More power?

[Furtone]

Hello everybody!

I'm the proud new owner of a pair of Tannoy Revolution DC6Ts and an Arcam A19 using an rPAC and WAVs from my computer as my source until I figure out a slightly more convienient/elegant solution.

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys. For most 'normal' music the Arcam performs exceptionally well but I like to play a lot of dance music (drum and bass primarily) quite loud which I think is really putting it through it's paces and doesn't deliver the same kind of low end performance I enjoy with 'normal' music. I'd prefer it to be a lot meatier when it's being really pushed and can tell it's not been enjoying itself on the occasions I have tried, so I've been super careful since.

My plan to overcome this is to bi-amp the Tannoys with an Arcam P38. Lows on the P38, highs on the A19 and I'm just wondering if this seems like a reasonable plan or if I've got it totally wrong and maybe if anyone has any experience of a similar setup?

Thanks in advance

 

[Blackdawn]

i've never tried bi-amping. If your going to using the A19 for a pre-amp then won't the P38 have to power both the low and high frequency or can you slpit it as you say with both amps?

 

[Furtone]

I wasn't going to use the A19 as a dedicated pre amp, I'd use it to run the HF input and then run the P38 for the LF input. Crossover would be in the speaker.

 

[matt49]

But you do need a preamp stage, so presumably you 'daisy-chain' the A19 and P38, so that the A19 is doing preamp duty and driving the HF, and the P38 is driving the LF.

 

[Furtone]

My plan exactly! The question is, will it deliver what I'm looking for or be a very expensive mistake?

 

[davedotco]

My plan exactly! The question is, will it deliver what I'm looking for or be a very expensive mistake?

The latter I'm afraid. Passive bi-amping, whatever the configuration, will not have a significant effect on the ability of the system to play loud.

The simple answer is to replace your A19 with a more powerful amplifier, a much more powerful amplifier.

Look for a minimum of 200 watts per channel to make a real difference.

it is just possible that for some reason the A19/DC6T is a poor combination and that a different amplifier of comparable rating will do a better job, personally I doubt it but others will be able to advise, my experience of the Tannoy speaker is very limited.

 

[Pete68]

I use an Arcam Alpha 9/9P in a bi amp set up and find it makes a big difference over a single amplifier. I also listen to some dance music (techno etc) and bi amping really helps to get things under control, especially how the amp gets a grip on the bass.

This is from my own experience and can't say whether it would work for you.

 

[steve_1979]

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys.

Why don't you borrow something like an Onkyo TX-8050 stereo receiver/amplifier to hear for yourself what difference 100 watts per channel can make to the sound?

If you like to listen to music at anything above moderate volume levels then the extra power will be nessessary to sustain the full dynamic range at higher volume levels.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Hello everybody!

I'm the proud new owner of a pair of Tannoy Revolution DC6Ts and an Arcam A19 using an rPAC and WAVs from my computer as my source until I figure out a slightly more convienient/elegant solution.

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys. For most 'normal' music the Arcam performs exceptionally well but I like to play a lot of dance music (drum and bass primarily) quite loud which I think is really putting it through it's paces and doesn't deliver the same kind of low end performance I enjoy with 'normal' music. I'd prefer it to be a lot meatier when it's being really pushed and can tell it's not been enjoying itself on the occasions I have tried, so I've been super careful since.

My plan to overcome this is to bi-amp the Tannoys with an Arcam P38. Lows on the P38, highs on the A19 and I'm just wondering if this seems like a reasonable plan or if I've got it totally wrong and maybe if anyone has any experience of a similar setup?

Thanks in advance

Its probably not the lack of power that you are noticing but the limitations of the power supply in the amp, as being fair, its an entry integrated. Bi-Amping is not likely to make a huge difference you would be better off getting a single 'better' amp (note, not always more powerfull) than two cheaper ones.

I doubt you are getting headroom problems unless you are hearing clipping which is unlikely.

