need a good match, budget for speakers can extend up to 3500. Need an enjoyable pair of speakers, fwd sounding (so very good high) and able to reproduce decently almost everything, particul rock, good attack. Planning to hear Proac if i can find them or ATC. Any suggestions?

 

[newlash09]

well well, after posting couple of weeks ago about my current issue, dealing with MA Silver 8, Yamaha rn500 and a Technics turnatable Sl1200mk5, I am back for advices. I am planning to restart from zero, so I will find a way to get rid of my current set, mint conditions

What is bad:

1MA silver 8s dont have a punchy bass, it goes deep but sounds floated and it is not well controlled. Can play decently music as Eagles, Folk, not bad Classics, but they are terrible with rock, post punk, synth rock etc.. lack or attack, not engaging in the rythm.

2 When music is complex someone between Amp and speakers or even Dac loose coherence and play what it wants.

What is really bad: Technics SL1200 plugged in the Yamaha multiamp sounds flatted, sound is not engaging, not dynamic, just good with voices. Cartidge mounted MM ATK 95E, better then previous Ortophone for DJ but not near the sound I got back in the 80s from my old technics turnatable that I dont have anymore.

What is decent: highs are not bad, refined but not a forward sound i would like.

Tried to audition MA silver8S with others aplifiers and at the end this is not what I am looking for, probably now situation is worst as I have parquet floor and everything exacerbate bass. With 2 back firing bass port, MA clearly cannot produce a punchy bass and even middle are lacking of something.

recently heard the Triangle Australe EZ, French speakers, liked the way they go down but they are not so dynamic as I wanted, Dynaudio as well have a sound that comes from a box.

Planning to do some audition on Saturday, considering that I am not in UK so I need something I can find easily, or almost, what can you suggest? I am open to advices, need a good match, budget for speakers can extend up to 3500. Need an enjoyable pair of speakers, fwd sounding (so very good high) and able to reproduce decently almost everything, particul rock, good attack. Planning to hear Proac if i can find them or ATC. Any suggestions?

Please also include PMC in your audition list. I listen to lot of EDM, electro and Synth. The bass , speed and dynamics are superb. And the detail is all there. Highly musical too. And if you are also looking for a integrated amp , then may I also suggest auditioning the parasound with PMC speakers. I have this setup, and started loving it today

 

[gasolin]

wooow cheap amp: Lacks energy and attack Could be more agile, precise and dynamic

https://www.whathifi.com/yamaha/r-n500/review

And than the cartridge, no better than my rega carbon, actually they are the same, i like it, but it's really a cheap cartridge and then with that amp: Technics SL1200 plugged in the Yamaha multiamp sounds flatted, sound is not engaging, not dynamic, just good with voices

Than the speakers they cost twice what both the amp and speakers cost (or 4 times as much as the amp), they are 4 ohm speakers that may go under 4ohm and according to a review slighty bass heavy: MA silver 8s dont have a punchy bass, it goes deep but sounds floated and it is not well controlled. You got amp problems

You really have something missmatched, hope you didn't bougth your system form advice on whathifi

Amp 350£ speakers 1400£ cartridge 35£ OMG Do you see the problems here ?

(im guesssing the phono stage on the yamaha isn't more than okay or less than a marantz PM6006 and a standard cartridge, no wonder you complain about the sound from your turntable)

Amp: Buy asap a much better amp, rega brio,rega elex-r,martantz PM8006,Naim Nait 5si,roksan k3 or something similar that can handle 4 ohm speaker and control them.

Cartridge: Get one for mabye 150-200£ since you obiviously don't like your at95E cartridge. You shouldn't really complain about the sound since the amp may only have an avarage or just okay phonostage and you bought a low budget cartridge.

Speaker: Mabye room treatment and try to place them differently, mabye longer away from a wall,corner.

Update the speaker goes down to 3.5 ohm at 160hz, your amp is fare from good enough https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-8-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[davedotco]

A critique of that system would go on for pages.

