Need help finding affordable 92-93db speakers

[SpursGator]

Looking at the OP's original need, bookshelf speakers with 92-93 sensitivity. It is important to keep in mind a few things. First, as has already been said, 'normal' bookshelf speakers won't get anywhere near this. So if you find speakers that can do this, there must have been some trade-offs in the design. There is no free lunch with physics. So what you should be asking is, what will I be giving up?

One way to get high sensitivity is to connect additional drivers in parallel, for example. But the cost would be much lower impedance, which would push your low-powered amp much harder, thus defeating the purpose of having highly efficient speakers - it's like turning up the volume. Beware the Klipsches that you found, unless they are 40 year-old Klipschorns (which would work great for you BTW except for the small room part).

Generally speaking, at a constant level of impedance, a speaker can be tuned to a higher sensitivity. The trade off is going to be bass extension. As the sensitivity goes up, the bass roll-off moves higher. And the only way to compensate for lack of bass is a bigger box. You can have a speaker with 98 db/2.8v sensitivity, easy impedance, and good bass, but it's going to be huge. Size, bass, and efficiency - you can't have all three.

With a very low powered SET amp, you are in a specialist corner of hifi where people build and sell some very unconventional speakers. But IMO there are two alternatives that are more realistic than a 93 db bookshelf. One idea (the cheaper alternative) would be to buy some mass-market polypropylene driver-based speakers with a sensitivity around 89-90 db/2.8v. I am thinking about the likes of the Roth OLi1 or Boston A25. These speakers have no real bass to speak of, but they are engaging, lively speakers that cost very little and are efficient and easy to drive.

The other option would be to look for some really well-behaved 90db audiophile speakers. I am thinking in particular of ProAc here (e.g., the Response D Two). They are pricy but sound amazing with tube amps. Since you say you don't play that loud, I think that you will love this combo. There are a lot of ProAcs being driven by tube amps - they are very docile speakers that can do quite a lot with little power.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[sthomas048]

sthomas - I think the warmer electronics would definitely sit well with the BX2s! BTW I did not find them sharp at all, just very clear and with very good, tight bass. I also found them very flexible - I had mine <20cm from the rear wall on bedside pedestals! I'll bet they'll sound even better atop proper stands.

I just found them a bit lacking in 'musicality' or what David@FrankHarvey would more accurately and dismissively term euphonism :rofl: , but upon changing sources it seemed to confirm to me they do indeed work better.

I can also confirm they sound much better when you're sitting up rather than lying down!!! :rofl: I blame their tweeter grill for that.

Um, I never lie down listening to music, um, moving on !

Yeh so those BX2s are definately on my watch list. I have tentatively added one or two floorstanders, as a last option due to floor space.

Thanks.

 

[sthomas048]

With a very low powered SET amp, you are in a specialist corner of hifi where people build and sell some very unconventional speakers. But IMO there are two alternatives that are more realistic than a 93 db bookshelf. One idea (the cheaper alternative) would be to buy some mass-market polypropylene driver-based speakers with a sensitivity around 89-90 db/2.8v. I am thinking about the likes of the Roth OLi1 or Boston A25. These speakers have no real bass to speak of, but they are engaging, lively speakers that cost very little and are efficient and easy to drive.

Yes, just browsing around various forums I have come across some very unconventional speakers. All credit to them, some of those built by their own hands. Ah, now this is very helpful what you mention about these cheaper, alternative option speakers. Your reply has been very informative to me. Im browsing What Hi-Fi reviews for just db ratings thinking "this is hopeless". But you mention effeciency and speakers that are easy to drive. Im not very tech minded and so the two speakers you list - Roth and Boston Accoustics are infact ones Ive always fancied but dismissed previously.

So those two will be checked out promtly !

The other option would be to look for some really well-behaved 90db audiophile speakers. I am thinking in particular of ProAc here (e.g., the Response D Two). They are pricy but sound amazing with tube amps. Since you say you don't play that loud, I think that you will love this combo. There are a lot of ProAcs being driven by tube amps - they are very docile speakers that can do quite a lot with little power.

Hope this is helpful.

ProAc is simply out of my league cost wise. Unfortunately. But I do see where you are coming from, they would be ideal to match up with most valve amplifiers. You have been very helpful, I cant thank you enough !

 

[sthomas048]

SpursGator - In terms of efficiency and easy to drive-ness with v low power amps, would the Boston A26 be worth a look too ?

