Need to upgrade AVR for Atmos and better stereo sound

[newlash09]

Hi All! Iam presently using a Sony STR-DN850 with a Qacoustics Q7000i setup in a 12x10 feet room. Thus, viewing disance to the Telly is about 9 feet. Although this setup sounds good enough for movies, the stereo performace sounds tinny and hollow on 2 Ch.stereo. Besides, the Sony is a 7.2 channel AVR without Atmos or HDCP 2.2. So, Iam looking to upgrade my system as below :

1) Add bookshelf speakers for front main channels to improve stereo performance ( Maybe Q3050 or concept20). And the present Q7000lri speaker pair will be shifted to the ceiling for a ATMOS 5.1.2 setup.

2) Upgrade the amp to a ATMOS enabled 7 channel AVR with music performance in stereo being a priority, for a budget between 600 to 1000 pounds. Had been considering between the Marantz SR6010 & Denon AVR X4200W. Both are costing around 600 pounds on richer sounds.

So, below are my concerns :

1) After reading on various forums, I have come to the conclusion that AV amps are inherently not as musical as stereo or integrated amps. So, incase i add a power amp like marantz MM7025 to the front channels, using the AVR's pre-outs, will this improve musical performance to that of an equivalent stereo amp. ( Considering that i go for a Marantz SR6010 + MM7025 or MM7055 ) Even though i will not need the extra power to drive the bookshelf speakers.

2) Since my room is small, i was considering an ATMOS 5.1.2 setup. Will I be missing out by not going for a 5.1.4 setup. Will the difference between 5.1.2 & 5.1.4 be felt in my small room, as the seating position will be right up on backwall.

3) Which AVR would you recommend in my budget. Iam open to all suggestions.

4) Will the difference in sound quality be apparent, coming from a budget Sony STR-DN850, or should i wait for a few more years before jumping on the Atmos bandwagon, as I mainly use Netflix, and there is presently no streaming content in Atmos format

​5) As a side thought, will i need a second sub in my room of 10 x 12 feet, or will this be a overkill.

Many thanks for your suggestions.

 

[bigboss]

1) You need to demo for yourself. Both Marantz and Denon are brilliant for music and you may be hard pressed to notice a difference as compared to a power amplifier with your speakers. Besides, Audyssey (present in both Denon and Marantz) only allows you to select either overhead speakers or rear surrounds if you add a power amplifier for Atmos, as far as I can remember when I set my system up. I may be wrong, but worth checking.

2) The main difference between 2 and 4 speakers is how convincing the Atmos effects are. Having 4 speakers will give a sense of direction to the sound, like a helicopter flying over your head.

3) Both Denon and Marantz are hard to beat. I would suggest Marantz SR7010 which has 9 channels of amplification for 5.1.4 sound, so you won't need additional amplifier.

4) Coming from a Sony, you should notice a significant improvement in sound, regardless of Atmos. Have you got plans to invest in a blu ray player? You're not getting lossless (HD) sound on Netflix. For the ultimate sound quality, blu ray is the way to go.

5) It depends. There are advantages of having a second subwoofer, but I would suggest you concentrate on setting your system up first, and then decide if you need another subwoofer.

 

[Leeps]

One little observation with your plans. If you want to add traditional bookshelf speakers for left & right duties, that's fine, but I'd thoroughly recommend purchasing a centre speaker that matches your new bookshelf speakers: ideally with identical drivers.

Your current satellite speakers would be ok for rear and ceiling duties, but the front soundstage would sound awful with a Q7000 centre channel. You'll find that ordinary bookshelf speakers add a great deal to the midrange and to voices in particular. With so much vocal content being routed through the centre channel on movies, this really needs to match the same scale and authority that your left and right channels can muster.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Hi All! Iam presently using a Sony STR-DN850 with a Qacoustics Q7000i setup in a 12x10 feet room. Thus, viewing disance to the Telly is about 9 feet. Although this setup sounds good enough for movies, the stereo performace sounds tinny and hollow on 2 Ch.stereo. Besides, the Sony is a 7.2 channel AVR without Atmos or HDCP 2.2. So, Iam looking to upgrade my system as below :

1) Add bookshelf speakers for front main channels to improve stereo performance ( Maybe Q3050 or concept20). And the present Q7000lri speaker pair will be shifted to the ceiling for a ATMOS 5.1.2 setup.