However, although starting from scratch, you are talking some fairly serious money here, best to get it right.

Not knowing your marketplace, I am going to talk in terms of the English market and prices, so bear that in mind.

Assuming you plan to keep vinyl as you primary source then I would suggest spending approaching half your budget on a player, turntable, arm, cartridge etc if your budget is around £2000-3000, a little less if your budget is higher. Expect to spend slightly more on the amp than the speakers with standmounts prefered unless the budget is much higher.

To be more specific, we need to know tour budget and some details of what is available in your market.

 

[Macspur]

wooow cheap amp: Lacks energy and attack Could be more agile, precise and dynamic

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Vladimir]

I'd give these a listen for classic rock. *dirol*

Oh mama! This monster would make JBL LE120H woofers really dance.

 

[Vladimir]

A critique of that system would go on for pages.

The man needs a horn system but he hasn't realized it yet.

 

[gasolin]

Here are my thoughts on something different

Preamp with phonostage, a much better cartridge, a pair of Yamaha HS8 or to make Vladimir happy a pair of jbl LSR308 on stands with some isoacoustics isolation feet/stands gaia,aparta or L8R200, more than enough for most people for rock music

 

[gasolin]

A critique of that system would go on for pages.

The man needs a horn system but he hasn't realized it yet.

That's some horny speakers*man_in_love*

 

[Beppep]

Should I start to upgrade the amplifier or it is better to listen again new speakers?. I mean from what I see the amplifier is one of the main problem here, however having audiotiomed recently MA 500 with NAD, marantz, better Yamaha, arcam I don't think that MA are decent with rock, of course these sounded better then my Yamaha but not so much to define an amplifier give dynamics to my speakers, even if MA500 are little but different than MA8. With regards of the turntable yes is the source together with digital, hope that changing cartridge will improve the Technics, pethalps a separate pre phono would be ideal. Budget for speakers is around 2500, amplifier 1500, I live in Switzerland so I can audition in France, Germany, Italy as well. My room size is around 35 sqm, parquet floor.

 

[insider9]

For me it's always in this order

Room > Speakers > Amplifier > Source

Yes, definitely start with speakers. Make sure speakers fit the room and are properly setup. Then get a sufficient amp to drive them properly. Preferably with a decent enough phono stage. Next would be a cart upgrade.

And I've been saying it from your first post Monitor Audios are not suitable for Rock. Those who think Rock is easy to do surely don't listen to it and think of it as poorly recorded noise.

 

[Vladimir]

+1 for speakers first.

 

[rainsoothe]

I will + the PMC suggestion, and add Focal Aria range. Use with Naim Superuniti or the stuff in my signature (Nac N172XS + Nap200), together with Naim Naca5 speaker cable, at least 3.5m per side - mind you it's a VERY stiff and ugly cable, but its a great match for Naim; Tellurium Q and Chord are good alternatives, but trade some aspects for others - I prefer TQ. Hegel are also worth looking into, I still prefer Naim though.

For your tt setup, I strongly recommend the Schiit Mani phono pre-amp and swap the thin-sounding AT cartridge with Nagaoka MP110 or MP150 if you can afford it.

Again, as I stated in your previous post, the problems stem from your reciever. I'm an "amp first" kind of guy. Even if I aknoledge that the speakers are the ones that have the biggest impact in the presentation, I think that a great speaker can't sound good if used with a not-so-capable amplifier - on the other hand, a good amp can make any speaker "sing", so...

 

[Blacksabbath25]

The Nad looks tasty *smile*

 

[Vladimir]

Here are my thoughts on something different

Preamp with phonostage, a much better cartridge, a pair of Yamaha HS8 or to make Vladimir happy a pair of jbl LSR308 on stands with some isoacoustics isolation feet/stands gaia,aparta or L8R200, more than enough for most people for rock music

If I had 3500 to play with for speakers, I wouldn't buy those recycled toilet seats.

In Germany there is Adam and in France is Focal for actives.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I'd spend 2.5k on the amp and 1.5k on the speakers...but better yet..compile a small shortlist of possible candidates ..demo some amps and speakers together from said shortlist with music you are familiar with and some not so much so listen carefully and try to get a perfect synergy between the two regardless of which costs what £££££'s but remember a less expensive speaker driven well with a better amp will almost always sound better than a amp trying to drive a speaker that is a level or two above in class.

 

[Gazzip]

The Nad looks tasty *smile*

Do they make a mono version? I would be tempted by a weighty pair of nads.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Me thinks the OP should take some music and go and listen to some setups in your local Hifi dealers and say what you would like for the kind of music you listen to and what’s missing from your current setup sound wise as they should advise you which direction to take for your needs .

if funds allow look at speakers and amplifier first and try a buy them together or a home demo on sale and return this way if your not happy you have not lost anything .

if you find what your looking for when demoing trade your old speakers in and amplifier to gain some money back so it’s less to pay on the new equipment then ones you have run-in amplifier and speakers then start looking at a new turntable .

 

[gasolin]

Here are my thoughts on something different

Preamp with phonostage, a much better cartridge, a pair of Yamaha HS8 or to make Vladimir happy a pair of jbl LSR308 on stands with some isoacoustics isolation feet/stands gaia,aparta or L8R200, more than enough for most people for rock music

If I had 3500 to play with for speakers, I wouldn't buy those recycled toilet seats.

In Germany there is Adam and in France is Focal for actives.

At the time i made my post i didn't know how much op's budget was.

Knowing it theres lot's of better speakers op could buy like genelec,dynaudio and as you mention focal and adam audio

 

[Beppep]

Focal here are easy to find, you can listen the aria almost in supermarket chain, to be honest I listen them years ago and I was not impressed, not so musical for my taste and high not pronunciated. Harbeth never listen, tried to find something in YouTube and seems they have something in common with Proac or ATc, that is my impression. I would prefer to don't spend 3000 for new if I can find something second hand I am happy as well, result is what matter a three way is what I was thinking a front firing port probably is more suitable for me.

 

[lindsayt]

A critique of that system would go on for pages.

However, although starting from scratch, you are talking some fairly serious money here, best to get it right...

Yeah, about £1000 2nd hand would be enough to address the main shortcomings outlined in the opening post.

And well done to beppep for being so honest about his system. Makes such a pleasant change from someone say "Rah, rah. My system's the best ever!"

 

[lindsayt]

The man needs a horn system but he hasn't realized it yet.

I agree, sort of. But that horn system isn't a horn system. It's a porrted direct radiator system.

beppep should listen to a pair of decent horns. Even if he has no intention of buying due to looks and size. If only to put some perspective on any other speakers he auditions.

 

[davedotco]

No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

Beppep. You despeately need to find a competent dealer, someone who knows a thing or two about vinyl playback.

 

[Vladimir]

It's a porrted direct radiator system.

Well noted. I was just teasing with Hotel California.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Whilst it seems clear you don't like the MA, any of the following speaker suggestions will need a big step up in amplification to see any real benefits.

From Switzerland, Piega Classic 7.0: Ribbon tweeter should cater for those highs you desire. Haven't heard this myself but as they're Swiss....

From France, Davis Acoustics Cezanne (there are a couple of other models in the same ballpark but this is the one I've heard): a cone tweeter, made in-house which is supposed to give smooth delivery and really controlled highs. I wasn't really focussing on this aspect but enjoyed the speakers performance.

From Germany: Elac FS 409 (again a couple of other models bigger and smaller to choose from): again with a form of ribbon tweeter which gives a sweet, open high end.

To be honest though, the MA speakers look like the strongest part of the set-up at the moment from your description (I know nothing about turntables). The amp is where I'd start, looking to save money by keeping the speakers. You could, of course, end up snookered by getting an amp which wont work with the next set of speakers, if you really can't live with the MA.