Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s with audioquest cable

[magnus78]

Ya i'm kind of disappointed with the plastic body. And its almost 1kg lighter than the 603. To cut material cost and reduce shipping charges? But i do hope it sounds better than 603. Looking forward to the official review.

Saw a online dealer and they actually pair the M-CR610 with KEF LS50 as a bundle package :? :shifty:

http://www.on-off-on.ru/index.php?chp=showgood&num=10211

 

[pcookie]

Siuk

I think you may have answered your own question regarding the sound comparison between the 603 and 610. It may be that the Concept 20s are the main reason for a change in sound. I can't see there being any difference between the 2 marantz units as they use the same amplification.

I've been following threads on the 603 for over a year now and one thing has become clear. The 603 would stand or fall by the speakers it was attached to, and would benefit greatly from better and better speakers, which is why I'm not suprised to see a 610/LS50 combination.

As for looks, I'm with Chebby. IMO, the 603 will become a classic peice of kit, whereas the 610 will be forgotten when the next version comes along.

That said, this is Hi fi, and if the 610 ticks all the boxes for sound and ease of use, then looks and finish won't matter a jot.

I'm still envious and wish I had the spare cash to try one out.

cookie

 

[chebby]

I think the cover materials might be a victim of Marantz trying to keep to a 3 year-old price point. (The M-CR603 was also £499 at launch in late 2010 and was £479 when I bought mine in spring 2011).

I think they should have retained the 'edge' over all-plastic bodied models (like the Denon CEOL range) and charged £599 rather than cut build quality and finish standards.

 

[magnus78]

The ipod/iphone stand that came with the 603 no longer included in the 610. cost cutting again?

 

[SiUK]

Problem solved. the bright sound was beginning to freak me out a bit so I stuck my Mission 751s on the end but other than an increased level of detail and slightly worse stereo image sound was still bright with little bottom end integration. so, stu k the MCR610 back into single amp mode, removed my new biamp cables and connected my old and more expensive 2 to 4 bi-wire cables to the Marantz and concept 20s. incredible. Brightness gone rich sound back again. now of course it is either bi amping or the cables or even both. all I know is it is a massive difference in biwire. So may have just wasted 80 quid on the new cables...most of cost was actually terminations. I was considering snipping ends of new cable and turning them into biwire set to test. but may just flog them on ebay or something. anyhow. Anyone considering this combo in biamp mode should think twice...well don't do it.

 

[Crocodile]

Is it really bi-amping? I'd be surprised if a unit at this price point had two power amp stages. More likely bi-wiring through the A/B selector which uses the same amp.

Might be worth replacing the speaker links & see how a straight single wire connection sounds.

 

[ID.]

Is it really bi-amping? I'd be surprised if a unit at this price point had two power amp stages. More likely bi-wiring through the A/B selector which uses the same amp.

Might be worth replacing the speaker links & see how a straight single wire connection sounds.

I agree. It might be that they are trying to make it sound more impressive than it is, or it relates to something being lost in the translation from Japanese.

e.g. from my reading it seems like what we'd call oversampling is often referred to as upsampling in Japanese. Many refereences to active speakers seem to be specifically computer speakers, while studio monitors are often called powered monitors.

It's a shame it has lost the metal casing, but I suppose it is a budget product built, as Chebby pointed out, to a certain budget. Anyone handy enough to offer case mods providing a milled aluminium case with wooden cheeks?

 

[chebby]

...as Chebby pointed out, to a certain budget. Anyone handy enough to offer case mods providing a milled aluminium case with wooden cheeks?

I accept they have to build to a budget, but does it have to be the same budget as three years ago?

 

[manicm]

Problem solved. the bright sound was beginning to freak me out a bit so I stuck my Mission 751s on the end but other than an increased level of detail and slightly worse stereo image sound was still bright with little bottom end integration. so, stu k the MCR610 back into single amp mode, removed my new biamp cables and connected my old and more expensive 2 to 4 bi-wire cables to the Marantz and concept 20s. incredible. Brightness gone rich sound back again. now of course it is either bi amping or the cables or even both. all I know is it is a massive difference in biwire. So may have just wasted 80 quid on the new cables...most of cost was actually terminations. I was considering snipping ends of new cable and turning them into biwire set to test. but may just flog them on ebay or something. anyhow. Anyone considering this combo in biamp mode should think twice...well don't do it.

