Mains Upgrade

[True Blue]

Right, time for my two penneth worth.

Firstly demo some on 60 day return, if you like them keep them if not return them. No loss only you can decide.

Secondly, when you were younger and the aerial snapped on your radio or you couldn't get a decent signal for your radio, what would you do?? You would attach a piece of wire and the signal would improve. This is because ALL wires are aerials whether they be interconnects OR mains cables. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency_interference

The idea that mains cables clean up the mains is false because as rightly stated you cannot adjust the voltage, current or whatever within the cable, however you CAN prevent any unwanted signals by correctly shielding the cables. This additional "noise" in a circuit can be transmitted into the delicate audio circuits within modern amplifiers. So by preventing any "aerial" effect you are preserving the nature of the sound. This is especially true from an interconnect point of view.

Why would we spend £££'s on mains cables when the equipment has sophisticated transformers inside? Because in this instance as with any for mains cables, you are stopping the being an aerial and ensuring the most unpolluted mains signal arrives at the transformer. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY you are preventing the mains cable's EMI from radiating and interfering with the signal (interconnects / amplifier jacks, yes these too pollute the internal delicate amplifier). Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz's_law and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday's_law_of_induction

So why would we spend £££££'s on a new mains cable if the rest of the house is wired with rubbish wire? Due to the low voltages (relatively) the amount of radiated EFI and RFI will not transmit and be picked up by the delicate electronics. However the last 1-2m is connected directly next to your beloved HIFI and Interconnects.

Why would manufacturers not include a decent cable in the box. Basic economics of mass production and no need for R&D. So keeping their costs down and increasing their profit margin. As stated a mains cable is a mains cable from a VI point of view.

Pollution of mains and the solution, in every house there are many sources of interference electrically, whether it is that wireless door bell, your wireless transmitter, large switching loads (tumble driers, fridges freezers, washing machines etc), these are usually placed on the ring main, the same one as your HIFI. These interferences distort the incoming AC sine wave and make it less smooth, so the cheapest option is to purchase a mains conditioner which smoothes out this Rough AC, most situations with most households this is enough.

However to fully clean up the mains a seperate CCT (and preferably consumer unit) is required to completely isolate the HIFI supply from the rest of the houses electrical circuits.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS ONLY YOU CAN DECIDE IF YOU CAN HEAR A CHANGE IN SOUND THAT YOU PREFER OR NOT

 

[Anonymous]

Not in the least I simply meant to suggest that the tests where of "dubious value" in a real world situation. But as I keep saying if you (or anyone else) wants to spend their money on mains cables go right ahead.

Good thing about this forum is that it's a broad church, there's room for a wide spectrum of opinion and long may it remain so.

It's all about the music anyway. Enjoy.

 

[aliEnRIK]

True Blue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency_interference
The idea that mains cables clean up the mains is false because as rightly stated you cannot adjust the voltage, current or whatever within the cable, however you CAN prevent any unwanted signals by correctly shielding the cables. This additional "noise" in a circuit can be transmitted into the delicate audio circuits within modern amplifiers. So by preventing any "aerial" effect you are preserving the nature of the sound. This is especially true from an interconnect point of view.

The whole point of Bens experiment we talk of above is that the cables 'measureably' lessened RFI 'in' the supply. So id say your statement is false there

 

[visionary]

JoelSim:
Mains cables make a difference in my experience. I wouldn't go spending loads on budget kit, but as a little upgrade on expensive kit they are well worth it.

but you have to admit some of them are pretty colours

 

[True Blue]

aliEnRIK:True Blue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency_interference
The idea that mains cables clean up the mains is false because as rightly stated you cannot adjust the voltage, current or whatever within the cable, however you CAN prevent any unwanted signals by correctly shielding the cables. This additional "noise" in a circuit can be transmitted into the delicate audio circuits within modern amplifiers. So by preventing any "aerial" effect you are preserving the nature of the sound. This is especially true from an interconnect point of view.

The whole point of Bens experiment we talk of above is that the cables 'measureably' lessened RFI 'in' the supply. So id say your statement is false there


No the statement is correct, a cable cannot affect the sinusoidal properties of AC, however as the experiments do prove the Transmitted and Recieved RFI is reduced (aerial effect) through improved shielding.

 

[True Blue]

visionary:JoelSim:
Mains cables make a difference in my experience. I wouldn't go spending loads on budget kit, but as a little upgrade on expensive kit they are well worth it.

but you have to admit some of them are pretty colours

Agreed LOL, Old "orange" powerchords for my AV and New "purple" powerchords for my HIFI

 

[aliEnRIK]

True Blue:aliEnRIK:True Blue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency_interference
The idea that mains cables clean up the mains is false because as rightly stated you cannot adjust the voltage, current or whatever within the cable, however you CAN prevent any unwanted signals by correctly shielding the cables. This additional "noise" in a circuit can be transmitted into the delicate audio circuits within modern amplifiers. So by preventing any "aerial" effect you are preserving the nature of the sound. This is especially true from an interconnect point of view.

The whole point of Bens experiment we talk of above is that the cables 'measureably' lessened RFI 'in' the supply. So id say your statement is false there


No the statement is correct, a cable cannot affect the sinusoidal properties of AC, however as the experiments do prove the Transmitted and Recieved RFI is reduced (aerial effect) through improved shielding.

My bad, the way it was worded sounded like they could only affect airbourne EMI

 

[Anonymous]

See we are on that 'old chestnut' again.

Personally I tried Russ Andrews classic PowerKords and Superclamps over 20 years ago.

Nice improvement to the music, so I kept them!
Been using them ever since along with Kimber 4TC speaker cable.

His stuff clearly works for me and his business has grown nicely over the years, so many other people must feel the same.

On a slightly different angle.....

My Cousin has one of the top 75 Recording Studios in the UK. The mains feed into the premises is a 3 phased supply. This gives big advantages over single current supplies which is what domestic supplies run on.
The phase currents cancel out one another, summing to zero in the case of a linear balanced load. This makes it possible to eliminate or reduce the size of the neutral conductor; all the phase conductors carry the same current and so can be the same size, for a balanced load.
# Power transfer into a linear balanced load is constant, which helps to reduce generator and motor vibrations.
Isolation transformers are also used for supply to some things so everything is stable and uncoloured by the supply.
That's how the big boys do it, and I do notice a big improvement by having a clean mains in my home.

 

[aliEnRIK]

trevor79:See we are on that 'old chestnut' again. Personally I tried Russ Andrews classic PowerKords and Superclamps over 20 years ago. Nice improvement to the music, so I kept them! Been using them ever since along with Kimber 4TC speaker cable. His stuff clearly works for me and his business has grown nicely over the years, so many other people must feel the same. On a slightly different angle..... My Cousin has one of the top 75 Recording Studios in the UK. The mains feed into the premises is a 3 phased supply. This gives big advantages over single current supplies which is what domestic supplies run on. The phase currents cancel out one another, summing to zero in the case of a linear balanced load. This makes it possible to eliminate or reduce the size of the neutral conductor; all the phase conductors carry the same current and so can be the same size, for a balanced load. # Power transfer into a linear balanced load is constant, which helps to reduce generator and motor vibrations. Isolation transformers are also used for supply to some things so everything is stable and uncoloured by the supply. That's how the big boys do it, and I do notice a big improvement by having a clean mains in my home.

Good post as always Trevor

Fascinating too, I never realised proper studios already had balanced mains supplies!

 

[Anonymous]

No cross talk either off one instrument / mike to another, each have there own feed.

Kettle leads are fine as they are being fed with clean mains, plus no overloading on current supply demands (which aren't huge, the air con uses more!)
Yamaha monitors are used for playback / mixing in the studios.
Interesting stuff.

 

[bigboss]

aliEnRIK: What were the cords? Any braided ones in there? Was there RFI present at the demonstration or was it already cleared of RFI? Was there any EMI? Were the cords new or used?

These are just some of the reasons ive found that could give random results in blind testing

If you google "ABX blind test power cords Oakland California", you'll get the complete study in full details.

The test was between the standard power cord that came with the equipment & Nordost Valhalla Power Cord which is worth £1800.

The summary of the test result is:

"High-priced cables are based on voodoo science, designed for gullible consumers who are swayed by their cost, looks, and status symbol appeal that they delude themselves into believing they hear differences when such differences do not exist. The proof that the differences do not exist is that they are neither measurable nor provable in blind testing."

Personally, if I have that kind of money, I'll spend on a better blu-ray player & AV receiver which will give far superior results.

 

[Anonymous]

bigboss:aliEnRIK: What were the cords? Any braided ones in there? Was there RFI present at the demonstration or was it already cleared of RFI? Was there any EMI? Were the cords new or used?
These are just some of the reasons ive found that could give random results in blind testing

If you google "ABX blind test power cords Oakland California", you'll get the complete study in full details.

