Marantz PM10

[manicm]

You misread my first post 'd/a' and I subsequently swapped it wrong as 'analogue to digital'.

No, I answered both your point about the DAC, which the SA-10 doesn't have, and about the analogue to digital conversion, which it also doesn't have.The whole point of the SA-10 is that it only uses an analogue low-pass filter between the DSD stream and the output.

What exactly are you smoking? From the website:

'The SA-10 is an exceptional player of both CD and SACD discs, but can also play high-resolution
music stored on computer-burned discs, as well as being a high-end digital to analogue converter
for computer-stored music.'

Please go to the website and stop smoking whatever is clogging your thoughts.

 

[spiny norman]

What exactly are you smoking? From the website:

'The SA-10 is an exceptional player of both CD and SACD discs, but can also play high-resolution music stored on computer-burned discs, as well as being a high-end digital to analogue converter for computer-stored music.'

Please go to the website and stop smoking whatev.er is clogging your thoughts.

Yes, I read the website. It may do what it says, in that it can take in a variety of formats from disc, USB media or a computer via asynchronous USB, but it does so without a conventional DAC, which was my point. Instead it simply uses an analogue filter.

The fact that I clearly understand this and you don't have a clue makes your offensive drug references all the more laughable.

 

[nopiano]

What exactly are you smoking? From the website:

'The SA-10 is an exceptional player of both CD and SACD discs, but can also play high-resolution music stored on computer-burned discs, as well as being a high-end digital to analogue converter for computer-stored music.'

Please go to the website and stop smoking whatev.er is clogging your thoughts.

Yes, I read the website. It may do what it says, in that it can take in a variety of formats from disc, USB media or a computer via asynchronous USB, but it does so without a conventional DAC, which was my point. Instead it simply uses an analogue filter.

The fact that I clearly understand this and you don't have a clue makes your offensive drug references all the more laughable.

...but no analogue filter can turn digits into music. Can it?

Rather than a proprietary DAC of the kind often used, some (such as Chord) program their own chips - my layman's term for something quite sophisticated. Maybe Marantz do so here? That can reduce the need for steep filtering which can cause ringing and other undesirable things, I believe.

 

[Al ears]

What exactly are you smoking? From the website:

'The SA-10 is an exceptional player of both CD and SACD discs, but can also play high-resolution music stored on computer-burned discs, as well as being a high-end digital to analogue converter for computer-stored music.'

Please go to the website and stop smoking whatev.er is clogging your thoughts.

Yes, I read the website. It may do what it says, in that it can take in a variety of formats from disc, USB media or a computer via asynchronous USB, but it does so without a conventional DAC, which was my point. Instead it simply uses an analogue filter.

The fact that I clearly understand this and you don't have a clue makes your offensive drug references all the more laughable.

...but no analogue filter can turn digits into music. Can it?

Rather than a proprietary DAC of the kind often used, some (such as Chord) program their own chips - my layman's term for something quite sophisticated. Maybe Marantz do so here? That can reduce the need for steep filtering which can cause ringing and other undesirable things, I believe.

Surely such things are purely semantics. This SACD player has a DAC. It has to have some form of conversion otherwise it's not going to work. And just what is a conventional DAC anyway?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi rick

not sure to be honest the PM-10 is a heavily spec amplifier and marantz has made it there reference range amplifier but not sure if I've got this correct but it uses 4 amplifiers into mono block setup with their own power supply for each of the 2 channels and it's a class D and you can switch it into bridge mode . I would say it would sound fantastic but you would have to spend the same kind of money on a set of speakers to do justice to the amplifier.

the amplifier weight is 22kg

Hi Bs25

The PM-10 certainly looks impressive and with a spec. to match

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[spiny norman]

Surely such things are purely semantics. This SACD player has a DAC. It has to have some form of conversion otherwise it's not going to work. And just what is a conventional DAC anyway?

Not really semantics. The whole beauty of DSD right from the start was that, due to its very high sampling rate and one-bit format, it was basically analogue all along. Or at least analogous to the analogue signal in a way other digital signals never were.

Back in the early days of DSD, there was much discussion of the fact simple portable players could be made as all that was required between the DSD datastream and analogue audio outputs was a simple low-pass analogue filter to remove all the ultrasonic noise, leaving the audio content intact. That, in essence, is what the new Marantz system does, and I'm sure I read in one of the news pieces about the new player a quote from the company saying that a DAC wasn't needed because DSD is already analogue.

So by initially upconverting/upsampling everything to quad-DSD at around 12MHz, as this player does, it ensures all that's needed is that (relatively) simple analogue filter at the output stage, not any conventional digital-to-analogue conversion system. That's what appears to be revolutionary here.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

You are spot on, Spiny. I highlighted the SA&PM10 tech several months ago in threads about class D -the PM alegedly uses a version of the Nord Ncore - and a SACD thread that was hijacked by the usual ill-informed naysayers. PS Audio employs the same method in their high-end DirectStream dacs.

http://www.psaudio.com/directstream-dac/

The launch by KI in Marantz EU HQ used the yet-to-be-launched Q Acoustics concept 500s

http://www.stereophile.com/content/first-look-marantzs-reference-10-series-dms-euro-hq#DQhIDbJJdiGDrCgw.97

 

[manicm]

You are spot on, Spiny. I highlighted the SA&PM10 tech several months ago in threads about class D -the PM alegedly uses a version of the Nord Ncore - and a SACD thread that was hijacked by the usual ill-informed naysayers. PS Audio employs the same method in their high-end DirectStream dacs.

http://www.psaudio.com/directstream-dac/

The launch by KI in Marantz EU HQ used the yet-to-be-launched Q Acoustics concept 500s

http://www.stereophile.com/content/first-look-marantzs-reference-10-series-dms-euro-hq#DQhIDbJJdiGDrCgw.97

The same website distinctly states it uses a digital to analogue converter. There is a digital and analogue stage. DSD is NOT analogue.

Quote from Marantz:

'However, the SA-10 takes things further – just as it features an all-new disc transport mechanism, so the digital to analogue conversion has also been subject to a radical rethink, taking full advantage of the 1-bit conversion technology found in past flagship Marantz players, and incorporating brand-new filtering and upconversion to take advantage of this simple, but elegant solution.'

'The MMM-Stream section[/b] of the process replaces the oversampling filters normally used in digital to analogue conversion, and allows the implementation of the Marantz Musical Mastering filtering. These filters – one providing a slow roll-off and very short impulse response, the other offering the option of a medium roll-off with short pre-ringing and longer post-ringing – are essentially the same as those found in the Marantz SA-11 disc player and NA-11 network music player, but here they’re implemented at a much higher oversampling rate, thanks to that upconversion to DSD11.2.

In fact, two system clocks[/b] are used, to ensure the most accurate upconversion of the incoming signal, whether its from disc or the digital inputs: the 44.1kHz of CD, and its multiples – 88.2kHz, 176.4kHz and so on – are upsampled to 11.2896kHz, while 48kHz and its multiples are taken up to 12.288kHz. This is done for maximum precision, and to avoid any need for sample rate conversion of the kind were the system to have to convert, say, 192kHz audio to DSD11.2.

In addition, all of this conversion is now done in Digital Signal Processing with 32-bit floating-point precision, rather than the 24-bit integer method used in such systems in the past.'[/b]

'[/b]Combining this with the reduction to a 1-bit signal straight after the oversampling filter and Sigma Delta Modulation allows a pure DSD-standard signal to be passed to the conversion section in the form of a very high-frequency stream of pulses, requiring only a very high-quality low-pass filter to remove all the superfluous high frequencies and pass the purest possible audio to the player’s output stage.'

 

[spiny norman]

'In addition, all of this conversion is now done in Digital Signal Processing with 32-bit floating-point precision, rather than the 24-bit integer method used in such systems in the past.'

Yes, that's the upconversion to quad DSD.

'Combining this with the reduction to a 1-bit signal straight after the oversampling filter and Sigma Delta Modulation allows a pure DSD-standard signal to be passed to the conversion section in the form of a very high-frequency stream of pulses, requiring only a very high-quality low-pass filter to remove all the superfluous high frequencies and pass the purest possible audio to the player’s output stage.'

Yes, as I've been saying all along. You're not getting this, are you?

 

[manicm]

'In addition, all of this conversion is now done in Digital Signal Processing with 32-bit floating-point precision, rather than the 24-bit integer method used in such systems in the past.'

Yes, that's the upconversion to quad DSD.

'Combining this with the reduction to a 1-bit signal straight after the oversampling filter and Sigma Delta Modulation allows a pure DSD-standard signal to be passed to the conversion section in the form of a very high-frequency stream of pulses, requiring only a very high-quality low-pass filter to remove all the superfluous high frequencies and pass the purest possible audio to the player’s output stage.'

Yes, as I've been saying all along. You're not getting this, are you?

The low pass filter is NOT the digital to analogue conversion - it precedes it and that's where you're wrong.

 

[spiny norman]

The low pass filter is NOT the digital to analogue conversion - it precedes it and that's where you're wrong.

No, there is nothing between the LPF and the HDAMs powering the analogue outputs.

 

[spiny norman]

Mind you, did you spot the mistake in the Marantz description of the process?

 

[manicm]

Spiny Norman - OK I think where you're at, and why I couldn't be 100% sure what you were saying is accurate.

The US official blurb uses the statement ' allowing the SA-10 to become the first player/USB-DAC that doesn’t actually have a DAC', whereas the UK blurb mentions no such thing. It offers a bit more info than the UK site.

Both blurbs state 'the SA-10 is a state-of-the-art digital-to-analog converter' however. I suspect Marantz is having jolly with semantics here, but now I see what they're getting at.

Then they also state:

'The digital-to-analog conversion process, available to both discs and external sources connected to the player’s digital inputs (which include asynchronous USB for the connection of a computer), is equally innovative. Rather than down-converting ultra-high-resolution files to suit a conventional digital to analog converter, as happens in some rival designs, the SA-10 upconverts everything to DSD256, in a process known as Marantz Musical Mastering – Conversion.'

But Sony have some components that convert PCM to DSD too.

 

[spiny norman]

But Sony have some components that convert PCM to DSD too.

Yes, but as far as I know they don't employ the ultra-simple output stage strategy used in the SA-10, which is what makes it unique.

 

[insider9]

But Sony have some components that convert PCM to DSD too.

Yes, but as far as I know they don't employ the ultra-simple output stage strategy used in the SA-10, which is what makes it unique.

Very interesting observations and a unique way indeed of doing this.

Way out of my league but thanks for pointing this out, nevertheless