Go for standmounters or even floorstanders (small ones for that size room) rather than bookshelf speakers. Go to your local hifi shoppe and listen to contenders rather than relying on other peoples' opinions (however well intended).

I'm not sure how bookshelf speakers nailed or screwed (or duct taped or velcroed or ...) to the ceiling will look, however they will do quite welll enough for Atmos overheads. DO NOT get conned into buying those "Atmos" speakers that bounce sounds off the ceiling - they don't work very well, if at all.

Consider, instead, concentrating on DTS:X and using your current bookshelf speakers either as halfway-down-the-room surround sounds at ear level, or mounting them high up near the ceiling and room corners as front height speakers. Angle them downwards towards your listenign position if you can.

2) Upgrade the amp to a ATMOS enabled 7 channel AVR with music performance in stereo being a priority, for a budget between 600 to 1000 pounds. Had been considering between the Marantz SR6010 & Denon AVR X4200W. Both are costing around 600 pounds on richer sounds.

The Marantz and Denon are probably very similar under the lid, being from the same "Stable" as it were, Marantz assembled in China, Denon in Japan. I would audition both. The Marantz, I know, can be upgraded to nine channels later by adding a stereo power amp, not sure about the Denon.

So, below are my concerns :

1) After reading on various forums, I have come to the conclusion that AV amps are inherently not as musical as stereo or integrated amps. So, incase i add a power amp like marantz MM7025 to the front channels, using the AVR's pre-outs, will this improve musical performance to that of an equivalent stereo amp. ( Considering that i go for a Marantz SR6010 + MM7025 or MM7055 ) Even though i will not need the extra power to drive the bookshelf speakers.

I think it's most likely to be the power amp stages that let down AV receivers when it comes to "proper stereo" duties. The DACs should be more than capable of decoding anything these days, the pre-amp stages on the Denon and Marantz should be pretty good, but the power amps probably don't have the dynamics or headroom for proper stereo duties. A proper stereo, Pound for Pound, will still outshine an AV receiver, however (IMHO opinion of course). IF you want AV and "proper stereo" you either have to compromise or spend loads of cash. Your choice.

2) Since my room is small, i was considering an ATMOS 5.1.2 setup. Will I be missing out by not going for a 5.1.4 setup. Will the difference between 5.1.2 & 5.1.4 be felt in my small room, as the seating position will be right up on backwall.

In a small room, your ears probably won't appreciate the "tracking" of, say, the helicopters in Apocalypse Now, the same way they would in a long, very long, room. My media room is 19 feet long, and I have 7.2.4, and I'm struggling.

3) Which AVR would you recommend in my budget. Iam open to all suggestions.

I have the Marantz 7010 and I'm delighted with it. It's little sister, the Marantz 6010, will give you 7 channels straight out of the box, expandable to 9 with the addition of a modest stereo power amp for either the front left and right or rear surround / ceiling speakers later..

4) Will the difference in sound quality be apparent, coming from a budget Sony STR-DN850, or should i wait for a few more years before jumping on the Atmos bandwagon, as I mainly use Netflix, and there is presently no streaming content in Atmos format

Almost certainly. And no. Most receivers now come ready for Atmos and DTS:X, kind of like buying a VCR that would play both VHS and Betamax tapes. DTS:X may win out in cinemas because it's more difficult to fit speakers in a ceiling (especially if it's in a listed building with an ornate plaster ceiling), whereas putting them down the walls is relatively easy. Atmos may win out for home use if there's enough uptake, but either way, there's no real point in delaying much longer. One or both formats will survive (until the next latest and greatest comes along), or we all get Star Trek TNG "holo-decks" instead.

​

5) As a side thought, will i need a second sub in my room of 10 x 12 feet, or will this be a overkill.

Assuming it's a decent 10 incher or bigger, I would think one sub would be enough in that room, especialy with "bass reinforcement" working to deepen the frequency response.