The test was between the standard power cord that came with the equipment & Nordost Valhalla Power Cord which is worth £1800.

The summary of the test result is:

"High-priced cables are based on voodoo science, designed for gullible consumers who are swayed by their cost, looks, and status symbol appeal that they delude themselves into believing they hear differences when such differences do not exist. The proof that the differences do not exist is that they are neither measurable nor provable in blind testing."

Personally, if I have that kind of money, I'll spend on a better blu-ray player & AV receiver which will give far superior results.
Spot on, BB. But you'll not convince anyone. Better spend the £1800 than admit to being wrong....

 

[bigboss]

Very true Tarquinh. All information is available online. People can research themselves & take a decision. I take studies sponsored by these power cord manufacturers with a pinch of salt. Proving that there's no perceptible difference will only close their business. A lot is at stake here for them.

If you still want to buy an expensive power cord, so be it. If you're convinced that you'll notice a difference, YOU WILL notice a difference & so you'll be happy with your purchase.

 

[007L2Thrill]

My last comment on this, to you none believers, if you think all mains cables are just pointless then please answer me this, with all the reviews on mains cables in what hifi are you saying they are just making it up?

 

[idc]

I do not think they are making it up. Problem is that the differences are not universal, which you would expect them to be if there was a solid scientific, electrical reason for them to make a difference. Then, the majority of ABX/blind tests find that the alleged differences disappear. No one has satisfactorily squared that circle, and no one is likely to.

 

[bigboss]

007L2Thrill:

My last comment on this, to you none believers, if you think all mains cables are just pointless then please answer me this, with all the reviews on mains cables in what hifi are you saying they are just making it up?

As idc correctly pointed out, I don't think they're making it up. WHF reviews are the opinions of WHF reviewers. It's a subjective test. This debate (of whether mains cables make a difference) will continue forever with no right or wrong answer.

For example, read the 'BIG QUESTION' in the latest WHF issue. Check how varied the reviewers' opinions can be. It does not mean that any of them was making it up.

 

[007L2Thrill]

Cheers guys, that's what's great about forums that everyone as there own opinion.

 

[aliEnRIK]

bigboss:aliEnRIK: What were the cords? Any braided ones in there? Was there RFI present at the demonstration or was it already cleared of RFI? Was there any EMI? Were the cords new or used?

These are just some of the reasons ive found that could give random results in blind testing

If you google "ABX blind test power cords Oakland California", you'll get the complete study in full details.

The test was between the standard power cord that came with the equipment & Nordost Valhalla Power Cord which is worth £1800.

The summary of the test result is:

"High-priced cables are based on voodoo science, designed for gullible consumers who are swayed by their cost, looks, and status symbol appeal that they delude themselves into believing they hear differences when such differences do not exist. The proof that the differences do not exist is that they are neither measurable nor provable in blind testing."

Personally, if I have that kind of money, I'll spend on a better blu-ray player & AV receiver which will give far superior results.

Ive seen that test before(Didnt realise thats what the video was referring to)

Actually the conclusion is this ~

"To many in the engineering community, blind ABX is an accepted experimental design. Using the blind ABX protocol, we failed to hear any differences between an assortment of generic power cords and Nordost Valhalla. Therefore, we cannot conclude that different power cords produce a difference using the blind ABX protocol. However, we also cannot conclude that there are no differences. We simply failed to prove that differences can be detected to a statistically significant degree using a blind ABX protocol."

Which goes some way to stating that blind tests in themselves are unreliable. Which ive been saying all along.

That said I have to agree with you, 1800 for a cable is beyond rediculous unless its for the ultimate setup from a guy with money to burn

 

[Anonymous]

it just seems strange to me , that blind tests fail to determine if these cables make a difference either way , much the same as with hdmi cables , yet some reviewers , and users like tb and rik etc , find differences , in the case of some reviewers , these differences are crystal clear , given the adjectives they use to describe what they see and hear ..

yet other , similar reviewers dont see or hear these differences at all ?? its a funny old world innit

 

[aliEnRIK]

maxflinn:

it just seems strange to me , that blind tests fail to determine if these cables make a difference either way , much the same as with hdmi cables , yet some reviewers , and users like tb and rik etc , find differences , in the case of some reviewers , these differences are crystal clear , given the adjectives they use to describe what they see and hear ..

yet other , similar reviewers dont see or hear these differences at all ?? its a funny old world innit

As ive said before (And this is just my personal opinion), blinds tests are flawed mainly because they require random people.

Ive seen a small blind test done on another site. There were 2 who were sceptics and 2 cable believers (Hardly big numbers I admit). Of the sceptics, one simply couldnt determine any differences (This was in interconnect cables), one 'thought' he could tell a slight difference.

Of the believers, the 'golden ears' got them all right 100% (Even though they tried to trick him at one point). The other was getting approx 80% right

Seems to me that some people will tell differences (More aware, better hearing or whatever) better than others.

So in MY blind tests, id select say 10 groups of 10, blind test them, then select the top 10 of the 100 and blind test them for the proper result. Assuming there are differences and the golden eared/eyed could actually tell distinct differences then your going some way to show that differences do exist (In whatevers being tested)

When somone comes on saying ive tried product 'X' and it never made a difference there could be a whole load of reasons why. Heck, ive got a mate who cant tell the difference between SD content and HD so what chance has he of seeing differences in HDMI cables?(If there are)

Then youve got any number of other problems ~ where the people are sat (not in the sweet spot wont help), RFI in the mains? EMI in the air? Wobbly speakers etc etc. All these could nullify any differences

 

[bigboss]

There's no real way of proving whether mains cables make a difference, unless someone conducts a test with a very large sample size which won't be easy (requires a lot of funding etc.).

I think the bottomline is, if you're a non-believer, don't bother upgrading your cables because you won't notice a difference. Better spend the money on upgrading your equipment. And if you're a believer, there's a big market out there for you & you are likely to notice a difference. I remember ValianTX not noticing a difference. He's probably in the category of non-believers. I haven't seen ValianTX for a while here.

By the way, where's the OP? Seems to have disappeared after setting up a nice little debate here......

 

[idc]

There was a power cord blind ABX test where 23 members of a forum each had a turn with four power cords made to look the same. Two were identical kettle leads, one was an audiophile cable and one was DIY. After 7 months the results were that no one could conclusively identify the kettle lead. Eight found differences between the two identical kettle leads.

There are no large scale tests, but there are enough smaller similar tests to show with cables there are not enough differences so that people can reliably and consistently pick between them.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:

There was a power cord blind ABX test where 23 members of a forum each had a turn with four power cords made to look the same. Two were identical kettle leads, one was an audiophile cable and one was DIY. After 7 months the results were that no one could conclusively identify the kettle lead. Eight found differences between the two identical kettle leads.

There are no large scale tests, but there are enough smaller similar tests to show with cables there are not enough differences so that people can reliably and consistently pick between them.

Which again goes to show how fallible blind tests are. Which 'audiophile' cable was it and what was special about the DIY cable?

 

[idc]

I cannot get into the site that did the test at the moment, but the audiophile cable was not an outrageously expensive one and the DIY cable was made with low grade components and there was nothing special about it.

In medicine and other ares where ABX/blind tests are used, if there are a series of tests that show no difference between say a medicine and a placebo, the tests are not flawed, the medicine does not work. Why should that not be the case with cable or other audiophile blind tests?

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:

I cannot get into the site that did the test at the moment, but the audiophile cable was not an outrageously expensive one and the DIY cable was made with low grade components and there was nothing special about it.

In medicine and other ares where ABX/blind tests are used, if there are a series of tests that show no difference between say a medicine and a placebo, the tests are not flawed, the medicine does not work. Why should that not be the case with cable or other audiophile blind tests?

If I was injected with something and I came up with a rash all over my body then 'something' has clearly happened.

If they (As they already have) tested millions with 'placebos' then they get an idea of numbers of people as a percentage who dont have a clue what time of day it is

If 8 people out of that group truly thought there was a difference between 2 identical cables, then there either was a difference (Quite possible), or it proves that blind tests are not to be trusted when trying to 'hear' differences (especially using random people).

That particular test of yours doesnt really prove anything. All it proves is that no one could tell a difference between 'those' cables, and that some even thought they could with (seemingly) identical cables.

As ive alread stated, id choose the top 1% (Or whatever) to do the actual blind testing. Having actual measureable data helps too (if you can measure differences, then people need to prove that those differences are perceptable, even if only to say 1 in a thousand or whatever). If they can provide answers well over 50% then we're onto something