Loving music and loving hifi

[hoopsontoast]

Its built for the pure delivery and enjoyment of music. Not to look good or any other consideration.

I doubt this very much. I doubt there are no other considerations at all that affect your decisions about the equipment you use.

For one thing, I'd imagine that building your own hi-fi kit, and building it in such a way that it not only replays music well but also looks well made, gives you satisfaction and pride in your work. And I'd also suggest that posting descriptions of your experience and pictures of your kit on hi-fi forums are part of this satisfaction.

If you feel no such satisfaction at all, then you're an extremely unusual human being.

Just to be clear: for me there's nothing wrong with getting satisfaction in these ways. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Well, it was more that my choice in components, was not swayed by looks or brand just on its performace. I appreciate well made or designed kit but if its not pushing my buttons its not staying.

I feel satisfaction in what I have made but I did not build it for that satisfaction, more on that it was simply cheaper than buying a factory direct model or commercial model.

This is why I probably have ended up with such an odd mix of hifi bits as each part was purchased for its cost/performance rather than say having to look nice in a rack or match veneer to the furniture and such like.

 

[matthewpiano]

My first love and priority is music and first and foremost I want my hi-fi to bring a wide range of music to life in my living space so that I can really engage with it. However, I am also interested in hi-fi itself. I've always found the whole idea fascinating - that a cut diamond tracing grooves on an LP can be turned into music, or the process of a shiny silver disc disappearing into the depths of a CD player for a laser to turn the information held within into music. I still think hi-fi and recording is an astonishing achievement and I am still often in awe of what can be achieved.

When choosing equipment sound is no.1. It has to convincingly portray the music. There is nothing worse than a system which attempts to execute all the hi-fi things like imaging, dynamics, tonal reproduction etc. but falls appreciably short. However, the tactile experience of operating equipment (a real strength of my current Denon kit), the functionality it offers and aesthetics are also important to me and it would be wrong to pretend otherwise.

 

[DandyCobalt]

I love to hear what the recording artists actually recorded and want us to hear. Not a tinny mess (like young people listen to through their mobile phone speaker - how can they do that - it's just noise, not music!)

I know that a mono speaker ( something like a Fostex 6301B) is used in studios to hear what a fairly cruddy mono mix of the track will sound like, as this is will be the way that most folks will actually hear the track. The mix may be changed to allow for this compromise.

Better kit brings out more of the original music, and I would far prefer to listen to good music through a good hifi system.

Getting to know what kit may work well together, doing the research, appreciating the aesthetics etc, is enjoying hifi, so that the music can be appreciated more.

 

[matt49]

I feel satisfaction in what I have made but I did not build it for that satisfaction, more on that it was simply cheaper than buying a factory direct model or commercial model.

Fair enough, I didn't want to suggestion that the satisfaction of a job well done was your only motivation. I just thought what you said was a good example of people perhaps not fully admitting that their motivation is somewhat mixed. When people say "the music's the only thing that matters", well, it's always a bit (and sometimes a lot) more complicated than that.

Matt

 

[hoopsontoast]

I feel satisfaction in what I have made but I did not build it for that satisfaction, more on that it was simply cheaper than buying a factory direct model or commercial model.

Fair enough, I didn't want to suggestion that the satisfaction of a job well done was your only motivation. I just thought what you said was a good example of people perhaps not fully admitting that their motivation is somewhat mixed. When people say "the music's the only thing that matters", well, it's always a bit (and sometimes a lot) more complicated than that.

Matt

Yes, I would agree that sometimes features, convinience and looks do play a part in the selection of components.

For example, I actually quite like the looks and features of big Battleship style amps that I have had such as the Denon PMA-2000AE and Sony TA-F770ES, and they do sound great but dont meet my needs at this moment in time.

I chose my pre amplifier as it was a tube model, a very good price and it comes with a highly acclaimed tube MM and MC/SUT stage built in which I guess is convinience. But it was bought blind like most of the Kit I have and have had. I dont like the way it looks but it sounds great so it stays in the system.

 

[SiUK]

For me it is has always been music first (from a child) and then the means to listen to it or play it back naturally followed. And it really is all about context I think.