Spend your cash on a decent pair of front speakers and a centre speaker to match them instead.

 

[newlash09]

I was actually torn between the sr7010 and sr6010. But online prices for the sr7010 seem to be in the 900 pounds range. So I can stretch that much. Especially since the sound quality will be a significant jump from my budget Sony.

Iam presently using a pioneer bdp450 , but dont have any plans to upgrade to a 4k Blu-ray player anytime soon . Will wait till the prices come down to a reasonable level.

Since I will have a significant outlay for the book shelf speakers and the AVR, will hold on to the second sub for now. Thanks again.

 

[newlash09]

Something went wrong with my browser, and I only saw big boss's reply before posting my above reply.

Will surely consider small floor Stander's, but will be very difficult to convince the wife. She was under the impression that it would be a discreet setup with the Q7000i. But just about agreed for the book shelves. Will be difficult to persuade her on the floor Stander's, as the room also does duty as our living room.

Noted leeps. My simple idea to just add book shelf speakers is quickly turning into a full fledged revision of my entire setup. Will give it serious consideration now. But I also have to consider aesthetics, so iam now completely unsure if I really want to start on this route, considering that my present setup is less than a year old.

But all the same, thanks for all your well intentioned advise. Now I have plenty to chew on for the next couple of days.

 

[bigboss]

If you have a subwoofer, you can get away without a floorstander.

 

[newlash09]

As I got back on the boat and now at sea . After going through all that has been suggested. I have decided to go with the marantz sr7010. And after reading reviews of pioneer elite 73 lr speakers on American websites. Iam considering going for them for front LR channels. Though it has been strongly suggested to best avoid their ilk. I think it will be a necessary sacrifice considering that it will be in my only living / entertainment room. And it will spare me the ordeal of mounting one pair of ceiling speakers atleast.

But iam still in a dilemma and not decided on the same, as the what hi-fi review of the same speakers rubbished them completely. I can live with the inferior atmos sound. But really don't want to sacrifixe on 2 channel music performance.

Has anyone heard them before ? Or can someone suggest which make and model of speakers I should look to pair with the marantz sr7010 in a 10 x 12 ft room. I will have to look at L,R and center channel as advised by leeps. Thanks.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

can someone suggest which make and model of speakers I should look to pair with the marantz sr7010 in a 10 x 12 ft room. I will have to look at L,R and center channel as advised by leeps. Thanks.

What's your budget and where are you located?

I would always opt for floor standers personally, as a decent pair of stands for stand-mount speakers aren't cheap to begin with.

Unless you're going for a surround sound speaker package, I would spend as much as I can reasonably afford on the front left and right, then the centre, then use any bookshelf speakers off eBay for the surrounds. Don't get conned into buying those Atmos-enabled speakers with cones in the tops designed to bounce sound off the ceiling. They rarely, if ever, work well unless properly set up, in a room with the right kind of ceiling, for a person sat in excactly the right spot...

And if you can't or won't (or aren't allowed to) fit proper in- or even on- ceiling speakers for Atmos, concentrate on a DTS:X implementation (more speakers around - and up - the walls, fewer, if any, in the ceiling).

 

[newlash09]

Iam a seafarer from India. And I usually purchase my hi-fi from Ipswich in the UK whenever my ship's voyage takes me there. Usually from seven oaks or richer sounds (they are the only shops I know in the vicinity). I first started off with a cheap audiopro avanto 5.0 setup. But I found the floor Stander's to be boomy in my small room. Thus, I next purchased a qacoustics q7000i speaker package. I find these tiny satellites to be inadequate for 2.0 channel stereo. Thus, iam looking for something in between now. A stand mount or a book shelf. I had recently auditioned the monitor audio gold gx50 and liked them. Though it will be difficult to lug back the centre channel speaker all the way back to India. Plan was to shift the qacoustics front LR satellite speakers to the ceiling as atmos speakers. And use the monitor audio's for front left and right. I also plan to add a marantz pm8005 from the sr7010 preOuts to increase the musicality in 2.0 channel stereo if it helps. I have never heard any proper hi-fi setups before. So difficult to decide on speaker makes and their signature sound. My stay in UK is usually too short to audition. And there are no hi-fi shops nearby where I live in India. So I usually decide on my purchase, and then make the trip from felixstowe to Ipswich to buy my gear. And that is the reason, why Iam lost when it comes to my speaker purchase. Atleast I've heard the monitor golds once, albeit for a short duration, driven by my bluesound power node. And my budget could stretch from 1000 to 2000 pounds for the front left, right and center speaker. But I also need them to be good looking, as they sit bang center in my small living room. Thanks.