 

[CnoEvil]

If you can stretch to some Audio Note AX-1s ( £358 ), that would be my choice.....they are designed for the job.

http://www.audioflair.co.uk/products-page-2/loud-speakers/audio-note-ax-1-entry-level-bookshelf-nearfield-speaker/

 

[sthomas048]

Oh hadnt thought of Audio Note. But I cant seem to find much info on those AX-1s. No reviews or specs etc;

 

[SpursGator]

SpursGator - In terms of efficiency and easy to drive-ness with v low power amps, would the Boston A26 be worth a look too ?

Sure - the whole range is cut from the same cloth and the bigger woofer will improve the bass response. But you really must listen to the combo before you buy. The Bostons are a great example of speakers which can sound glorious with one amp and really ordinary with another. They really aren't designed for tube amps - the typical Boston customer is using them with a home theatre or a lower-end Japanese receiver. I am just speculating that it might work due to the relative sensitivity and easy impedance of the drivers. Note that my Bostons did not sound so great when I tested them with my Tripath amp - which is kind of a poor man's flea-powered tube amp. So who knows until you try it.

Truth be told, what would sound really superb with your amp would be a super-efficient, single driver speaker. You wouldn't have much bass or treble, but the music would sound sweet...really sweet. You see a lot of these built around a Supravox, Fostex, Monacor, etc. full-range driver. The problem, of course, is that most of them are home-built and that's not for everyone.

But you can buy these speakers online, either from small-scale builders who have a garage business/website, or you can buy used ones on eBay. People who build speakers tend to build new ones a lot and they sell the old ones, usually at a price less than the material costs, since home-built speakers have little resale value. The usual caveats apply when dealing outside of the mainstream. But enough people have the same requirement as you that a market does exist. It's worth at least investigating.

To approach this from the commercial mainstream, Supravox, the French full-range driver specialist, also makes finished one-way loudspeakers. They aren't cheap but have a cult-like following, almost all of whom own an amp like yours. They have two bookshelf models - the Lisa and the Arcane (around 650 and 1150 euros, respectively, with the former based on a 5" driver and the latter on a 6"). These are 95db/2.8v speakers! Again, don't expect big bass, but the dynamics and midrange quality from the single point drivers will completely destroy some of the most expensive systems you see on this site. The Lisa would be a very viable choice for you if it isn't too expensive.

Good luck, and remember: listen to it first. It's good advice for any hifi purchase, but with your amp, it is an absolute necessity.

 

[sthomas048]

That was probably the best reply Ive ever had in any forum. Thank you. I will have to see how my new valve amp performs with my B&W speakers and then take it from there. Supravox seem to be very popular and just by googling I can see ! No one sells them so you can tell they are the real deal.

Thank you friend.

 

[hoopsontoast]

SpursGator - In terms of efficiency and easy to drive-ness with v low power amps, would the Boston A26 be worth a look too ?

Sure - the whole range is cut from the same cloth and the bigger woofer will improve the bass response. But you really must listen to the combo before you buy. The Bostons are a great example of speakers which can sound glorious with one amp and really ordinary with another. They really aren't designed for tube amps - the typical Boston customer is using them with a home theatre or a lower-end Japanese receiver. I am just speculating that it might work due to the relative sensitivity and easy impedance of the drivers. Note that my Bostons did not sound so great when I tested them with my Tripath amp - which is kind of a poor man's flea-powered tube amp. So who knows until you try it.

Truth be told, what would sound really superb with your amp would be a super-efficient, single driver speaker. You wouldn't have much bass or treble, but the music would sound sweet...really sweet. You see a lot of these built around a Supravox, Fostex, Monacor, etc. full-range driver. The problem, of course, is that most of them are home-built and that's not for everyone.

But you can buy these speakers online, either from small-scale builders who have a garage business/website, or you can buy used ones on eBay. People who build speakers tend to build new ones a lot and they sell the old ones, usually at a price less than the material costs, since home-built speakers have little resale value. The usual caveats apply when dealing outside of the mainstream. But enough people have the same requirement as you that a market does exist. It's worth at least investigating.

To approach this from the commercial mainstream, Supravox, the French full-range driver specialist, also makes finished one-way loudspeakers. They aren't cheap but have a cult-like following, almost all of whom own an amp like yours. They have two bookshelf models - the Lisa and the Arcane (around 650 and 1150 euros, respectively, with the former based on a 5" driver and the latter on a 6"). These are 95db/2.8v speakers! Again, don't expect big bass, but the dynamics and midrange quality from the single point drivers will completely destroy some of the most expensive systems you see on this site. The Lisa would be a very viable choice for you if it isn't too expensive.

Good luck, and remember: listen to it first. It's good advice for any hifi purchase, but with your amp, it is an absolute necessity.

Top post, but you have opened up a whole can of worms! Full-Range-Drivers and little SET amps are a match made in heaven!

Supravox are on my to-do-list at some point, especially if I do go down the OB route. Currently using some Veravox drivers which I have re-visited after having two pairs a few years back.

 

[SpursGator]

I have been thinking a lot about open baffles as well. The kick drum from a big open-baffle woofer makes every speaker I've ever heard - every one with bass anyway, which is to say, Quad ESL notwithstanding - sound like a fibreboard box. It can't be beat.

The problem, of course, is that the WAF is at a near all-time low and who has the space?

But I want them.

 

[sthomas048]

Hello guys,

I think I may have found the ideal speaker that Im looking for. Would like to know what you all think. Omega Super 3T.

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3t.html

 

[hoopsontoast]

Hello guys,

I think I may have found the ideal speaker that Im looking for. Would like to know what you all think. Omega Super 3T.

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3t.html

I like the look of the Omega speakers but AFAIK they dont have any UK dealers so Importing them will have added costs. My guess is they would be £600 at least with Shipping, Import Duty and VAT.

 

[sthomas048]

Wow ! I had no idea ! £300 for shipping, customs and VAT ? Mind you still cheaper than many other speakers Ive found with similar spec.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Well I would factor around $100 for shipping, then you pay Import Duty on top of that then VAT on top of that again.

Usually it works out to just replace the $ with a £ and thats a rough idea of how much you will pay :rofl:

 

[sthomas048]

Crikey !

 

[sthomas048]

Right folks, this is a little update. My new 3.5w valve amp has arrived, a Miniwatt N3. Volumne is not an issue at all with my current speakers, so Im pleased with that. But the sound put out by the amp is very poor. While there's no doubting the musicality and smoothness of it, it all sounds a bit congested and flat. Like there's no seperation of instruments and it all sounds a bit crap tbh. Is this because its a cheapo amp ? The Miniwatt has had plenty of good reviews. Or is it because of my speakers ? Maybe the amp needs to break in ?

Im asking for help again ! What do you all think ?

 

[CnoEvil]

Right folks, this is a little update. My new 3.5w valve amp has arrived, a Miniwatt N3. Volumne is not an issue at all with my current speakers, so Im pleased with that. But the sound put out by the amp is very poor. While there's no doubting the musicality and smoothness of it, it all sounds a bit congested and flat. Like there's no seperation of instruments and it all sounds a bit crap tbh. Is this because its a cheapo amp ? The Miniwatt has had plenty of good reviews. Or is it because of my speakers ? Maybe the amp needs to break in ?

Im asking for help again ! What do you all think ?

That's like trying to power a bus with pedals and a bicycle chain, I'm afraid.

The specs of your speakers suggest an amp of at least 25W, have a sensitivity of 88 dbs and have an impedance that drops to 4.2 Ohms....so far from ideal.

As I said before, if you want to keep this amp, you need something like an Audio Note AX-1, and even that is not totally ideal. Here is a review of the AX-2, which is similar: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/audionoteax2.htm

 

[hoopsontoast]

I'm not sure its a amp/speaker issue in terms of output power. I had similar with some cheap valve amps (Antique Sound Labs Wave 8) and it gave me more than enough volume just sounded awfull. They are tiny power and output transformers in that amp which might need very efficient speakers to sound best where as a more beefy 2-3wpc amp would likely do better.

I would live with it for a while though, see how you get on after a few weeks. You could try some more efficient/easy to drive speakers further down the line, or if you like the taste, go for a better amp.

 

[chebby]

...where as a more beefy 2-3wpc amp would likely do better.

Can't say I have ever seen 2 - 3wpc ever described as 'more beefy'.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Well its all relative :rofl:

 

[CnoEvil]

Well its all relative :rofl:

You could be right.

I keep telling Mrs. Cno that I'm "beefy"......she says I'm deluded........scrawny is nearer the mark, apparently.

 

[steve_1979]

...where as a more beefy 2-3wpc amp would likely do better.

Can't say I have ever seen 2 - 3wpc ever described as 'more beefy'.

:doh: :rofl:

Could I be so rude as to suggest to the OP to seriously consider getting a more powerful amplifier. 2-3 watts and bookshelf speakers is just asking for trouble even at low volume.

IMO you really want at least 30 wpc even if you're only going to be listening at low volume with relatively easy to drive bookshelf speakers. Anything less and you're likely to get clipping on the dynamic peaks of some music. Personally I wouldn't consider anything under 50 wpc.

 

[sthomas048]

The purchase of the amp was purely based on reviews and cost, it was so cheap for a valve amp I couldnt resist. I knew there would be a possibility that it wouldnt live up to the hype. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will stick with it for a while and see if it improves. If not then I will try a more powerful amp. There's no way Im paying out for powerful speakers (potentially £600 plus) when the amp itself only cost £120 !

Thanks all.