At a concert in a muddy field or the pub up the road I'll listen to a live band or bands (whether I want to or not sometimes ;-) ) and - generally - it'll be the music I'm going there to listen to. It's really not so much about the sound quality as the experience and enjoyment of being in that environment where everyone has gone to listen to music and socialise. When I'm at work I often hear music screeching out through a really cheap radio, except when I'm plugged into a portable, and although the radio sound is actually horrible I still (unfortunately for others) make a noise along with songs I recognise and enjoy, because it's the about the music. It's context and common sense. I don't expect a cheap radio to be anything other than what it is...but it's still producing music.

At home I have music in my bedroom, because I like listening to music before bed... whilst reading. I don't expect it to blow me away, but I expect it to be enjoyable..but not to be as good as a rack of dedicated audio equipment costing £5K (I should be so lucky)...it's my bedroom and I sleep there.

And that's when the hi-fi 'hobby' comes in (IMO)...at the end of all that. It's just an extension of the overall desire to listen to music (for most I hope). On the surface the kit may then seem to matter more than the music does to others but really that isn't the case in any way (although styling etc can be important due to location of equipment), because it's still in the context of that Hi-Fi hobby and the hobby is all about playing music you enjoy listening to. You have certain expectations that need to be met because you are often spending significant sums of hard earned money on audio equiment that promises to allow you experience music in a way that increases your listening pleasure but without the music....

So it's simply context.

 

[chebby]

Not just music.

 

[chebby]

Totally invisible hi-fi would be my ideal.

So I guess I don't love hi-fi.

 

[the record spot]

I grew up listening to music on a Stella transistor radio and a Dansette Viva. This would be the late 60s. A pal had a hifi and his married sister had a (then very cool) Technics system. Shops like Hi Fi Corner were doing good trade in Edinburgh and I got into the whole hifi thing then. My dad bought our first stereo - a Pioneer Receiver, Wharfedale Laser 60 speakers, a Fisher tunrtable and maybe a Pioneer tape deck as well. That came from Comet in 1982. It's been onwards and upwards since then. Always loved the music though simply for the sheer pleasure it brings. The hifi is a hobby that's on the wane as I'm getting the functionality I want from the current setup at the quality I want too. The hobby's fun, but the days of going to shows are a thing of the past. Still interested in the whole realm of hifi though and subscribe to Hi Fi World still (the WHFS&V subscription went when they put my price up).

 

[davedotco]

On another thread, davedotco just said the following:

I love my music and I love my hi-fi, they are not at all the same thing.

I don't understand why some people just can't understand that.

which I found very interesting, so thought it might be worth discussing. So, discuss...

So in conclusion we all agree with davedotco and he isn't the misunderstood genius/rebel he likes to think he is.

What I don't understand is why he said what he said when he said it, as it didn't appear to have any relevance to the discussion at hand.

Morning, just.

The post was made in response to several posts that were designed to ridicule the 'hi-fi' entusiast by writing the usual hackneyed old rubbish about foot tapping and golden ears, not 'liking' music and the rest.

I just find it odd that someone who is 'into' hi-fi as a hobby, interested in how music is made, recorded and the different ways that it can be played back in the home, is automatically considered not to be 'really' into the music. I think this is simply posturing by those who consider themselves superior in terms of musical appreciation.

 

[John Duncan]

I just find it odd that someone who is 'into' hi-fi as a hobby, interested in how music is made, recorded and the different ways that it can be played back in the home, is automatically considered not to be 'really' into the music. I think this is simply posturing by those who consider themselves superior in terms of musical appreciation.

See also 'classically trained musicians'. Like musicians who are not classically trained (like me, having played various instruments over forty years) cannot have an opinion on how a hifi might sound.

 

[davedotco]

I just find it odd that someone who is 'into' hi-fi as a hobby, interested in how music is made, recorded and the different ways that it can be played back in the home, is automatically considered not to be 'really' into the music. I think this is simply posturing by those who consider themselves superior in terms of musical appreciation.

See also 'classically trained musicians'. Like musicians who are not classically trained (like me, having played various instruments over forty years) cannot have an opinion on how a hifi might sound.

