Loudness wars

[Covenanter]

There are any number of threads asking whether the Ok-Kokey 500 or whatever will deliver enough power.

To be contentious I think this is largely bulls**t. When I ramped my previous PM6004 up a bit my neighbour (long gone thank God) said it shook a mirror off her wall (she had a broken mirror to prove her point). If I put my current amp (which some posters imply can't power my speakers) at 11 o'clock the floor shakes!

As I post I'm listening to ABBA Gold at 9:30 on the volume control and it's at the limit of how loud I can listen.

Is this a generational thing? My hearing is much reduced due to age but either younger listeners are conditioned to listened at much higher volumes or they are even more deaf than me (maybe due to listening to over-loud music).

Discuss!

Chris

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

 

[Overdose]

If the amp is able to power the speakers to the volume that is required without clipping or audibly distorting, then it's powerful enough.

Period.

 

[Craig M.]

When I ramped my previous PM6004 up a bit my neighbour (long gone thank God) said it shook a mirror off her wall (she had a broken mirror to prove her point).

I doubt very much that your music broke her mirror, more likely she was sick of hearing it and thought a bit of embellishment with an old broken mirror would help.

I've read plenty of times that the ear/brain uses distortion to judge how loud something is, the more distortion the louder it seems. I sometimes crank it up during the day but most of my listening is done at lower volumes, consideration for others rules the roost most of the time. I'd much rather have more power than less though, well recorded music with strong dynamic peaks can demand a suprising amount of power from an amp.

 

[matt49]

For most dynamic speakers in normal-sized rooms, it doesn't matter too much. But some speakers do require large amounts of grunt because of their steep impedance curve. My Martin Logans dip to 0.5 Ohms at 20kHz (the solid line in the graph below).

To drive them properly you need big amplification. But it's worth it because ESLs, when driven properly, distort so much less than dynamic speakers.

In short: in some circumstances, with some speakers, to play music at satisfying volumes does require lots of power.

Matt

 

[Jota180]

Loud doesn't mean clean. Your amp may be clipping at certain points in the music when you've got it turned up.

Clipping is distortion and you definitely don't want that in hif systems and speaker drivers don't like clipping either as it can damage them.

The idea of having an amp with more power is that it doesn't clip when it's turned up and has enough power to ensure it doesn't happen with the speakers it's paired with.

 

[Rethep]

I have a valve-amp which sounds very clean and exciting. To really feel what i used to feel, some 25 years ago, i should crank it up. But even then it does not sound distorted. It has enough power, but my way of listening, to cleaner sound, has changed. More quality, less quantity. My speakers are impedance-friendly too, so no problems here!

 

[Covenanter]

For most dynamic speakers in normal-sized rooms, it doesn't matter too much. But some speakers do require large amounts of grunt because of their steep impedance curve. My Martin Logans dip to 0.5 Ohms at 20kHz (the solid line in the graph below).

To drive them properly you need big amplification. But it's worth it because ESLs, when driven properly, distort so much less than dynamic speakers.

In short: in some circumstances, with some speakers, to play music at satisfying volumes does require lots of power.

Matt

Not clear what point your are making Matt! You can't hear 20kHz so what does it matter what the impedance is there?

Chris

 

[matt49]

Not clear what point your are making Matt! You can't hear 20kHz so what does it matter what the impedance is there?

Chris

ESL speakers are in effect capacitors, whereas electrodynamic speakers are resistors, so they make different demands of amplification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_loudspeaker

http://www.janszenloudspeaker.com/answer1nonlinearities.htm

http://www.onethingaudio.webspace.virginmedia.com/OTA/QUA/9152-OTA-QUA-GEN-SAN.htm

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/52-esl-amp-white-paper

 

[davedotco]

Power in hi-fi systems is a funny thing, you mostly use far less than you think and occasionally far more than you would imagine.

Firstly it is important to realise that percieved loudness, power delivery and volume control settings are very different and often only loosely related. Most of this has been posted before but anyway......

The ear is a horn, working in reverse to a horn in a speaker. As the air is compressed as the horn narrows the compression becomes non linear and produces harmonic distortion, this is easily measureable. The ear percieves this as loudness, that is how the brain interprets it, if the signal entering the ear already has similar distortion the ear/brain percieves this as loud even though it measures at a quite modest level. Ie a high distortion device, a guitar amp/combo for example sounds louder than a low distortion device such as a decent hi-fi system at the same measured level.

The volume control on amplifiers is set by the designer who is usually told by the marketing guys to "make it go loud very quickly". With normal listing levels typically in the 9-10 o'clock region this impresses the punters who naturally think the amp is very powerful, "if it is that loud at 10 o'clock, think how loud it will go if I really turn it up". The fact that the amplifier is already starting to clip around 11 o'clock and is producing dangerous levels of distortion at anything past 12 o'clock only becomes apparent later.

Speaker sensitivity is more important than output power if your aim is to play quite loud, so is the ease with which your amplifier handles the sometimes complex, shifting impedance curve of your chosen speaker.

Essentially a decent modern 50 watt amplifier with easy to drive, reasonably sensitive speakers playing 'normal' music at sensible levels will be amply powerful.

On the other hand, a nominal 50 watter, with smallish power supply being asked to drive more difficult, low impedance speakers with heavily compressed, bass heavy music, maybe with a little bass boost at a bit louder than normal levels, will be hopelessly under powered. An extreme example, not these days.

Remember, power delivery is exponentiai, twice as loud requires 10 times the power, adding, say, 6dB of bass boost requires the amplifier to deliver almost 4 times the power than when set flat.

There are other factors too but just those above explain how ample power in one system, for one person may be hopelessly inadequate for someone else.

 

[The_Lhc]

For most dynamic speakers in normal-sized rooms, it doesn't matter too much. But some speakers do require large amounts of grunt because of their steep impedance curve. My Martin Logans dip to 0.5 Ohms at 20kHz (the solid line in the graph below).

To drive them properly you need big amplification. But it's worth it because ESLs, when driven properly, distort so much less than dynamic speakers.

In short: in some circumstances, with some speakers, to play music at satisfying volumes does require lots of power.

Matt

Not clear what point your are making Matt! You can't hear 20kHz so what does it matter what the impedance is there?

Chris

You don't know he can't hear 20kHz, some people can and it's certainly within the limits of human hearing for the young. Besides, according to the graph they're already at 1.5Ohms at 10kHz, which he can definitely hear, so the point still stands.

 

[ReValveiT]

"Loudness Wars" is a term used to describe how record companies are fighting it out to have the loudest possible recordings to compete on the radio (remember, louder simply = better to humans). They do this through mastering. By squashing all of the audio up against the 0db brick wall of digital. Of course, all this actually does is kill any and all dynamic range the tune may have had by making quiet sections as loud as the loud sections, which makes the vast majority of modern pop unlistenable on anything even aproching decent HiFi. So I think there's some talking at cross-purposes here... Although, any recent poorly mastered 'music' might be more than enough to p*ss your neighbours off!

 

[ReValveiT]

By the way WHF, I find it hard to believe that the people in charge of this forum haven't tried using an iPad to post here. But if you had, you'd know how utterly infuriating it is and fix it, right?

 

[ID.]

By the way WHF, I find it hard to believe that the people in charge of this forum haven't tried using an iPad to post here. But if you had, you'd know how utterly infuriating it is and fix it, right?

Do you have any idea of the time, effort and money it takes to get a new, complex site to launch with few bugs? If you did you'd be far more understanding about why they have apparently just said, ****** it, and headed off down to the pub for a beverage.

 

[Covenanter]

For most dynamic speakers in normal-sized rooms, it doesn't matter too much. But some speakers do require large amounts of grunt because of their steep impedance curve. My Martin Logans dip to 0.5 Ohms at 20kHz (the solid line in the graph below).

To drive them properly you need big amplification. But it's worth it because ESLs, when driven properly, distort so much less than dynamic speakers.

In short: in some circumstances, with some speakers, to play music at satisfying volumes does require lots of power.

Matt

Not clear what point your are making Matt! You can't hear 20kHz so what does it matter what the impedance is there?

Chris

You don't know he can't hear 20kHz, some people can and it's certainly within the limits of human hearing for the young. Besides, according to the graph they're already at 1.5Ohms at 10kHz, which he can definitely hear, so the point still stands.

I wasn't being antagonistic, just trying to understand the point! I would be very surprised to find an adult who could hear 20kHz although I guess anything is possible. I could hear close to it when a child as my sisters and I could hear the 19kHz oscillator they had in old style tvs. For most music the great bulk of the sound will be below 5kHz and above that there will just be harmonics, which are of course important but will tend to be low in amplitude.

Chris

 

[Overdose]

For most dynamic speakers in normal-sized rooms, it doesn't matter too much. But some speakers do require large amounts of grunt because of their steep impedance curve. My Martin Logans dip to 0.5 Ohms at 20kHz (the solid line in the graph below).

To drive them properly you need big amplification. But it's worth it because ESLs, when driven properly, distort so much less than dynamic speakers.

In short: in some circumstances, with some speakers, to play music at satisfying volumes does require lots of power.

Matt

Not clear what point your are making Matt! You can't hear 20kHz so what does it matter what the impedance is there?

Chris

You don't know he can't hear 20kHz, some people can and it's certainly within the limits of human hearing for the young. Besides, according to the graph they're already at 1.5Ohms at 10kHz, which he can definitely hear, so the point still stands.

What is audibe is moot. The amp still sees the load and will clip just the same with inaudible frequencies as audible ones, so the damage can still occur.

(This was more for the benefit of Covenanter)

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I generally listen to my amps at a fixed postition. 9 o'clock position on an Audiolab and "-40 db" on a Cyrus. I have to turn up fractionally for listening to 320 kbps podcasts.

It was odd that on Monday/Tuesday, when I experienced DSD for the first time, I had to turn up between 10 and 11 (which a forum poster explained is a trait of the methods in most DSD recordings). Later on Tuesday evening I listened to a standard FLAC at 9 o'clock volume and I sensed it was too loud. But as soon as I turned it down a fraction, the music was nearly inaudible to me.

When the old deary next door goes out I sometimes crank up the volume and move further away from the speakers. I think of it as bit of a blow out for the whole system. I also tend to notice that the music is clearer and easier on my ears. I've started to get sensitivity to very high frequencies in the last 12 months.

 

[davedotco]

I generally listen to my amps at a fixed postition. 9 o'clock position on an Audiolab and "-40 db" on a Cyrus. I have to turn up fractionally for listening to 320 kbps podcasts.

It was odd that on Monday/Tuesday, when I experienced DSD for the first time, I had to turn up between 10 and 11 (which a forum poster explained is a trait of the methods in most DSD recordings). Later on Tuesday evening I listened to a standard FLAC at 9 o'clock volume and I sensed it was too loud. But as soon as I turned it down a fraction, the music was nearly inaudible to me.

When the old deary next door goes out I sometimes crank up the volume and move further away from the speakers. I think of it as bit of a blow out for the whole system. I also tend to notice that the music is clearer and easier on my ears. I've started to get sensitivity to very high frequencies in the last 12 months.

As I said earlier, volume controls are no indicator of power.

When you listened to your DSD recordings, were they trough your usual dac?

 

[The_Lhc]

I generally listen to my amps at a fixed postition. 9 o'clock position on an Audiolab and "-40 db" on a Cyrus. I have to turn up fractionally for listening to 320 kbps podcasts.

It was odd that on Monday/Tuesday, when I experienced DSD for the first time, I had to turn up between 10 and 11 (which a forum poster explained is a trait of the methods in most DSD recordings).

