NAD 3020 and other hifi hysteria.

[MakkaPakka]

lack of musicality and timing

Could someone explain to me what a a component that 'lacks musicality and timing' actually sounds like?

 

[CnoEvil]

Could someone explain to me what a a component that 'lacks musicality and timing' actually sounds like?

Here is quite a good explanation of PRaT (which includes Timing): http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

If speakers bass cones don't start and stop precisely when they should, it turns the sound into a "sonic mess" and effs up the timing. This means the speakers have to be good, and the amp has to control them properly.

IMO. The opposite of a system that is musical (or has musicality), is one that sounds cold, emotionless, sterile and analytical.....a bit like computer generated music versus that composed and performed by a skilled Artist. A sound engineer wants a system / speaker to analyze the mix, where I want a system to portray the emotion and intention of the musicians

For me this is achieved by brands like Audio Note, Sonus Faber, Icon Audio, Pathos.

NB. This is just my personal view and is certainly not written in stone.

 

[Al ears]

Could someone explain to me what a a component that 'lacks musicality and timing' actually sounds like?

Here is quite a good explanation of PRaT (which includes Timing): http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

If speakers bass cones don't start and stop precisely when they should, it turns the sound into a "sonic mess" and effs up the timing. This means the speakers have to be good, and the amp has to control them properly.

IMO. The opposite of a system that is musical (or has musicality), is one that sounds cold, emotionless, sterile and analytical.....a bit like computer generated music versus that composed and performed by a skilled Artist. A sound engineer wants a system / speaker to analyze the mix, where I want a system to portray the emotion and intention of the musicians

For me this is achieved by brands like Audio Note, Sonus Faber, Icon Audio, Pathos.

NB. This is just my personal view and is certainly not written in stone.

... or blood I hope.

Good description though cnoevil.

 

[lindsayt]

Garrard 401, Thorens TD124, Lenco GL various models, Sony PSX 6750, Pioneer PL71, Denon DP-5500, Onkyo CP 80M, Trio KP 8080, Yamaha YP-D51 etc etc etc are all better than the LP12 / Grace in key areas.

I am familiar with some of those players and quite frankly think you are hopelessly wrong on this one, TD124 apart they do not come close.

I know you have certain views and many of them are interesting and informative but not on this one. Not going to argue so we will not fall out.

Think of it as an alternative realiity.....

The key areas I was thinking of were bass crispness and pitch stability, followed by midrange clarity.

I own a well serviced LP12 / Ittok / Troika.

I find that LP12's are great for Simon and Garfunkel's Mrs Robinson. Not so good for Bachman Turner Overdrive's Not Fragile, nor Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.

And of course, if you put a crappy arm and a crappy cart on a turntable and compare it to a worse turntable with a better arm and cartridge then it's possible that the worse turntable will sound better in those conditions. And also if you place a non-suspended turntable on a floor mounted stand close to your speakers it's possible that a suspended design would sound better. And if you're not in control of the demo, it's always possible that the demo's rigged.

And I don't fall out with anyone, just because they have a different view on a piece of hi-fi to me. That would be ridiculous. It would be like falling out with someone because they supported a different football team to me.

If you ever get an easy chance I'd recommend that you compare an LP12 against a good idler or direct drive, with the idler or direct drive being well isolated from the speakers, as well as having an arm and cartridge that is at least as good as the one on the LP12 you are comparing it against.

 

[CnoEvil]

... or blood I hope.

Blood and Tears!

Good description though cnoevil.

Nice to know someone else agrees.......but you would, as you are Alear and can hear what I'm talking about. :shifty:

 

[Al ears]

... or blood I hope.

Blood and Tears!

Good description though cnoevil.

Nice to know someone else agrees.......but you would, as you are Alear and can hear what I'm talking about. :shifty:

Right on brother! (at least I assume it's brother) ....tell it like it is!

 

[CnoEvil]

Right on brother! (at least I assume it's brother) ....tell it like it is!

I'm a Leprechaun from Proxima Centauri.

 

[davedotco]

Garrard 401, Thorens TD124, Lenco GL various models, Sony PSX 6750, Pioneer PL71, Denon DP-5500, Onkyo CP 80M, Trio KP 8080, Yamaha YP-D51 etc etc etc are all better than the LP12 / Grace in key areas.

I am familiar with some of those players and quite frankly think you are hopelessly wrong on this one, TD124 apart they do not come close.

I know you have certain views and many of them are interesting and informative but not on this one. Not going to argue so we will not fall out.

Think of it as an alternative realiity.....

The key areas I was thinking of were bass crispness and pitch stability, followed by midrange clarity.

I own a well serviced LP12 / Ittok / Troika.

I find that LP12's are great for Simon and Garfunkel's Mrs Robinson. Not so good for Bachman Turner Overdrive's Not Fragile, nor Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.

And of course, if you put a crappy arm and a crappy cart on a turntable and compare it to a worse turntable with a better arm and cartridge then it's possible that the worse turntable will sound better in those conditions. And also if you place a non-suspended turntable on a floor mounted stand close to your speakers it's possible that a suspended design would sound better. And if you're not in control of the demo, it's always possible that the demo's rigged.

And I don't fall out with anyone, just because they have a different view on a piece of hi-fi to me. That would be ridiculous. It would be like falling out with someone because they supported a different football team to me.

If you ever get an easy chance I'd recommend that you compare an LP12 against a good idler or direct drive, with the idler or direct drive being well isolated from the speakers, as well as having an arm and cartridge that is at least as good as the one on the LP12 you are comparing it against.

I was a dealer for more than 10 years, the 10 years previous to that I helped out in a dealership that I had a financial involvement with and in the 70s I paid for my university education working part time in Tottenham Court Rd and later in Wigmore St.

Other than that, I am not going to comment further.

 

[Al ears]

Right on brother! (at least I assume it's brother) ....tell it like it is!

I'm a Leprechaun from Proxima Centauri.

I that case I can only say 'nahnu, nahnu, beghorrah'.

 

[CnoEvil]

In that case I can only say 'nahnu, nahnu, beghorrah'.

Shazbot!

.

 

[stephennic]

Hi,

I still love my marantz cd63se, wipes a lot of budget cd players away, I love all that jitter adds to the musicality.

Cheers

Steve

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi,

I still love my marantz cd63se

Cheers

Steve

Hi Steve

Good player

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Bigsounds]

lack of musicality and timing

Could someone explain to me what a a component that 'lacks musicality and timing' actually sounds like?

It means: I didn't like it

 

[stephennic]

Hi,

I still love my marantz cd63se

Cheers

Steve

Hi Steve

Good player

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Thanks yes a good player.

 

[stephennic]

Hi,

I am not sure if anyone remembers the dm series of B&W. I have the B&W DM 330i and 110i. Lovely musical speakers from the last 80's.

We modified the 330i to a hardwired crossover and biwired them, as well as braced the box. I compared them to the modern B&W 603 and it was more open and natural sounding. They have that nice magical natural midrange, the bass driver are two 8inch in sealed box, nice solid tuneful bass. I tried them on a friend linn sondek which really made them sing.

Cheers

Steve.