The most potent words on this subject was said to a trumpeter, who was told, in rather 'fruity' language by a producer....

"How the bl**dy hell would you know what a trumpet sounds like, you're listening to it from the wrong bl**dy end"!

Probably apocriphal, along with the one to the femail cellist about "only ever hearing an instrument when it is stuck between her legs".

Still, the old ones are the best!

Beware of having an opinion though, you know what is said about them....

 

[JMacMan]

I just find it odd that someone who is 'into' hi-fi as a hobby, interested in how music is made, recorded and the different ways that it can be played back in the home, is automatically considered not to be 'really' into the music. I think this is simply posturing by those who consider themselves superior in terms of musical appreciation.

See also 'classically trained musicians'. Like musicians who are not classically trained (like me, having played various instruments over forty years) cannot have an opinion on how a hifi might sound.

*Blushes* Now you've made me feel all embarrassed! I have used that term from time to time, not I hasten to add because I think I am, or have 'superior' musical appreciation, but rather that i was actually trained and have performed regularly in the classical field, and mainly that I play acoustic instruments, so I have the benefit of a reasonably 'natural' reference I guess, whereas it could perhaps be fairly argued that electronic instruments as a genre vary so much, it is hard to use them as a reliable 'natural sounding' reference - IMHO of course.

My actual listening tastes are quite eclectic and by no means limited to acoustic music, or classical for that matter.

JB...

 

[busb]

One is the means & the other important one is the end. Simples!

People spend money on stuff for varying reasons: some because they actually love music & some becase they can afford to. I've met people with expsnsive bikes who are left standing on group rides, I've met some with expsnsive SLRs who have sneered at my compact & who can't compose a shot to save their lives. I've met teenagers with no money but enviable talent & people nearing heaven who have been happy with radios all their lives.

The idea that the more money spent on the means indicates the a greater love of music, photogrpahic talent or being first up hills is pure myth! A friend talked himself into buying a £1500 DAC. That's fine with me - it's his money afterall but when he states that music that was unlistenable with his previous £600 M-DAC, sounds fine on his new one - I do wonder. It sounds like justification after the event to me! There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not.

 

[davedotco]

One is the means & the other important one is the end. Simples!

People spend money on stuff for varying reasons: some because they actually love music & some becase they can afford to. I've met people with expsnsive bikes who are left standing on group rides, I've met some with expsnsive SLRs who have sneered at my compact & who can't compose a shot to save their lives. I've met teenagers with no money but enviable talent & people nearing heaven who have been happy with radios all their lives.

The idea that the more money spent on the means indicates the a greater love of music, photogrpahic talent or being first up hills is pure myth! A friend talked himself into buying a £1500 DAC. That's fine with me - it's his money afterall but when he states that music that was unlistenable with his previous £600 M-DAC, sounds fine on his new one - I do wonder. It sounds like justification after the event to me! There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not.

This post is for me, the biggest issue.

The assumption that the sort of equipment that you choose somehow reflects on your ability to enjoy and appreciate music is nonsense of the highest level and all too common.

The main reason I made the post in the first place.

 

[busb]

One is the means & the other important one is the end. Simples!

People spend money on stuff for varying reasons: some because they actually love music & some becase they can afford to. I've met people with expsnsive bikes who are left standing on group rides, I've met some with expsnsive SLRs who have sneered at my compact & who can't compose a shot to save their lives. I've met teenagers with no money but enviable talent & people nearing heaven who have been happy with radios all their lives.

The idea that the more money spent on the means indicates the a greater love of music, photographic talent or being first up hills is pure myth! A friend talked himself into buying a £1500 DAC. That's fine with me - it's his money afterall but when he states that music that was unlistenable with his previous £600 M-DAC, sounds fine on his new one - I do wonder. It sounds like justification after the event to me! There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not.

This post is for me, the biggest issue.

The assumption that the sort of equipment that you choose somehow reflects on your ability to enjoy and appreciate music is nonsense of the highest level and all too common.

The main reason I made the post in the first place.

?? Err - that's the point I was making! I'm unsure if you are agreeing or dissagreeing with me here, Dave.

 

[davedotco]

One is the means & the other important one is the end. Simples!

People spend money on stuff for varying reasons: some because they actually love music & some becase they can afford to. I've met people with expsnsive bikes who are left standing on group rides, I've met some with expsnsive SLRs who have sneered at my compact & who can't compose a shot to save their lives. I've met teenagers with no money but enviable talent & people nearing heaven who have been happy with radios all their lives.

The idea that the more money spent on the means indicates the a greater love of music, photographic talent or being first up hills is pure myth! A friend talked himself into buying a £1500 DAC. That's fine with me - it's his money afterall but when he states that music that was unlistenable with his previous £600 M-DAC, sounds fine on his new one - I do wonder. It sounds like justification after the event to me! There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not.

This post is for me, the biggest issue.

The assumption that the sort of equipment that you choose somehow reflects on your ability to enjoy and appreciate music is nonsense of the highest level and all too common.

The main reason I made the post in the first place.

?? Err - that's the point I was making! I'm unsure if you are agreeing or dissagreeing with me here, Dave.

To be honest i found your post a little unclear. Some of what you said seemed quite disparaging to those entusiasts who choose to spend time and money on a better system, thinking about the comments re the chap with the dac and the final lines about headphone listeners.

To make my views absolutely clear, I think hi-fi, in a pure sense, has nothing to do with music, they are separate things, both of which can be enjoyed largely without the other. You may use recordings of music to evaluate the hi-fi, but in this instance the music is secondary to the hi-fi, and it is this that many people have a problem with.

 

[p_m_brown]

Really interesting post this one, and I agree with a lot of what has been mentioned.

For me, hifi has become a necessary tool to truely enjoy music. I have been a musician for around 20 years, albeit far less talented than you classic players out there given I only play drums and bass but feel I know what a group of folks playing instruments should sound like. But, listening to the radio or my Dads Sanyo music centre is where it all stemmed from and I have found it a fascinating journey listening to vinyl, tape, cd, back to vinyl and more recently dacs and the such.

For me, the music comes first and excites me today as it did when I first listened out to certain guitar riffs of vocal melodies or indeed awesome drum beats! But, I also love listening to music in a way that fully emerges me in the performance for that, hi fi is very much an enabler. Looking good is important to me too, as Matt49 mentioned, and the tweaking element is all part and parcel of more accurate music reproduction to me!

 

[busb]

One is the means & the other important one is the end. Simples!

People spend money on stuff for varying reasons: some because they actually love music & some becase they can afford to. I've met people with expsnsive bikes who are left standing on group rides, I've met some with expsnsive SLRs who have sneered at my compact & who can't compose a shot to save their lives. I've met teenagers with no money but enviable talent & people nearing heaven who have been happy with radios all their lives.

The idea that the more money spent on the means indicates the a greater love of music, photographic talent or being first up hills is pure myth! A friend talked himself into buying a £1500 DAC. That's fine with me - it's his money afterall but when he states that music that was unlistenable with his previous £600 M-DAC, sounds fine on his new one - I do wonder. It sounds like justification after the event to me! There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not.

This post is for me, the biggest issue.

The assumption that the sort of equipment that you choose somehow reflects on your ability to enjoy and appreciate music is nonsense of the highest level and all too common.

The main reason I made the post in the first place.

?? Err - that's the point I was making! I'm unsure if you are agreeing or dissagreeing with me here, Dave.

To be honest i found your post a little unclear. Some of what you said seemed quite disparaging to those entusiasts who choose to spend time and money on a better system, thinking about the comments re the chap with the dac and the final lines about headphone listeners.

To make my views absolutely clear, I think hi-fi, in a pure sense, has nothing to do with music, they are separate things, both of which can be enjoyed largely without the other. You may use recordings of music to evaluate the hi-fi, but in this instance the music is secondary to the hi-fi, and it is this that many people have a problem with.

Dave, as Mr Spock would say: "fascinating!"

To quote myself:

"There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not."

