Network infrastructure

[Pedro2]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality? I’m talking switches, Ethernet cable, media converters etc. This area is a potential minefield for heated debate and I’m asking because a recent communication with a dealer had links to high end (expensive) switches.
I have no intention of spending 100s/1000s on such kit. However, I have changed my existing switch as well as the cabling (at relatively low cost) and the results have been audible (and improved). Interesting

 

[jjbomber]

There are hundreds of cable threads on a similar vein. Basically there are those who can afford better cables and they will tell you the difference. Then there are those who can't afford them and they will swear blind that there isn't a difference. In true 50 shades of grey fashion, they'll even tell you ta ask your wife to blindfold you and do various tests on you with different leads!

Not sure if you know the old parable, but there are two types of people in the World. After going to the toilet, half wipe themselves from back to front, while half wipe from front to back. Neither know that the other half exist. That is the World of cables in a nutshell. Half claim they can hear a difference. Half claim they can't. Never the twain shall meet.

 

[abacus]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality? I’m talking switches, Ethernet cable, media converters etc. This area is a potential minefield for heated debate and I’m asking because a recent communication with a dealer had links to high end (expensive) switches.
I have no intention of spending 100s/1000s on such kit. However, I have changed my existing switch as well as the cabling (at relatively low cost) and the results have been audible (and improved). Interesting

Purely the placebo effect.

 

[Tinman1952]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality? I’m talking switches, Ethernet cable, media converters etc. This area is a potential minefield for heated debate and I’m asking because a recent communication with a dealer had links to high end (expensive) switches.
I have no intention of spending 100s/1000s on such kit. However, I have changed my existing switch as well as the cabling (at relatively low cost) and the results have been audible (and improved). Interesting

Well I have to confess in a moment of madness many years ago I bought a £49 iFi iPower PSU for my Netgear GS108 switch....but that's as far as I'm prepared to go.....🙄

 

[jjbomber]

Did it make any difference?

Yes, he had £49 less in his bank account!

 

[daveh75]

There are hundreds of cable threads on a similar vein. Basically there are those who can afford better cables and they will tell you the difference.

There are those who have more money than sense who'll believe any old BS thats presented to them you mean?

Then there are those who can't afford them and they will swear blind that there isn't a difference.

There are those with the sense/scepticism to not just to believe in every bit of audiophoolery going

In true 50 shades of grey fashion, they'll even tell you ta ask your wife to blindfold you and do various tests on you with different leads!

Doesn't happen.

Unlike the unbelievable number of audiophools with seemingly compliant wives, who know to walk in just as a cable/component has been changed, and comment, unprompted, how much better the music is sounding 🙄

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Beyond wired network connections where possible, I personally don't bother.

 

[DiggyGun]

There are those who have more money than sense who'll believe any old BS thats presented to them you mean?



There are those with the sense/scepticism to not just to believe in every bit of audiophoolery going



Doesn't happen.

Unlike the unbelievable number of audiophools with seemingly compliant wives, who know to walk in just as a cable/component has been changed, and comment, unprompted, how much better the music is sounding 🙄

Trying to establish what side of the fence you’re sitting on.

But doesn’t answer the OPs question.

DG…

 

[JDL]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality? I’m talking switches, Ethernet cable, media converters etc. This area is a potential minefield for heated debate and I’m asking because a recent communication with a dealer had links to high end (expensive) switches.
I have no intention of spending 100s/1000s on such kit. However, I have changed my existing switch as well as the cabling (at relatively low cost) and the results have been audible (and improved). Interesting

What kind of switch do you mean, please? Out of interest.

 

[DiggyGun]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality? I’m talking switches, Ethernet cable, media converters etc. This area is a potential minefield for heated debate and I’m asking because a recent communication with a dealer had links to high end (expensive) switches.
I have no intention of spending 100s/1000s on such kit. However, I have changed my existing switch as well as the cabling (at relatively low cost) and the results have been audible (and improved). Interesting

There will be many responses, ranging from yes and they are worthwhile to no and you’re wasting your money.

I currently use Chord Epic and Clearway streaming cables, English Electric EE8 and EE1.

For me, it made a big difference and I preferred the sound. But it is my system and ears. However, others may disagree which is their opinion and that is also fine with me

Find a friendly dealer that will let you demo the products at home before buying or one that offer thirty day returns. Try them, if you like them, keep them, if you don’t like them return them and no harm done.

Part of the fun of Hi-Fi is trying different things. If we were all the same, life would be so dull.

Just enjoy it and have fun doing so.

DG…

 

[daveh75]

Trying to establish what side of the fence you’re sitting on.

But doesn’t answer the OPs question.

DG…

I build networks for a living!

 

[Tinman1952]

Did it make any difference?

Not that I could notice. It was one of those (cheap) "just in case it helps..." purchases....but I left it attached. 🙂

 

[DCarmi]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality?

The point of a network is to get bits from source to receiver, intact and unadulterated. The only thing that can affect sound quality is if the bits are not getting to the streamer reliably fast enough, around 1.5Mbit for CD quality.

The network is just passing bits. You would not want your network to processes your documents to leave out random text or leave out pixels in your photos, would you?

It is your DAC that does stuff to those bits when converting the digital stream back to an analogue one.

 

[Pedro2]

What kind of switch do you mean, please? Out of interest.

I replaced one TP link 1008D with two D Link DES108 and this cut down the lengths of Ethernet cable I was needing to run. I also replaced a couple of patch CAT8 shielded cables with CAT5e UTP. The switches cost £40 x2 and the cable cost £11.

 

[record_spot]

Waste of time. Reposition your speakers for a bigger audible change.

 

[DCarmi]

CAT8 cables are usually used for short runs in data centres i.e. switch to switch or switch to server. They are high bandwidth with up to 40Gbps data rate. Not ideal for home usage and not a match for either switch. Cat 5e or 6a is a better match.

I gave up on dragging cables about years ago, since I don't have servers or NAS devices. I've been using an AC3000 Mesh Wifi system for the last 4 years and not looked back. The satellites even have gigabit ethernet should I feel the need. The Satellites talks to each other and the router over a separate 3 gigabit, 5GHz band.

My Wiims can eat all the data they need, even if others are streaming 4k video. No buffering unless the ISP is at fault.

 

[Tinman1952]

The point of a network is to get bits from source to receiver, intact and unadulterated. The only thing that can affect sound quality is if the bits are not getting to the streamer reliably fast enough, around 1.5Mbit for CD quality.

The network is just passing bits. You would not want your network to processes your documents to leave out random text or leave out pixels in your photos, would you?

It is your DAC that does stuff to those bits when converting the digital stream back to an analogue one.

If only this were true....and the quality of the power supply/ level of electrical 'noise' had no effect on Hi-Fi components....🤔
I remember many years ago the founder of Auralic saying he preferred a Wi-Fi connection as it removed the possibility of interference/noise on the ethernet connection.
Some will say this is nonsense...but his products are universally praised.

 

[daveh75]

I remember many years ago the founder of Auralic saying he preferred a Wi-Fi connection as it removed the possibility of interference/noise on the ethernet connection.

If only ethernet was galvanically isolated by design... Oh wait, it is!

 

[abacus]

If only this were true....and the quality of the power supply/ level of electrical 'noise' had no effect on Hi-Fi components....🤔
I remember many years ago the founder of Auralic saying he preferred a Wi-Fi connection as it removed the possibility of interference/noise on the ethernet connection.
Some will say this is nonsense...but his products are universally praised.

Yes, it does, unfortunately Wi-Fi has even more interference, however it all gets filtered out by any equipment that has been designed correctly, so it makes no difference what you use.

Bill

 

[Tinman1952]

If only ethernet was galvanically isolated by design... Oh wait, it is!

Yes the ethernet connection is transformer isolated against surges, but don't Cat 6 cables/devices have a grounded sheath...? Plus the electrical power to the switch itself and it's internal electrical components are not isolated.

 

[daveh75]

Yes the ethernet connection is transformer isolated against surges, but don't Cat 6 cables/devices have a grounded sheath...? Plus the electrical power to the switch itself and it's internal electrical components are not isolated.

Shielded cable is completely unnecessary in a domestic setting.

 

[Witterings]

Has anyone explored the use of different network kit to improve sound quality? I’m talking switches, Ethernet cable, media converters etc. This area is a potential minefield for heated debate and I’m asking because a recent communication with a dealer had links to high end (expensive) switches.
I have no intention of spending 100s/1000s on such kit. However, I have changed my existing switch as well as the cabling (at relatively low cost) and the results have been audible (and improved). Interesting

You need a single optical or coax cable plugged directly into your service providers main router straight to your streamer .... if you don't have this, you're probably better off selling all you equipment and giving up listening to music ever again.

You also need a power seperate power supply that comes directly from the power station that's not shared with anyone else that may introduce an interference.

I thought it was standard that nobody could join this forum without providing evidence this was how they had their network set up?.

If you haven't already established these bare essentials please ping over you credit card details and I can get it all arranged as a matter of urgency .... should only take 48 hrs.

 

[DCarmi]

I remember many years ago the founder of Auralic saying he preferred a Wi-Fi connection as it removed the possibility of interference/noise on the ethernet connection.

Your comment interested me so I dug. I found the page on the Auralic site:
https://us.auralic.com/pages/wifi-or-ethernet

"The primary disadvantage of a wired connection like ethernet is the potential for induced noise due to wire’s antenna-like tendencies."

I have no idea of the validity of the statement but it was not something that had previously occurred to me.

I found an paper by a Cyber Security researcher (and I have not read the full paper) but the abstract describes how he could decode data being transmitted from isolated system using the EM waves emanating from ethernet cables. Basically the researcher is saying that he could determine the bits being sent from the EM radiation emitted from the cable. Since there is radiation being emitted it could conceivably affect other electrical components. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2110.00104.pdf is the link to the paper.

I have also seen postings on other sites where people have anecdotally reported that ethernet sounded "muddier" than wifi.

To be fair, as has already been pointed out, by far the biggest change to the quality of sound would come from changing hifi components or repositioning the speakers.

 

[Tinman1952]

Your comment interested me so I dug. I found the page on the Auralic site:
https://us.auralic.com/pages/wifi-or-ethernet

"The primary disadvantage of a wired connection like ethernet is the potential for induced noise due to wire’s antenna-like tendencies."

I have no idea of the validity of the statement but it was not something that had previously occurred to me.

I found an paper by a Cyber Security researcher (and I have not read the full paper) but the abstract describes how he could decode data being transmitted from isolated system using the EM waves emanating from ethernet cables. Basically the researcher is saying that he could determine the bits being sent from the EM radiation emitted from the cable. Since there is radiation being emitted it could conceivably affect other electrical components. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2110.00104.pdf is the link to the paper.

I have also seen postings on other sites where people have anecdotally reported that ethernet sounded "muddier" than wifi.

To be fair, as has already been pointed out, by far the biggest change to the quality of sound would come from changing hifi components or repositioning the speakers.

Thank you for your excellent response 🙂 It's a shame more people are not so open minded!

 

[abacus]

Thank you for your excellent response 🙂 It's a shame more people are not so open minded!

All valid, however the data sent along the network cables is digital, so either gets there or it doesn't, plus there are checks and balances in place to make sure the data does not get corrupted, so adding digital info into the cable will just not be recognised, and if it is analogue interference, it will not interfere with the data stream accept to possibly block it completely.
AS to noise getting to the equipment, any equipment that is designed correctly will automatically block it, so not an issue.
As to the cybersecurity part, obtaining information from cable is as old as the hills, go back to the 80s (Or possibly earlier) and users outside a build could see what was on the computer screens by using a special receiver to pick up going along the video cables. (With digital it is normally encrypted if the data is sensitive so even you can read the signal you cannot see what data is in there)

Bill