I don't get it (and didn't have time to rewind), but at first you swore by the biamp mode, what's changed since?

 

[SiUK]

@ ID.

It might be that they are trying to make it sound more impressive than it is

Well for me it had the totally opposite affect and I can honestly say the sound in comparison is asbolutely flamin' awful. I am extremely surprised just how awful it is in bi-amp mode as Marantz themselves push the bi-amp abilities. One moment I was thinking I'd forked out a load of money for a cheap off the shelf hi-fi and the next (out of bi-amp mode) I'm back up hearing with my own ears that I've actually got something far superior and baring little resemblance to what I was listening to. I don't exaggerate either. I checked to make sure I wasn't going mad and that the bi-amp mode was actually on and it was.

The Audioquest FLX-SLiP 14/4 I bought for upstairs setups makes the CR610s and 2010is sound teriffic together but the cable isn't of course in biwire configuration upstairs and is twisted together to make a single run. The reason I got more FLX-SLiP - but in bi-wire config - is I needed longer more flexible cables downstairs without paying out too much and it was such a huge improvement for the upstairs units I thought it would do the trick. I suspect that the problem may not be related at all to the cable but almost singuarly to the bi-amp mode...it just isn't right. Brighter minds will no doubt be able to work out what is going on but I am just enjoying the absolute relief that what I have sounds fantastic for the money.

As I was poncing about unplugging and plugging cables and resiting the units (because my existing Audioquest Crystal bi-wire speaker cable is only a 2 metre pair and means the CR610 has to be centred between the speakers for it to reach the terminals on the Marantz) I thought I'd unplug the Boston Acoustics sub from the NR1504 and stick it in the CR610. Crikey! I played back a high resolution flac of Bridge over troubled water played on a church organ and couldn't stop laughing it was so incredible. Switched it back for now but if I feel the need I'll defintiely switch it over (even if it is a PITA). I can think of a number of CDs that would sound incredible with tthe bottom end filled in.

Needless to say I'm back to being chuffed

...and definitely relieved! Phew!

 

[SiUK]

@manicm

In an earlier post I said 'something has changed' soundwise or some such comment. I think I was hoping it was going to get better. The soundstage in bi-amp mode is wider and taller and articulate which at first is very captivating but you soon start wondering why it sounds so disjointed. Didn't know what exacyly was going on because of all the changes but as I played more and more different types of music on the final setup it became glaringly apparrent that the sound was just not right and at all and I was basically putting up with it in the hopes it would improve...which it didn't. I am thinking about swtiching the main unit with one of the units I have upstairs just to make absolutely certain that there isn't something amiss with the CR610 downstairs. All I can tell you is that out of biamp mode the problem is gone and I'm not waiting any longer for the Concept 20s to burn in to enjoy the music.

 

[davedotco]

According to Marantz's own information the 610 contains 4 x 30 watt amplifiers, that 'can be configured in a variety of different ways'.

It is clear that in bi-amp mode, both sets of terminals are driven by their own amplifiers, ie 4 x 30 watts.

In normal stereo mode using Speaker A you get 2 x 60 watts but it is not absolutely clear what the situation is when using two independant pairs on Speaker A and Speaker B.

So, put simply, in bi-amp mode you have significantly less power on the all important bass section, probably pretty important in a relatively low powered amplifier.

 

[SiUK]

So, put simply, in bi-amp mode you have significantly less power on the all important bass section,

Actually, that did flicker across my circuits. Maybe you're right, just not enough power to deliver bi-amped...well not with these speakers at least.

 

[davedotco]

Read my post above, the amplifier is configured differently in normal and bi-amp modes, not surprising that it sounds different.

Further it is worth remembering that the overall power capability is limited by a modest capacity power supply and split between 4 separate amplifiers it is not surprising that it does not go very far.

 

[SiUK]

Yeah, reread. Sorry, understood now. Thanks for info.

To be honest I'm just glad it is sounding so good now...don't care whether it is biwired or biamped as long as it is a pleasure to listen to...which it is now. Also glad I didn't prematurely sell my AQ Crystal cables! Shall be hanging on to them now for sure.

 

[ID.]

According to Marantz's own information the 610 contains 4 x 30 watt amplifiers, that 'can be configured in a variety of different ways'.

It is clear that in bi-amp mode, both sets of terminals are driven by their own amplifiers, ie 4 x 30 watts.

In normal stereo mode using Speaker A you get 2 x 60 watts but it is not absolutely clear what the situation is when using two independant pairs on Speaker A and Speaker B.

So, put simply, in bi-amp mode you have significantly less power on the all important bass section, probably pretty important in a relatively low powered amplifier.

I stand corrected. Thanks for checking that properly

 

[magnus78]

Seriously guys,

What do u think if I pair the 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156 or even the KEF LS50? I don't have a chance to to audit them is such pacakge in my local shops. But did saw some online dealer offering the 610 and ls50 as bundle package.

 

[davedotco]

Seriously guys,

What do u think if I pair the 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156 or even the KEF LS50? I don't have a chance to to audit them is such pacakge in my local shops. But did saw some online dealer offering the 610 and ls50 as bundle package.

I know this is probably heresy as it applies a little bit of 'scientific' knowledge to the above situation, but I see it like this.

The LS50s in particular are generally considered to be quite difficult to drive, not impossible by any means but not that easy. The 610 has a total maximum power capability of 55 watts, allowing a few of those watts to operate all of the other functions of the unit and allowing for some losses in the power supply, each amplifier channel has a continuous power of about 20 watts to play with.

Now, the Marantz engineers have gone to some lengths to make the power supply as flexible and resilient as possible so, providing the choice of speakers is sensible, on a music signal the 610 is pretty capable.

However make the circumstances rather more difficult, driving a pair of LS50 for example, then the amplifier is working a bit harder, turn up the volume a bit, add a little bass boost (not exactly unusual with small speakers) and you could be in trouble. The power supply that is now working rather harder may find itself running out of power, the headroom that coped so well with music peaks is missing and the sound will become strained.

 

[magnus78]

Hi Davedotco,

how about 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156?

 

[davedotco]

Hi Davedotco,

how about 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156?

No idea, never even seen this speaker.

Specs suggest it is fairly sensitive (89db/watt) and the multiple driver setup will most likely give plenty of of everything.

Quality wise, I do not have a clue.

 

[SiUK]

Although I am happy with the sound quality of the Marantz M-CR610 (it provides an incredibly good sound for the price..detail is terriffic) I am still aiming to get something 'better' later.... With that in mind I unpacked my old kit (which I'd already packed up to flog on ebay) and tried out the CR610 pre outs connected to the Cyrus II and PSX (about £650 quids worth of amplifcation). There is no doubt about it the Cyrus II and PSX 'lift' the sound to another level. Can't say any differently. It's punchier, more analytical (to a fault sometimes), more controlled and you can hear that there are toroids under the lids; they have a character of their own I think. However, that said I have repacked up the Cyrus II and PSX and they are sitll going on ebay as I am looking for a 'different sound'. Had them for a long time but I want a change to be quite honest. And I'd actually like a lot more of the sound that the Marantz is giving me now; really is a musical and easy-to-live-with bit of kit!

After removing the Cyrus amp the change in sound was immediately noticable but the Marantz wasn't shamed in any way without the Cyrus ampflication. The CR610 is so capable it wasn't left standing at all, which quite surprised me...it has effortlessly handled every type of music I've thrown at it and I've enjoyed it all. It gets extra marks for the way how it handles classical and choral, vocals, acoustic and jazz. Okay, I can tell it doesn't have a £650 amp inside, but knowing that doesn't make it any less capable or enjoyable and I'm not thinking at any time, this is budget. On the contrary, I keep wondering how on earth Marantz get a small box with all the features it has to make such a good sound for the price. The Concept 20s are (IMO) an exellent match for the CR610 (I expect there are other speakers that'll be equally as good with it)..and I'm finding the Concept 20s so good they'll probably be with me for a long while yet (I could hear they had loads more to offer with the the Cyrus amp on the end of them).

I'm more than happy to have the Marantz M-CR610 as my main system component for the time being. I''ll definitely be upgrading in the nearish future (that was always my intention though) but having the Marantz M-CR610 and Concept 20s to listen to all my music now will make sure that there's no great hurry...and it sets the bar very high quite honestly as I'll be expecting a lot in terms of features and sound quality from my next bit of kit.

 

[chebby]

However, that said I have repacked up the Cyrus II and PSX and they are sitll going on ebay as I am looking for a 'different sound'. Had them for a long time but I want a change to be quite honest. And I'd actually like a lot more of the sound that the Marantz is giving me now; really is a musical and easy-to-live-with bit of kit!

After removing the Cyrus amp the change in sound was immediately noticable but the Marantz wasn't shamed in any way without the Cyrus ampflication. The CR610 is so capable it wasn't left standing at all, which quite surprised me...it has effortlessly handled every type of music I've thrown at it and I've enjoyed it all. It gets extra marks for the way how it handles classical and choral, vocals, acoustic and jazz. Okay, I can tell it doesn't have a £650 amp inside, but knowing that doesn't make it any less capable or enjoyable and I'm not thinking at any time, this is budget. On the contrary, I keep wondering how on earth Marantz get a small box with all the features it has to make such a good sound for the price.

I'm more than happy to have the Marantz M-CR610 as my main system component for the time being. I''ll definitely be upgrading in the nearish future (that was always my intention though) but having the Marantz M-CR610 and Concept 20s to listen to all my music now will make sure that there's no great hurry...and it sets the bar very high quite honestly as I'll be expecting a lot in terms of features and sound quality from my next bit of kit.

I could have said (in fact I did say) very much the same when I sold my Naim Nait 5i / CD5i / NAT05 system and bought the M-CR603 two and a half years ago.

Since then I have had many people 'assure' me that seperates would sound better and I could genuinely say "yes I know but that's not the point".

The Marantz sounds fantastic, in it's own right and on it's own terms, and allows me to enjoy music and speech content in ways I had not dreamt possible a few years before (and gave me back a good chunk of living room in the bargain).

Some people will not want to understand because the Marantz is a mini-system, it is flexible, it has class D amps, it is mass-market (or tending that way), it uses AirPlay (Apple? Boo hiss etc.) and it is bordering on being that worst of things to a hardcore 'audiophile' ... a lifestyle product. (Eek!)

Trouble is that I am still enjoying it hugely and more than I ever did with my old Naim system (part of which spent 6 months in it's box, before I finally sold it all, because I had got just plain depressed with it's looks and bulk and cables and 'neediness' and faff).

No point in having a system (even if it sounds better) if you can't bring yourself to switch it on sometimes!

 

[davedotco]

Very much to the point Chebby.

Sometimes, often in fact, the 'best' systems are the ones that we use the most. it helps tremendously if those systems are 'well sorted', that is working within their capabilities with well matched ancilliaries and providing a quality that is easy to listen too.

As a dealer one of the biggest issues that I had to deal with was 'enthusiasts' who assembled systems of poorly matched components that sounded inferior to systems at half the price. However gently and carefully you explained the problem, the tendency to 'shoot the messenger' was by far the most common reaction.

 

[drummerman]

How does the little 603 do power wise?

Is the soundstage and bass solid or does it tend towards a more 'detailed' but washed out sound? Is it dynamic with regards to ebb and flow of music?

I know they quote 60w but I doubt that is into an 8ohm load continuous. That plus 'class D' modules usually have little dynamic headroom.

May get one at their current £300 price but only heard one (603) a long time ago briefly.

regards

 

[matthewpiano]

Chebby

One of the best posts I've read on this forum and one with which I completely agree.

:cheers: