Question My equipment or diminishing returns? 🤔

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Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
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10,545
'I envy anyone who is comfortable to listen music in multi-room arrangement when used simultaneously. It's something that I have tried and consider an utter nightmare.'

I've not got multiroom, no interest in it either. I like to sit and listen properly. I only ever walk around if it's stuff I've heard many times before and want some background noise but don't necessarily care about what is playing. The confusion may have been because I mentioned pre-outs, they're running the left and right in the same room so I can have the best of both - AV - Hi-Fi.
 

Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
34
6
10,545
What's your bank balance like as everything can be improved upon :)
Not as fancy as I'd like it to be! Rather than upgrade the lot, it was more a case of in your opinion, what would you swap to having it sing better? But also an upgrade that's not going to massively show everything down the line as a weak link.
 

Tinman1952

Well-known member
May 19, 2021
549
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770
Any ideas?
My personal opinion (and its only one opinion) is that your speakers are excellent and way better than the rest of your equipment. The first thing I would buy is a stand alone phono stage. That will be a big improvement over the built in one.
Secondly Audiolab equipment is often described as dry and somewhat analytical…. (I know it’s a very subjective thing…) so I think not only is it not doing your quality speakers justice…the ‘synergy’ is wrong.
How to fix it? Well that’s the problem really….because it’s such a personal decision based on what you like to hear…and could be expensive to resolve!
My suggestion would be to look at amplifiers with a richer tone and (god forbid..) experiment with cables….(there…I‘ve said it 😖)
Finding the balance that YOU like is what this hobby is all about.
Sit back and enjoy the journey…..👍
 

DougK

Well-known member
Dec 8, 2013
1,131
790
20,070
The first thing I would buy is a stand alone phono stage. That will be a big improvement over the built in one.
Excellent reply Tinman which I agree with 95%. However, unless I'm missing something I don't see a turntable in your signature, yet you state that the phono-stage in the amp is the weak link. Do you have experience of vinyl playback and phono-stages? I'm only asking as some phono-stages in amps are damned good and you need to spend nearly half the price of the amp to better them.
 

Tinman1952

Well-known member
May 19, 2021
549
278
770
Excellent reply Tinman which I agree with 95%. However, unless I'm missing something I don't see a turntable in your signature, yet you state that the phono-stage in the amp is the weak link. Do you have experience of vinyl playback and phono-stages? I'm only asking as some phono-stages in amps are damned good and you need to spend nearly half the price of the amp to better them.
Well I‘ve had many items of equipment in the last 20 years which are not in my signature…🙂
 

Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
34
6
10,545
My personal opinion (and its only one opinion) is that your speakers are excellent and way better than the rest of your equipment. The first thing I would buy is a stand alone phono stage. That will be a big improvement over the built in one.
Secondly Audiolab equipment is often described as dry and somewhat analytical…. (I know it’s a very subjective thing…) so I think not only is it not doing your quality speakers justice…the ‘synergy’ is wrong.
How to fix it? Well that’s the problem really….because it’s such a personal decision based on what you like to hear…and could be expensive to resolve!
My suggestion would be to look at amplifiers with a richer tone and (god forbid..) experiment with cables….(there…I‘ve said it 😖)
Finding the balance that YOU like is what this hobby is all about.
Sit back and enjoy the journey…..👍
That's very helpful, thanks Tinman 👍

Excellent reply Tinman which I agree with 95%. However, unless I'm missing something I don't see a turntable in your signature, yet you state that the phono-stage in the amp is the weak link. Do you have experience of vinyl playback and phono-stages? I'm only asking as some phono-stages in amps are damned good and you need to spend nearly half the price of the amp to better them.
I see realise that was a response to Tinman but my phono stage is from the 8000a. Everything is "if and when" at the moment due to funds but from what I've heard the 8000a phono stage isn't a bad one. Of course, anything can be better, any suggestions for a dedicated phono stage given my setup?
 

DougK

Well-known member
Dec 8, 2013
1,131
790
20,070
As you will see in another thread on here a member has gone from a £200 phono-stage to a £500 with lacklustre results. I have also had similar results myself so I stopped looking for a dedicated phono-stage... it's a rabbit hole.

What I'm saying is don't be fooled into thinking thinking that the phono-stage in your amp can be bettered for little cash, you may get a different flavour but it won't necessarily be any better than what you already have.

There are many dedicated phono-stages on the market and I am unsure as to your budget, but if you intend to stick with MM keep it as is, if you intend to move to MC then there are plenty of decent ones starting around the £1K mark. My money would go on a better cartridge before a phono-stage. I am currently running a Nagaoka MP500 using the phono-stage in my amp and am more than happy with the results.

Your ears, your money, this game is very much about trial and error.
 
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Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
34
6
10,545
As you will see in another thread on here a member has gone from a £200 phono-stage to a £500 with lacklustre results. I have also had similar results myself so I stopped looking for a dedicated phono-stage... it's a rabbit hole.

What I'm saying is don't be fooled into thinking thinking that the phono-stage in your amp can be bettered for little cash, you may get a different flavour but it won't necessarily be any better than what you already have.

There are many dedicated phono-stages on the market and I am unsure as to your budget, but if you intend to stick with MM keep it as is, if you intend to move to MC then there are plenty of decent ones starting around the £1K mark. My money would go on a better cartridge before a phono-stage. I am currently running a Nagaoka MP500 using the phono-stage in my amp and am more than happy with the results.

Your ears, your money, this game is very much about trial and error.
I don't know about the quality of the phono stage in the 8000A but I doubt it is shabby. I agree wholeheartedly with @DougK in the fact you get m any more bangs for your bucks by upgrading a cartridge rather than a phonostage
Thanks for the advice, with that in mind, and when money allows, I'll look at changing the amps and cartridge.
 

MUSICRAFT

Well-known member
Any ideas?
Based on my experience your system looks to be unbalanced. I believe that this can be addressed for a modest sum of around £250 - £350. Look at the used market for Rotel's RA-1062 integrated amplifier. A RA-1062's (working as intended to it's full specification) overall tonality combined with it's quality of power will grip, drive, energize and open up the Silver 300's far more effectively.

Btw, the RA-1062 has got a pretty fine phono stage too.
 

Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
34
6
10,545
Based on my experience your system looks to be unbalanced. I believe that this can be addressed for a modest sum of around £250 - £350. Look at the used market for Rotel's RA-1062 integrated amplifier. A RA-1062's (working as intended to it's full specification) overall tonality combined with it's quality of power will grip, drive, energize and open up the Silver 300's far more effectively.

Btw, the RA-1062 has got a pretty fine phono stage too.
Thanks, I'll have a look, I've heard that Rotel appears to go well with MA. For streaming I have have the 8000Q - pre-amp and a 8000PX - power-amp, as I want to continue using old and used products to save cash and essentially get more for my money, based on your experience is there any you'd recommend? I want honesty, but not so honest that at times it can be a bit boring and lacking of life.

Edit: What I was meant to say regarding the amps was: I realise you mentioned an integrated amp, do you also know of any pre/power combos you could recommend too? That way I could look for an integrated Rotel purely to be used for the phono stage and something else as the main engine of the kit if you like. Or would I not be gaining much by doing that?
 
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Based on my experience your system looks to be unbalanced. I believe that this can be addressed for a modest sum of around £250 - £350. Look at the used market for Rotel's RA-1062 integrated amplifier. A RA-1062's (working as intended to it's full specification) overall tonality combined with it's quality of power will grip, drive, energize and open up the Silver 300's far more effectively.

Btw, the RA-1062 has got a pretty fine phono stage too.
you are not wrong there. My brother currently has mine in his system.
It was a giant killer, if I can use that term, in it's day. The problem may be finding a really well looked after one.
 
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MUSICRAFT

Well-known member
Thanks, I'll have a look, I've heard that Rotel appears to go well with MA. For streaming I have have the 8000Q - pre-amp and a 8000PX - power-amp, as I want to continue using old and used products to save cash and essentially get more for my money, based on your experience is there any you'd recommend? I want honesty, but not so honest that at times it can be a bit boring and lacking of life.

Edit: What I was meant to say regarding the amps was: I realise you mentioned an integrated amp, do you also know of any pre/power combos you could recommend too? That way I could look for an integrated Rotel purely to be used for the phono stage and something else as the main engine of the kit if you like. Or would I not be gaining much by doing that?
You're welcome (y)

I would say that at the moment and in the main (possibly look at an external phono stage later on) the answer and for not much money lies specifically with using a RA-1062 for your amplification needs.
 
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Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
34
6
10,545
You're welcome (y)

I would say that at the moment and in the main (possibly look at an external phono stage later on) the answer and for not much money lies specifically with using a RA-1062 for your amplification needs.
Would the 60W P/C be suffice for my Silver 300? On the very rare occasion when I'd thrash my old BX6, the 8000a (also 60W P/C) would clip. Of course, I am aware that wattage really does vary between manufacturers, but I just want to be sure that if I did at some point decide to give it a go, I'd have plenty to play with.

I haven't quite got the money now so have plenty of time to investigate further, but will the RA-1062 tie in nicely with the Pioneer SC-LX59 which I take the front pre-outs from to my Audiolab pre-power combo?
 

MUSICRAFT

Well-known member
Would the 60W P/C be suffice for my Silver 300? On the very rare occasion when I'd thrash my old BX6, the 8000a (also 60W P/C) would clip. Of course, I am aware that wattage really does vary between manufacturers, but I just want to be sure that if I did at some point decide to give it a go, I'd have plenty to play with.

I haven't quite got the money now so have plenty of time to investigate further, but will the RA-1062 tie in nicely with the Pioneer SC-LX59 which I take the front pre-outs from to my Audiolab pre-power combo?
The RA-1062 is a high current amplifier which was partly designed around and to power the resistive speakers such as 801’s. Therefore in comparison Silver 300’s are a walk in the park for an RA-1062.

The RA-1062’s overall tonality combined with it’s high current capability and one which is working to its full intended specification will grip, drive and energise your speakers far more effectively and offer better stability at almost any comparable level and thereby enhance the traits such as punch, attack, etc.

It's better to have current rich power rather then current starved marketing and brochure impressive but ultimately somewhat weedy 'paper' watts.

Power is nothing without energy. No guts. No glory (y)

Just as your existing amplification RA-1062 can also be used in conjunction with your AV amp.
 

Zeeman92

Well-known member
Nov 9, 2014
34
6
10,545
Thanks for your response, that makes logical sense. 👍

As for your last sentence, would you think that tonally, both the Rotel and Pioneer AV would work well together?
 
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Edbostan

Well-known member
Aug 5, 2021
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Hi,

Im not going to tell you what to buy and budget for. Thats up to you! but what to expect and how far things can be taken.

I always say budget speakers can really be pushed. And is where buying the best speaker you can afford statement falls flat on its face. i'll explain further.

Forgetting the fact you're buying another MA, so same house sound, you're just buying refinement and more difficult to drive speakers in this case 4.5ohm min dip @ 180 hz, theres a lot of sound at that frequency that's getting a little rough not many amps that could handle that convincingly especially at volume. Dimensioning returns? maybe! An unconsidered purchase? more likely and what you're going to need to do, to the rest of the system to get it back to your happy place and that WOW moment. This is why people upgrade so quickly and burn through money.

Having said that there's only so much they can do with a piston in a box. It's never a night and difference, it can be! But the jump has to be big not just a few hundred big but thousands big and it not all about the speaker in that price, hence my unconsidered statement above. Once you get to a certain point you have to start looking at the whole no just the singular. Amp along with the speakers.

So you're BX6 for example i'd quite happily stick a 4k-5k (not saying you have to spend that you could) amp up their backsides and the same on a source. Yes they would render those differences up to that price points easily and the amp would give massive scope for future upgrades, and ill say and say and say it again! power and efficiency are king and together it's god-like, People just don't realise how far budget speakers can be taken They would sound phenomenal when driven correctly and not many listen to properly driven budget speakers. Buying the best speakers money can afford absolute bull. it all need to be taken into account

You already had the efficiency and some power. TBH i would have left well alone. it was a well-considered system.

We're all guilty of it and not many admit it .But we all upgrade to what they think is "better" and we wish we hadn't i know i did and so long ago.

Sorry to say but the money would have been better spent on a completely new and more powerful front end All you have done is made your front end upgrade path even more expensive as id quite happily pair the 200's with 5-8k (again not saying you have to spend that but id certainly be looking at around the 3k mark amp dac combo). I'd say those speakers are lifers for you as long as you like the MA sound that is.

I know it doesn't really help you consider your next upgrade but I think in you case unless you have money to upgrade the rest of the system i might actually try to return the silver 200 if you can and not to late

Hope that make sense, writing this on the train on the way back home.
An audiophile mate had a Soundeck LP12 turntable, Naim amplification feeding Acoustic Research AR18 speakers which were not too expensive at the time but the sound was excellent. The front end is the most important which can make budget speakers sing
 

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