 

[Leeps]

I know you mentioned in an earlier post that aesthetics and the impact on the room were important to you. I used to own the Monitor Audio Gold Gx50's and GXC150, which use identical cabinets to the current models.

The centre speaker is huge - much bigger than the Monitor Audio Silver Centre. It's VERY deep (front to back), so you'd need to make sure you have enough space for it at home. Check the measurements on the Monitor Audio website. Visually, the whole combo dominated the room. They were beautifully finished speakers and lovely to look at, but if you wanted them to visually shrink into the background, then they won't.

Personally I didn't get on with the Golds in the long term. I prefer the Gold dome tweeters of the MA Radius, MA Silver and MA Apex ranges over the ribbon tweeters of the MA Gold series. If it was my money, I'd save some and go for the MA Silver 1 & MA Silver centre.

In your size room, the MA Silver 1's would be plenty.

 

[newlash09]

Had never considered them before. Thanks for the suggestion. Hope they look as good as the gold gx50's. Will surely check them out.

 

[Nathan]

The silver 1s are awesome. If you want to upgrade later to floor standers you can get the Silver 6s and use the 1s as surrounds. That's what I did

 

[newlash09]

Speakers for front left and right channels. Will look for the matching centre now. These are supposed to be smooth and a bit laid back. So will the marantz sr7010 put me to sleep. Or am I better of with the pioneer sc lx 59. This is supposed to have a punchier sound. Will this be a better match for my front speakers for music in 2 channel stereo.

I also have a pioneer bdp450 player with only HDMI and optical outs. Last time I tried playing a audio CD via HDMI into my Sony str-dn 850 , I wasn't very impressed. In fact I felt the timing of the tracks I knew very well to be wrong.

So will the dac in the pioneer sc lx 59 be better, especially as it has a pqls lock system to go with the pioneer bdp player. Or will I be better off, using optical out from the bdp450 into something like the arcam rlink.

Thanks for your thoughts. I will be going only for a 5.1.2 atmos to start with. So iam now divided between the pioneer sc lx 59 or the marantz sr7010.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

No experience on which to offer a useful opinion on the above, sorry.

 

[buzz_lightclick]

Speakers for front left and right channels. Will look for the matching centre now. These are supposed to be smooth and a bit laid back. So will the marantz sr7010 put me to sleep. Or am I better of with the pioneer sc lx 59. This is supposed to have a punchier sound. Will this be a better match for my front speakers for music in 2 channel stereo.

I also have a pioneer bdp450 player with only HDMI and optical outs. Last time I tried playing a audio CD via HDMI into my Sony str-dn 850 , I wasn't very impressed. In fact I felt the timing of the tracks I knew very well to be wrong.

So will the dac in the pioneer sc lx 59 be better, especially as it has a pqls lock system to go with the pioneer bdp player. Or will I be better off, using optical out from the bdp450 into something like the arcam rlink.

Thanks for your thoughts. I will be going only for a 5.1.2 atmos to start with. So iam now divided between the pioneer sc lx 59 or the marantz sr7010.

ive read a few reviews on Amazon which criticise the build quality of the Marantz, which would put me off. It might have all the bells and whistles in terms of features, but if the thing can break easily it's no good.

 

[bigboss]

I've got the Marantz SR7009, and cannot fault the build quality at all.

Marantz vs Pioneer is a personal choice. Both sound different. I love my Marantz and didn't particularly like the Pioneer with Monitor Audio speakers. But there are people who love the Pioneer.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I've got the 7010 and am very happy.
If you get around to a 7.2.4 setup you can add a power amp (or amps) to drive either the front left and right or rear overheads.