I thought this was perfectly obvious - I'm commenting on the fact that millions of people are enjoying music on iPods, phones, MP3 players without resorting to either buying or needing expensive equipment. My point being that they are enjoying the music! I'm at a loss how it could be considered disparaging to them. If someone who's spent huge amounts of money on Hi-Fi is offended - I ain't going to loose no sleep!

As for my friend, he's showing unwise purchasing decisions & I'm hoping I don't need to lend him money again! It would be unfair to say anymore so I won't. I thought I was poor at money management - obviously I'm in a minor league.

Dave, judging by some of the replies to your posts from others, you appear to unintentionally upsetting a few regulars - myself excluded - I'm generally thick-skinned. This may sound offensive but I suggest you read more thoroughly. I do find some posts here & elsewhere to be pretty obscure or need to be read several times to understand them & maybe some find mine the same of course!

If people buy Hi Fi equipment as an end in itself with music being incidental - it's harmless enough, it increases the number of folk buying therefore creating demand & stabilises prices. I'm not going to complain about that - just don't expect much empathy from music fans! If I bought an expensive musical instrument but never bothered to learn to play it even badly, I'd expect no less than amusement to derision from others & would deserve the latter.

 

[davedotco]

One is the means & the other important one is the end. Simples!

People spend money on stuff for varying reasons: some because they actually love music & some becase they can afford to. I've met people with expsnsive bikes who are left standing on group rides, I've met some with expsnsive SLRs who have sneered at my compact & who can't compose a shot to save their lives. I've met teenagers with no money but enviable talent & people nearing heaven who have been happy with radios all their lives.

The idea that the more money spent on the means indicates the a greater love of music, photographic talent or being first up hills is pure myth! A friend talked himself into buying a £1500 DAC. That's fine with me - it's his money afterall but when he states that music that was unlistenable with his previous £600 M-DAC, sounds fine on his new one - I do wonder. It sounds like justification after the event to me! There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not.

This post is for me, the biggest issue.

The assumption that the sort of equipment that you choose somehow reflects on your ability to enjoy and appreciate music is nonsense of the highest level and all too common.

The main reason I made the post in the first place.

?? Err - that's the point I was making! I'm unsure if you are agreeing or dissagreeing with me here, Dave.

To be honest i found your post a little unclear. Some of what you said seemed quite disparaging to those entusiasts who choose to spend time and money on a better system, thinking about the comments re the chap with the dac and the final lines about headphone listeners.

To make my views absolutely clear, I think hi-fi, in a pure sense, has nothing to do with music, they are separate things, both of which can be enjoyed largely without the other. You may use recordings of music to evaluate the hi-fi, but in this instance the music is secondary to the hi-fi, and it is this that many people have a problem with.

Dave, as Mr Spock would say: "fascinating!"

To quote myself:

"There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not."

I thought this was perfectly obvious - I'm commenting on the fact that millions of people are enjoying music on iPods, phones, MP3 players without resorting to either buying or needing expensive equipment. My point being that they are enjoying the music! I'm at a loss how it could be considered disparaging to them. If someone who's spent huge amounts of money on Hi-Fi is offended - I ain't going to loose no sleep!

As for my friend, he's showing unwise purchasing decisions & I'm hoping I don't need to lend him money again! It would be unfair to say anymore so I won't. I thought I was poor at money management - obviously I'm in a minor league.

Dave, judging by some of the replies to your posts from others, you appear to unintentionally upsetting a few regulars - myself excluded - I'm generally thick-skinned. This may sound offensive but I suggest you read more thoroughly. I do find some posts here & elsewhere to be pretty obscure or need to be read several times to understand them & maybe some find mine the same of course!

If people buy Hi Fi equipment as an end in itself with music being incidental - it's harmless enough, it increases the number of folk buying therefore creating demand & stabilises prices. I'm not going to complain about that - just don't expect much empathy from music fans! If I bought an expensive musical instrument but never bothered to learn to play it even badly, I'd expect no less than amusement to derision from others & would deserve the latter.

Busb

I totally agree that many 'arguments' on here are the results of miss-understandings, some posts are poorly written and some simply taken the wrong way, sometimes willfully so.

Perhaps I read too much into things but your quote-

"There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not."