Err, no, that isn't quite what I said, I said it was a typical "issue" with hi-res material because it usually has a larger dynamic range (which simply means the difference in volume between the quiet bits and the loud bits is greater, hence the quiet bits seem to be quieter as they haven't been shifted in volume closer to the maximum) but that doesn't stop with DSD, it applies to "normal" 24bit material as well.

It would also apply to CD if the mastering engineers ever bothered to use the dynamic range available in 16bit recordings properly but they very rarely do these days (which is where all the "Loudness War" complaints come from).

 

[Sam_London]

By the way WHF, I find it hard to believe that the people in charge of this forum haven't tried using an iPad to post here. But if you had, you'd know how utterly infuriating it is and fix it, right?

<<this! Many times this!

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I bought a Chord Qute HD to play DSD.

I don't fully understand what's happening in Amarra to get from the DSF DSD64 2.82 MHz file I dragged into the playlist to the 176 KHz PCM going into the DAC. I'm trialling Amarra.

I've had Audirvana Plus for a while. Chord have decent guides on how to set up Audirvana for DSD. So what I hear appears to be straight DSF 2.8 MHz 1 bit DSD64.

They sound identical to me anyway !!

I did notice that 16/44.1 FLAC from the Qute HD analogue out seemed a tad louder than the Audiolab 8200CD 24/96 DAC analogue out to the same amp on the same volume position.

 

[davedotco]

I bought a Chord Qute HD to play DSD.

I don't fully understand what's happening in Amarra to get from the DSF DSD64 2.82 MHz file I dragged into the playlist to the 176 KHz PCM going into the DAC. I'm trialling Amarra.

I've had Audirvana Plus for a while. Chord have decent guides on how to set up Audirvana for DSD. So what I hear appears to be straight DSF 2.8 MHz 1 bit DSD64.

They sound identical to me anyway !!

I did notice that 16/44.1 FLAC from the Qute HD analogue out seemed a tad louder than the Audiolab 8200CD 24/96 DAC analogue out to the same amp on the same volume position.

Different dacs have different output levels, even though they are all supposed to be 2 volts, ie Red Book standard.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I'm having another DSD listen today. Understand what you're saying about the range difference.

I'm not actually listening as loud as before and I appear to be able to pick out the quiet parts much better than the other day.

It is a totally different listening experience. Vocals are pitched just right. Clear and what I can only describe as in front of the musical instruments. I just need to get used to what in the main is acoustic guitar being strummed and plucked more quietly than on most CDs I've heard over many years.

It's certainly neighbour friendly.

 

[davedotco]

I'm having another DSD listen today. Understand what you're saying about the range difference.

I'm not actually listening as loud as before and I appear to be able to pick out the quiet parts much better than the other day.

It is a totally different listening experience. Vocals are pitched just right. Clear and what I can only describe as in front of the musical instruments. I just need to get used to what in the main is acoustic guitar being strummed and plucked more quietly than on most CDs I've heard over many years.

It's certainly neighbour friendly.

This is a trait of better quality, more transparent systems.

Where this improved performance comes from would be an interesting investigation.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I think it's a combination of music specially recorded for DSD playback (Bluecoast Records) and a top DAC in the Qute HD.

I listened to FLAC 16/44.1 afterwards and it sounded more dynamic ... but loud again. It's like my hearing range has become expanded; maybe it is that I'm perceiving the benefit of better playback from audiophile software and a better DAC.

I'm not going to say that DSD is some musical marvel. My inkling is that there's more competence about the manner these field gate array DACs decodes the music and that is more pleasing to my senses.

I've noticed a characteristic of a lot of what I have experienced on DSD. Many songs are one vocal and one guitar. One track I heard had more instruments playing at different volumes. There was ample separation in the instruments for me to enjoy (i.e. the dynamic range was not compressed) but the experience was akin to listening to a properly mastered CD recording, of which there are sadly few in my collection.