 

[BigH]

I think the Arcam P38 costs about £1200 so is hardly a budget amp.

I would try and demo the P38 with your amp and speakers and maybe try some other amps like the Roksan Kandy K2 which is about £700.

 

[hoopsontoast]

I think the Arcam P38 costs about £1200 so is hardly a budget amp.

I would try and demo the P38 with your amp and speakers and maybe try some other amps like the Roksan Kandy K2 which is about £700.

I dont see the point, spend that £1.2k + the A19 cost and get one decent amp :?

The 'budget' was in reference to the A19, being an entry integrated amp.

For example, you could get a Denon PMA-2020ae for that and to be honest that could be all the amp you would ever need IME with the PMA-2000ae!

 

[hoopsontoast]

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys.

Why don't you borrow something like an Onkyo TX-8050 stereo receiver/amplifier to hear for yourself what difference 100 watts per channel can make to the sound?

If you like to listen to music at anything above moderate volume levels then the extra power will be nessessary to sustain the full dynamic range at higher volume levels.

Steve, the Onkyo is at best a 75wpc/8ohms amp

 

[BigH]

Well it all sounds a hell of a lot of money to me, if you go down the power amp. route I would look out for used ones which are often about 50% of new ones.

 

[steve_1979]

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys.

Why don't you borrow something like an Onkyo TX-8050 stereo receiver/amplifier to hear for yourself what difference 100 watts per channel can make to the sound?

If you like to listen to music at anything above moderate volume levels then the extra power will be nessessary to sustain the full dynamic range at higher volume levels.

Steve, the Onkyo is at best a 75wpc/8ohms amp

It says 100wpc here: http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/onkyo-tx-8050-a-novel-spin-on-streaming-systems

Either way it would be worth him borrowing an AV receiver for a few days to see if he needs more power than his current amp can produce. The Onkyo is just one example, there are obviously many other good choices from the likes of Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer ect.

 

[hoopsontoast]

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys.

Why don't you borrow something like an Onkyo TX-8050 stereo receiver/amplifier to hear for yourself what difference 100 watts per channel can make to the sound?

If you like to listen to music at anything above moderate volume levels then the extra power will be nessessary to sustain the full dynamic range at higher volume levels.

Steve, the Onkyo is at best a 75wpc/8ohms amp

It says 100wpc here: http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/onkyo-tx-8050-a-novel-spin-on-streaming-systems

Either way it would be worth him borrowing an AV receiver for a few days to see if he needs more power than his current amp can produce. The Onkyo is just one example, there are obviously many other good choices from the likes of Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer ect.

It tells you on the Onkyo website, 100w/8ohms "Dynamic Power" so I would guess thats around 75w at best. And that the aptly named A-9050 is quoted at 75w/8ohms.

The Onkyo quote of 130w is at 6ohms and 1% distortion and 1 channel driven, much the same as most AV amps that are quoted with one channel driven.

If he really wanted to try something with extra power, a cheap PA amp would do the trick, although could sound worse.

As I say, I would wager its the cheap power supply in the A19 that is causing the lack of 'headroom' rather than the lack of power, esentially.

 

[MajorFubar]

As I say, I would wager its the cheap power supply in the A19 that is causing the lack of 'headroom' rather than the lack of power, esentially.

I would agree entirely with this. Power output is much misunderstood. 50W RMS p/c should be enough to fry your brains through 89db speakers, unless you live in the Royal Albert Hall. But if the amp can't deliver peaks cleanly and fully on demand, it's going to sound like it's struggling. But throwing just more Watts at the solution won't necessarily work.

The old Cyrus 1 I have knocking around in the computer room is only rated 25W p/c, but it's got a big power supply, and if you can listen to it with its volume past 12 o'clock playing loud music through average speakers then you're a braver man than me.

 

[davedotco]

The A19 is not a cheap amplifier and is modestly specced in terms of power output, if the power supply cannot deliver the rated output even when driven quite hard then someone needs to be having words with their design team.

The power requirements of modern hi-fi systems have been discussed in a recent thread and while 50 wpc should be sufficient for most people, most of the time it is pretty clear that for this user, with this system and at this time, it is inadequate.

Assuming that the A19 is working as designed and delivering it's rated power then a more powerful amplifier is needed. It is worth remembering that, in the real word, doubling the amplifier power will only gain you an extra 3dB of (sound pressure) level. For the uninitiated, in the case of a system playing a stereo recording the smallest change that can be clearly heard as an increase in level is about 3dB.

In other words lifting the power from 50 to 75 or even 100 watts per channel is unlikely to make a big difference in what you hear and if power is really the issue, then several hundred watts would be needed to make a real difference.

 

[trj007]

Is the OP Jeremy Clarkson?

 

[davedotco]

Is the OP Jeremy Clarkson?

Doubt it, no mention of how well the Tannoys 'grip', particularly when it is raining or how well the Arcam behaves when pushed 'close to the limit'.

 

[BigH]

The A19 is not a cheap amplifier and is modestly specced in terms of power output, if the power supply cannot deliver the rated output even when driven quite hard then someone needs to be having words with their design team.

The power requirements of modern hi-fi systems have been discussed in a recent thread and while 50 wpc should be sufficient for most people, most of the time it is pretty clear that for this user, with this system and at this time, it is inadequate.

Assuming that the A19 is working as designed and delivering it's rated power then a more powerful amplifier is needed. It is worth remembering that, in the real word, doubling the amplifier power will only gain you an extra 3dB of (sound pressure) level. For the uninitiated, in the case of a system playing a stereo recording the smallest change that can be clearly heard as an increase in level is about 3dB.

In other words lifting the power from 50 to 75 or even 100 watts per channel is unlikely to make a big difference in what you hear and if power is really the issue, then several hundred watts would be needed to make a real difference.

That maybe true but, I have found many amps rated around 50W per ch, struggle when you turn the volume up above 11 oclock but more powerful amps like the Roksan Kandy K2 is much better at higher volumes, it has more control and does not sound harsh. I don't know about the A19 as I did play it that loud.

 

[davedotco]

The A19 is not a cheap amplifier and is modestly specced in terms of power output, if the power supply cannot deliver the rated output even when driven quite hard then someone needs to be having words with their design team.

The power requirements of modern hi-fi systems have been discussed in a recent thread and while 50 wpc should be sufficient for most people, most of the time it is pretty clear that for this user, with this system and at this time, it is inadequate.

Assuming that the A19 is working as designed and delivering it's rated power then a more powerful amplifier is needed. It is worth remembering that, in the real word, doubling the amplifier power will only gain you an extra 3dB of (sound pressure) level. For the uninitiated, in the case of a system playing a stereo recording the smallest change that can be clearly heard as an increase in level is about 3dB.

In other words lifting the power from 50 to 75 or even 100 watts per channel is unlikely to make a big difference in what you hear and if power is really the issue, then several hundred watts would be needed to make a real difference.

That maybe true but, I have found many amps rated around 50W per ch, struggle when you turn the volume up above 11 oclock but more powerful amps like the Roksan Kandy K2 is much better at higher volumes, it has more control and does not sound harsh. I don't know about the A19 as I did play it that loud.

As I have said elsewhere, the usual (RMS watts per channel) power rating given for amplifiers is largely useless as an indicator of how well they will drive real world speakers, far more important is their peak power capabilities, output impedance, power supply recovery capabilities etc, etc.

Im my post, highlighted, I make it clear that I am discussing the effects of increasing the power in situations where power output is the only issue, it is self evident that some amplifier designs will drive real world speakers better than others, that is practically the definition of better in this situation.

One other point, the setting of the volume control on any amplifier is entirely arbitary, it is no indication of power usage or anything like that. Many manufacturers deliberately select a control with a range such that their amplifier 'gets loud' very quickly, say by about 10 - 11 o'clock.

Inexperienced users see this as an indication that said amplifier is pretty powerful, comments like 'look how loud it is and it is only 10 0'clock' is often heard. The fact that the amplifier is unlistenable at 12 and blowing up your speakers by 1 o'clock is rarely mentioned.

 

[Reggie Mental]

Hello everybody!

I'm the proud new owner of a pair of Tannoy Revolution DC6Ts and an Arcam A19 using an rPAC and WAVs from my computer as my source until I figure out a slightly more convienient/elegant solution.

I have a suspicion the A19's 2x50W output isn't quite enough for my Tannoys. For most 'normal' music the Arcam performs exceptionally well but I like to play a lot of dance music (drum and bass primarily) quite loud which I think is really putting it through it's paces and doesn't deliver the same kind of low end performance I enjoy with 'normal' music. I'd prefer it to be a lot meatier when it's being really pushed and can tell it's not been enjoying itself on the occasions I have tried, so I've been super careful since.

My plan to overcome this is to bi-amp the Tannoys with an Arcam P38. Lows on the P38, highs on the A19 and I'm just wondering if this seems like a reasonable plan or if I've got it totally wrong and maybe if anyone has any experience of a similar setup?

Thanks in advance

The passive biamping of two 50W per channel amplifiers won't give you any more power than a single one. Buy a 100W per channel one.

 

[BigH]

Yes some good points but how do you tell the difference between amps, none of these things seem to get mentioned in reviews?

 

[davedotco]

Yes some good points but how do you tell the difference between amps, none of these things seem to get mentioned in reviews?

Getting complicated or technical in reviews is a big reader turnoff, most readers simply want to know if Product A is better othan Product B, thats it.

You can find some measurements that will guide you in your quest (google is your friend) but it also comes down to listening and it helps a lot if you know what you are listening to and for.

Most amplifiers (power amplifiers really) sound the same, providing that they are well designed and operating within their capabilities. This is a contentious statement but has been proved many times in tests, the important words here are 'well designed' and 'operating withing their capabilities'.

An amplifier with a small power supply that 'sags' and causes premature clipping is by definition not 'well designed', a good but modestly powered amplifier asked to drive complex low sensitivity speakers is not 'operating within its capabilities', these are simple examples.

It is surprising how often, in real world systems and applications, components can find themselves operating at the edge of their capabilities, often without the user having the slightest idea that this is happening. It is how the components behave in these circumstances that often determins whether a component sounds good or not.

 

[BigH]

Yes some good points but how do you tell the difference between amps, none of these things seem to get mentioned in reviews?

Getting complicated or technical in reviews is a big reader turnoff, most readers simply want to know if Product A is better othan Product B, thats it.

You can find some measurements that will guide you in your quest (google is your friend) but it also comes down to listening and it helps a lot if you know what you are listening to and for.

Most amplifiers (power amplifiers really) sound the same, providing that they are well designed and operating within their capabilities. This is a contentious statement but has been proved many times in tests, the important words here are 'well designed' and 'operating withing their capabilities'.

An amplifier with a small power supply that 'sags' and causes premature clipping is by definition not 'well designed', a good but modestly powered amplifier asked to drive complex low sensitivity speakers is not 'operating within its capabilities', these are simple examples.

It is surprising how often, in real world systems and applications, components can find themselves operating at the edge of their capabilities, often without the user having the slightest idea that this is happening. It is how the components behave in these circumstances that often determins whether a component sounds good or not.

Yes I would agree that "Getting complicated or technical in reviews is a big reader turnoff" but I find with so many 4 and 5 star reviews its a job to tell them apart, I aslo find the reviews rather shallow and they are often only tested with only 2 different sets of speakers, I would rather see more real world situations and blind tests. Some people say you can't tell the difference between amps, I have found in demos that to be largely the case. OK maybe you need really high end gear to tell the difference.