-implies, to me at least, that those choosing to use better quality equipment are somehow misguided, we don't apparantly enjoy the music any more so why are we bothering? Reading that line again, in isolation, I guess I could be wrong but to me the whole tone of your posts tends to convey that message.

Your comment about musical instruments just reinforces that view, can you not accept that someone, who loves music but has no real musical ability himself, may simply want to own a beautiful musical instrument as an 'object', a piece of art if you like, in it's own right?

As such a person, I can see that as being a perfectly natural thing, you clearly do not which is fine, but why the need to disparage such a person's interests through a 'lack of empathy'?

Whether it is musical instruments, or hi-fi equipment it is this lack of respect, on a public forum, for another persons interests that i don't understant and, in large part, what my original post was all about.

 

[The_Lhc]

Perhaps I read too much into things but your quote-

"There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not."

-implies, to me at least, that those choosing to use better quality equipment are somehow misguided, we don't apparantly enjoy the music any more so why are we bothering? Reading that line again, in isolation, I guess I could be wrong but to me the whole tone of your posts tends to convey that message.

In isolation I certainly don't get that message, it simply appears to say that there's more people listen on "poor" equipment than there are those of us that don't. That seems pretty obvious when you look at the sales figures. It doesn't appear to suggest that either group are in the wrong for their choice of listening equipment.

Your comment about musical instruments just reinforces that view, can you not accept that someone, who loves music but has no real musical ability himself, may simply want to own a beautiful musical instrument as an 'object', a piece of art if you like, in it's own right?

I can understand that, I bought a BMX a few years back, I almost never ride it, I bought it because I've always loved the design of them, I'd be quite happy to have a large barn with dozens of them hanging from the rafters like artworks (if I had daft amounts of money of course), it's a similar sort of thing. In a simliar vein I've bought billiard cues in the past that I've never used, they sit in the rack looking nice (I DO play though, just not with those cues - wrong sort of game).

 

[John Duncan]

I can understand that, I bought a BMX a few years back, I almost never ride it, I bought it because I've always loved the design of them, I'd be quite happy to have a large barn with dozens of them hanging from the rafters like artworks (if I had daft amounts of money of course)

Already been done (click for bigger)



(Cold Dark Matter: An Exploded View - Cornelia Parker)

 

[The_Lhc]

Well, it's not quite what I had in mind...

 

[matt49]

Perhaps I read too much into things but your quote-

"There are a lot more music lovers enjoying music on cheapo earphones - do they like music less than us who are vastly outnumbered by them? I think not."

-implies, to me at least, that those choosing to use better quality equipment are somehow misguided, we don't apparantly enjoy the music any more so why are we bothering? Reading that line again, in isolation, I guess I could be wrong but to me the whole tone of your posts tends to convey that message.

In isolation I certainly don't get that message, it simply appears to say that there's more people listen on "poor" equipment than there are those of us that don't. That seems pretty obvious when you look at the sales figures. It doesn't appear to suggest that either group are in the wrong for their choice of listening equipment.

I think the misunderstanding of the passage in bold arises from a slippage between "enjoy" and "like". The first statement concerning "cheapo headphones" is, as Lhc says, unexceptionable. The second statement is also fine by me, so long as the verb "like" isn't confused with the verb "enjoy" in the first statement. In other words, I take Busb to be saying not that music is just as enjoyable through cheapo headphones as through better ones, but that people who use cheapo headphones may have an equally strong preference ("like") for music in general as people who use expensive kit. This doesn't of course exclude the possibility that better quality kit provides more enjoyment.

Matt

 

[davedotco]

I can understand that, I bought a BMX a few years back, I almost never ride it, I bought it because I've always loved the design of them, I'd be quite happy to have a large barn with dozens of them hanging from the rafters like artworks (if I had daft amounts of money of course)

Already been done (click for bigger)



(Cold Dark Matter: An Exploded View - Cornelia Parker)

How did she do that, I thought dark matter was supposed to be invisible?

Don't like much modern art as a recent visit to the Tate Modern confirmed, but that looks wonderful.

Now if I can just get her to do something similar, but with exploding guitars..... :dance: