New Amp Time..almost!

[CnoEvil]

One thing to bear in mind...if you prefer the sound of an amp without Tone Controls to one with them, the tone controls won't make up the difference.

Regarding power supplies...while it is better to have an amp that can get close to doubling its power into 4 Ohms, it needn't be a deal breaker, provided it sounds better than its peers. It may also depend on how low the impedance drops on the speakers it has to drive.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

yes comes in black or silver i would look at the specs on it as it does talk about load from 8 - 4 but do not understand that side of things

 

[Infiniteloop]

I think a valve amp may sound too 'lush'..

The best general advice I can give you is, don't make assumptions - not about power rating; not about how Valve Amps sound; not about Class D; not about star ratings in reviews or fan based support for products, that happen to be flavour of the month....so don't rule anything in (or out), until you've personally heard it.

I have a 35W amp, that through speakers with a Sensitivity of around 90 dBs, goes louder in a large room than my ears can handle.

The notion that all Valve amps sound lush, dark and syrupy, is misplaced. They can sound exciting, dramatic and dynamic, but may need a little more care over speaker suitability.

+1

At the risk of sounding like I'm playing a game of 'Mine is smaller than yours', I have a 24 Watt SET Valve Amp that plays frighteningly loud and dynamic with a pair of 88 dB speakers....

 

[paulkebab]

but the wrong colour means it isn't going to make the cut.

To answer a question the only time I've heard an amp with no tone controls was when I auditioned the Oppo cans and they were hooked up to a Bryston setup. Very nice sound, but a bit too much mid at mid to higher volumes but that only covers the cans not my speakers which would hardly ever see me hankering for tone controls apart from the very odd occasion. To clarify the amp problem I can get the volume control to about 1 o'clock before clipping starts. I know it's the speakers causing this as I've had the same issue with two Cambridge amps I tried. If I could get to 3 o'clock with the volume it would probably be the most I would need. So we're probably down to 90 WPC!? The speakers are rated at 89dB which is higher than what I thought they were.

So the list is currently the Cambridge, Vincent, Naim Supernait 2 and the Arcam A39. When it's right I'll pay over my budget if necessary but this will be a final purchase. Im only gonna get older so will probably need tone controls eventually.

 

[ID.]

To clarify the amp problem I can get the volume control to about 1 o'clock before clipping starts. I know it's the speakers causing this as I've had the same issue with two Cambridge amps I tried. If I could get to 3 o'clock with the volume it would probably be the most I would need. So we're probably down to 90 WPC!?

i don't even know where to start *dash1*

 

[paulkebab]

the issue but I'm trying to throw every factor I can think of at this thread, things will become confused I understand that. Thinking about things today I really don't think I could live without tone controls even though most of the time they are bypassed on the Yamaha, unless I keep that as a headphone only amp (albeit a bit OTT) which then puts a 'no tone controls' amp in the running. Ringing some dealers tomorrow to arrange a demo on the Naim, Arcam and Cambridge and possibly be swayed by something I never considered.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

To clarify the amp problem I can get the volume control to about 1 o'clock before clipping starts. I know it's the speakers causing this as I've had the same issue with two Cambridge amps I tried. If I could get to 3 o'clock with the volume it would probably be the most I would need. So we're probably down to 90 WPC!?

i don't even know where to start *dash1*

+1 ID. *dash1*. Is this fella 'avin a giraffe or what?

 

[ID.]

Maybe someone with a bit more patience than me can either decipher what he's going on about or explain about the volume knob of amps, power delivery and clipping.

 

[paulkebab]

on the brick wall, it's simple really although no-one pointed this one out.

The Yamaha can be used as a pre-amp. How simple was that? So, I get upgraded power amp and keep the Yamaha back as the pre-amp and also a very powerful headphone amp with tone controls.

Looks like the CA Azur 851A is the winner but demo-ing next week.

Thanks.

 

[ID.]

on the brick wall, it's simple really although no-one pointed this one out.

The Yamaha can be used as a pre-amp. How simple was that? So, I get upgraded power amp and keep the Yamaha back as the pre-amp and also a very powerful headphone amp with tone controls.

Looks like the CA Azur 851A is the winner but demo-ing next week.

Thanks.

sorry, still makes no sense as how far the dial turns on various amps doesn't mean what you think it means, but glad you've found a solution that works for you.

Just for the record, many (most?) integrated amps will be hitting close to their maximum power output and even clipping at about 12 on the dial, so it's the amp, not the speakers

you can also work this out because it's happened with a couple of CA amps you tried

pre power combinations might be different, especially if there is a trim on the power amp, etc

also, the increase in volume vs. watts is not linear.

 

[paulkebab]

nothing much is pretty linear in terms of the effect a potentiometer has. I was probably being much too simplistic in my previous post but as I said, I was trying to put everything in here as I don't want to make a horribly wrong decision and I feel terribly guilty if I think I've wasted anyone's time.

Demo-ing the CA next week, still open to advice though!

 

[FennerMachine]

You possibly mean you need an amp that produces as much volume as the others you have used at 3 o'clock but at around 11 o'clock.
Or an amp that has a good usable range upto 3 o'clock without distortion.
The CA power amp can supply much power.
Increase of 3 db requires double power, 10 db ten times.

 

[paulkebab]

a very simplistic but correct assumption of what I want. However as pointed out in earlier posts the power supply in the Yamaha might not be up to it at high levels especially with a transmission line speaker making things hard work; I do appreciate it is a 'budget' amp but it's a pretty darn good one.

Taking things onward I was talking to someone at Vincent yesterday about what I have and want, and he was almost alarmed at the fact I have no mains conditioner. He explained that both my issues ( low level detail and high level 'clipping' ) would be considerably affected ie improved by fitting one and he sort of insisted before upgrading the amp to fit a conditioner. Vincent do make one and suggested sending me one on demo terms when I'm ready to try but at £420 I wouldn't buy before try! There are quite a few cheaper ones about with good reports so that's the first port of call I think.. and should I demo the Vincent?

Thanks again

 

[CnoEvil]

Be careful with mains conditioners, as IME they are not a catch all solution to everything that's wrong with a system.

They can change the sound and not always for the better. Many manufacturers suggest that you stay away from them and plug the amp directly into the mains...unless you have very poor power.

I have generally found that conditioning is expensive to get right and prefer Balanced Mains Transformers.

As always in these things, you are right to try it for yourself, as it can be system and location dependant.

 

[ID.]

Funny that, oh and Vincent just happen to sell a power conditioner.

The cheaper ones may be worthwhile if you have poor mains, but most advise to use them on your CD player. I've heard some very expensive ones like mentioned, but really I wouldn't bother unless I was running some very pricey kit.

At the level you are playing at you'll get the biggest changed from better speakers and amp.

 

[gasolin]

I think a valve amp may sound too 'lush'..

The best general advice I can give you is, don't make assumptions - not about power rating; not about how Valve Amps sound; not about Class D; not about star ratings in reviews or fan based support for products, that happen to be flavour of the month....so don't rule anything in (or out), until you've personally heard it.

I have a 35W amp, that through speakers with a Sensitivity of around 90 dBs, goes louder in a large room than my ears can handle.

The notion that all Valve amps sound lush, dark and syrupy, is misplaced. They can sound exciting, dramatic and dynamic, but may need a little more care over speaker suitability.

+1

At the risk of sounding like I'm playing a game of 'Mine is smaller than yours', I have a 24 Watt SET Valve Amp that plays frighteningly loud and dynamic with a pair of 88 dB speakers....

I have a marantz PM6005 with 45 watt rms and 87 db sensitive Boston a25 and that's pretty loud to

It doesn't take alot of power to play loud

 

[gasolin]

You possibly mean you need an amp that produces as much volume as the others you have used at 3 o'clock but at around 11 o'clock. Or an amp that has a good usable range upto 3 o'clock without distortion. The CA power amp can supply much power. Increase of 3 db requires double power, 10 db ten times.

Solution Rottvell in line attenuator -10 or 20 db Then he can have a vider range of the wolume before distortion

 

[gasolin]

the issue but I'm trying to throw every factor I can think of at this thread, things will become confused I understand that. Thinking about things today I really don't think I could live without tone controls even though most of the time they are bypassed on the Yamaha, unless I keep that as a headphone only amp (albeit a bit OTT) which then puts a 'no tone controls' amp in the running. Ringing some dealers tomorrow to arrange a demo on the Naim, Arcam and Cambridge and possibly be swayed by something I never considered.

Tone controls/eq is nice to have but not a must have.

If you have to use them you might not have the right combination of amp and speakers

 

[paulkebab]

and without getting a 'scope on the mains it's pretty much pointless, plus as you say they can adversely affect things. I don't suffer from pops crackles or other random noise so I think I'll pass on that and just invest in a serious amp. I auditioned some Wharfedales at £3k but was disappointed, the overall sound I have is great it's just the lack of low-volume detail and high-volume clip; in-between is heaven!

Gasolin I don't get any distortion, the amp starts to clip just as I want to nail something in particular in an extremely loud way. Tone controls are 99% for the cans and occasionally for the speakers a little treble lift for poorly mastered stuff. As I said I can use the Yamaha as a headphone amp and go for a toneless amp which opens quite a few doors.

Thanks to all for the conditioner advice.

 

[paulkebab]

and it's the Vincent SV237 hybrid. Even my partner is amazed with how it sounds and looks, IMO worth every penny, only had it for a day so it's still burning in. Not the 'cosy warm' valve sound I was expecting (thankfully) but smooth, detailed and fabulous textures and layers, something the Yamaha can only mish-mash into part confusion and almost colouration at times on difficult material. OK at this price point it should be damn good.. I think it's better than that, and better than the Cambridge and Arcam offerings I heard - all very nice but didn't quite present themselves in the way the Vincent does. All to my ears of course!

Thanks to all for advice, pointers and options, and a few giggles on the way!

 

[CnoEvil]

A good Hybrid amp is a great way to go. Congratualons.

 

[iQ Speakers]

It's a good choice, and great value. Love the look especially in silver! And you know you need to do those speakers justice, I'd wager you almost have the best pound for sound system out there.

 

[Paulq]

My advice is not to get hung up on power, but the ability to nearly double the Watts as Impedance halves...which is the sign of a good power supply.

Brands I would consider are: Ayre, Musical Fidelity, Pathos, Arcam, Rega, Creek, Electrocompaniet, Hegel and Abrahamsen.....or even Icon Audio.

I have wrestled with this whole notion of power/speaker ratio for some time and, to be honest, I still don't understand it but this summary does make it a lot simpler. Thank you.

I am still after an amp that's gonna be versatile enough to drive something like Monitor Audio Silver 1's and also an intended purchase of something like Dynaudio Contour S 1.4 which is a 4 ohm speaker at 85db.

Would something like a NAD C326BEE (Dynamic Power 100w into 8 ohms, 150w into 4 ohms) or a Naim NAC C272/NAP250 Pre/power combo have enough for these if I decide to go with them? Am not sure whether continuous power or dynamic power is the best gauge?

Thanks again for making it more understandable.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have wrestled with this whole notion of power/speaker ratio for some time and, to be honest, I still don't understand it but this summary does make it a lot simpler. Thank you.

I am still after an amp that's gonna be versatile enough to drive something like Monitor Audio Silver 1's and also an intended purchase of something like Dynaudio Contour S 1.4 which is a 4 ohm speaker at 85db.

Would something like a NAD C326BEE (100w into 8 ohms, 150w into 4 ohms) or a Naim NAC C272/NAP250 Pre/power combo have enough for these if I decide to go with them?

Thanks again for making it more understandable.

Both Nad and Naim are good at driving speakers, so yes, they should be fine...but there is no substitute for listening.

Remember, not only do speakers have a constantly changing demand for current, but so does music that has dramatic dynamic swings (Classical, for example) and hefty bass....all of which can put substantial demands on an amp's power supply.

 

[radiorog]

My advice is not to get hung up on power, but the ability to nearly double the Watts as Impedance halves...which is the sign of a good power supply.

Brands I would consider are: Ayre, Musical Fidelity, Pathos, Arcam, Rega, Creek, Electrocompaniet, Hegel and Abrahamsen.....or even Icon Audio.

I have wrestled with this whole notion of power/speaker ratio for some time and, to be honest, I still don't understand it but this summary does make it a lot simpler. Thank you.

I am still after an amp that's gonna be versatile enough to drive something like Monitor Audio Silver 1's and also an intended purchase of something like Dynaudio Contour S 1.4 which is a 4 ohm speaker at 85db.

Would something like a NAD C326BEE (Dynamic Power 100w into 8 ohms, 150w into 4 ohms) or a Naim NAC C272/NAP250 Pre/power combo have enough for these if I decide to go with them? Am not sure whether continuous power or dynamic power is the best gauge?

Thanks again for making it more understandable.

NAD 326 = 50w into 8 ohm