Loudness option

[stereoman]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

What system do you have?

Leema Acoustics Xero + Cyrus 8vs + Cyrus CD 6 + Atlas Hyper 2.0

 

[BigH]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

What system do you have?

Leema Acoustics Xero + Cyrus 8vs + Cyrus CD 6 + Atlas Hyper 2.0

Tiny speakers.

 

[TrevC]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

What system do you have?

Leema Acoustics Xero + Cyrus 8vs + Cyrus CD 6 + Atlas Hyper 2.0

Tiny speakers.

Needs a sub. Or a loudness button. :O)

 

[andyjm]

Short and simple: sometimes it can help on bad records. On many metal albums (earlier Metallica) it makes the sound "healthier". However on Air 'La Femme d'Argent' the original sound quality is so good that any change would only decrease that nice balance. (Anyway, 2 days ago I wanted to create a very similar topic, and that great site refused it.)

On wide range hi fi it plays the music as it has been recorded! So Air, whose productions are exemplary! Will sound fab..and not so good produced music will sound accordingly not as good? Having a button to make things sound better? Lol..thats absurd! With good hifi this question never arises! It just plays it as it is!

Just as an aside, I listened to the Air track mentioned above. Frankly it sounded like a rehash of early Kraftwerk with a smattering of Jean Michel Jarre thrown in. Preferred the original Kraftwerk to be honest. Each to his own I guess.

Keeper, you seem to have missed the point that no matter how good your HiFi, the tonal balance you perceive is a function of the level you listen at. Listen to loud music and the bass is thumping away, listen to the same track quietly, and you will perceive the bass to be much quieter than the reduction in volume would imply - the music now sounds light on bass because your ears don't work as well at low volume. Can you explain how your 'wide range' HiFi overcomes this?

 

[keeper of the quays]

Short and simple: sometimes it can help on bad records. On many metal albums (earlier Metallica) it makes the sound "healthier". However on Air 'La Femme d'Argent' the original sound quality is so good that any change would only decrease that nice balance. (Anyway, 2 days ago I wanted to create a very similar topic, and that great site refused it.)

On wide range hi fi it plays the music as it has been recorded! So Air, whose productions are exemplary! Will sound fab..and not so good produced music will sound accordingly not as good? Having a button to make things sound better? Lol..thats absurd! With good hifi this question never arises! It just plays it as it is!

Just as an aside, I listened to the Air track mentioned above.  Frankly it sounded like a rehash of early Kraftwerk with a smattering of Jean Michel Jarre thrown in.  Preferred the original Kraftwerk to be honest. Each to his own I guess.

Keeper, you seem to have missed the point that no matter how good your HiFi, the tonal balance you perceive is a function of the level you listen at.  Listen to loud music and the bass is thumping away, listen to the same track quietly, and you will perceive the bass to be much quieter than the reduction in volume would imply - the music now sounds light on bass because your ears don't work as well at low volume. Can you explain how your 'wide range' HiFi overcomes this?

It doesn't! Rich tapestry of hi fi again..low volume doesn't sound that good..get headphones..theres a average listening volume..above it? With very good speakers? (mine are!) the sound gets bigger and doesn't distort..below average volume? Get headphones or get over yourself...ps my bass doesn't thump away! Lol..thats el cheapo hi fi...i agree kraftwerk are very good..i have a lp of theirs ..good recording! I think if you stick to cheap equipment, you may be happier as your aspirations for hifi should be met..use loudness button or bass and treble full on! Last time I had a bass and treble button! Was a very long time ago...

 

[davedotco]

Given that Fletcher-Munsen has an effect on everything we hear, boosting the bass on recorded music played at low levels sounds absurd to my ears. It's at low levels, I expect to hear a drop off in bass at these levels, when I don't, because it has been 'boosted' it just sounds hopelessly wrong. YMMV.

To my mind there are just 3 things that speakers need to sound good at low levels;

Clarity, Clarity, Clarity.

Other opinions are available...*unknw*

 

[keeper of the quays]

Given that Fletcher-Munsen has an effect on everything we hear, boosting the bass on recorded music played at low levels sounds absurd to my ears. It's at low levels, I expect to hear a drop off in bass at these levels, when I don't, because it has been 'boosted' it just sounds hopelessly wrong. YMMV.

To my mind there are just 3 things that speakers need to sound good at low levels;

Clarity, Clarity, Clarity.

Other opinions are available...*unknw*

Fletcher Munsen? Never heard? Classical? Heavy metal? Sounds more sk8ter rock! I'll you tube them....

 

[Electro]

Given that Fletcher-Munsen has an effect on everything we hear, boosting the bass on recorded music played at low levels sounds absurd to my ears. It's at low levels, I expect to hear a drop off in bass at these levels, when I don't, because it has been 'boosted' it just sounds hopelessly wrong. YMMV.

To my mind there are just 3 things that speakers need to sound good at low levels;

Clarity, Clarity, Clarity.

Other opinions are available...*unknw*

I think you've nailed it *good* .

My system sound exactly the same at all volume levels just louder or quieter, the imaging, bass, mid, and high frequencies remain exactly the same. *i-m_so_happy*

 

[plastic penguin]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

Me neither. I think entry-level Marantzes have them, although I couldn't swear to it.

back in the 80s my Pioneer had a 'Loudness' switch. That brought out the bass, midrange and treble at low volumes. Once you went over a certain volume it automatically cancelled itself.

 

[TrevC]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

Me neither. I think entry-level Marantzes have them, although I couldn't swear to it.

back in the 80s my Pioneer had a 'Loudness' switch. That brought out the bass, midrange and treble at low volumes. Once you went over a certain volume it automatically cancelled itself.

Just the bass and the treble. It's a tap on the volume control at 1/3 rotation with a series capacitor and resistor added to ground and another capacitor to the signal end to lift the higher frequencies.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

Me neither. I think entry-level Marantzes have them, although I couldn't swear to it.

back in the 80s my Pioneer had a 'Loudness' switch. That brought out the bass, midrange and treble at low volumes. Once you went over a certain volume it automatically cancelled itself.

Just the bass and the treble. It's a tap on the volume control at 1/3 rotation with a series capacitor and resistor added to ground and another capacitor to the signal end to lift the higher frequencies. 

you seem to know stuff trev...know much about hand winding a step up transformer?

 

[TrevC]

Given that Fletcher-Munsen has an effect on everything we hear, boosting the bass on recorded music played at low levels sounds absurd to my ears. It's at low levels, I expect to hear a drop off in bass at these levels, when I don't, because it has been 'boosted' it just sounds hopelessly wrong. YMMV.

To my mind there are just 3 things that speakers need to sound good at low levels;

Clarity, Clarity, Clarity.

Other opinions are available...*unknw*

I think you've nailed it *good* .

My system sound exactly the same at all volume levels just louder or quieter, the imaging, bass, mid, and high frequencies remain exactly the same. *i-m_so_happy*

I don't feel the need to boost the bass at low volume since I connected my antimode amd sub.

 

[TrevC]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

Me neither. I think entry-level Marantzes have them, although I couldn't swear to it.

back in the 80s my Pioneer had a 'Loudness' switch. That brought out the bass, midrange and treble at low volumes. Once you went over a certain volume it automatically cancelled itself.

Just the bass and the treble. It's a tap on the volume control at 1/3 rotation with a series capacitor and resistor added to ground and another capacitor to the signal end to lift the higher frequencies.

you seem to know stuff trev...know much about hand winding a step up transformer?

Sounds like a labourious job. :O)

 

[keeper of the quays]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

Me neither. I think entry-level Marantzes have them, although I couldn't swear to it.

back in the 80s my Pioneer had a 'Loudness' switch. That brought out the bass, midrange and treble at low volumes. Once you went over a certain volume it automatically cancelled itself.

Just the bass and the treble. It's a tap on the volume control at 1/3 rotation with a series capacitor and resistor added to ground and another capacitor to the signal end to lift the higher frequencies. 

you seem to know stuff trev...know much about hand winding a step up transformer?

Sounds like a labourious job. :O)

is it something you think you could do?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I have to say like most things hifi its a suck it and see thing.

Boost/loudness buttons have there uses.

I have one on the Yamaha ax-620.

Bass light recordings being one of them. It works really well. They are also nice to have if you like to tinker with your sound. And can be used in the same way as source direct, bypass buttons.

I.e turn the bass tone to minimum(if you have them) and use the boost button see what you get.

Like tone controls they have their uses.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have to say like most things hifi its a suck it and see thing.

Exactly.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10205966589835187]

As already pointed out, try educating yourself by looking up the equal loudness curve. And yes there is a standard, it's defined by ISO 226:2003.

I have yet to see somthing telling me that companies implement this standard in their loudness control, which would be useless any way. The amplifier not having any way to know the sensitivity of the speakers nor their colorations or even how they react with the room, what room modes you do have etc. Which brings us back to loudness is arbitrary boosting of some frequencies by an approximate amount of Db's that may or may not be variable with volume and in no relation of any kind with how much and how the system need to be compensated.

If we were talking about things like Dynamic EQ by audyssey, at least, we would have a basic of implementing a loudness curve in real life, the speakers have been measured in room by the receiver/processor and I do respect this technology but not loudness on a 300$ amplifier to compensate for something that has not been measured in room and is therefore approximate. And we don't even have a way to make sure the intention was to apply a real correction or to implement a house curve.

McIntosh for exemple have created a product called MEN220 Room Correction System, which use the Room Perfect technology by Lyngdorf to create correction based on real world measurement of your sound system using a prefssional microphone and a 5000USD$ sound processor to compensate for the room, volume, etc. This I respect.

Now if somebody wants to tell themself that approximate loudness compensation done by a 12$ circuit in a 300$ amplifier is HIFI, go ahead. I have said all I'm gonna say in the matter.

 

[ChrisIRL]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

Me neither. I think entry-level Marantzes have them, although I couldn't swear to it.

back in the 80s my Pioneer had a 'Loudness' switch. That brought out the bass, midrange and treble at low volumes. Once you went over a certain volume it automatically cancelled itself.

Naim Unitiqute 2 has exactly this feature, a loudness setting that reduces with increased volume. I rarely use it except to flesh out poor recordings which it does nicely. The effect is subtle at moderate volume, it's very well done and doesn't seem to impact overall sound quality. Nice to occasionally enable it with electronic music too, makes this type of music very punchy.

 

[stereoman]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

So what is acceptable under this audiophile signal purity philosopy? Room treatment, yes; DSP to account for the room, no?

Not really. In fact all the things connected to room treatment - unless it is a test chamber for new products perhaps - are absolutely not necessary alongside toeing in the speakers etc. You cannot improve bad or low quality engineering with anything but to buy a new better stuff. Personally I get it like this. Good quality and well engineered stuff will be always playing good no matter what. Since one is looking to for a perfect flat response with scale you do not need to loudness your system. If anyone does it then they divert from the proper hi fi idea. What is a good sounding system or the acceptable signal purity ? The sound that does not ask for bass / treble boost. Unless you crave for really low frequency - then go for the sub. If you crank up the bass / treble or put it a notch or two down - it is compensating for weaknesses in your system. Again , good reproduction will try to make a signal path as short as possible. This is what I think.

 

[andyjm]

As already pointed out, try educating yourself by looking up the equal loudness curve. And yes there is a standard, it's defined by ISO 226:2003.

I have yet to see somthing telling me that companies implement this standard in their loudness control, which would be useless any way. The amplifier not having any way to know the sensitivity of the speakers nor their colorations or even how they react with the room, what room modes you do have etc. Which brings us back to loudness is arbitrary boosting of some frequencies by an approximate amount of Db's that may or may not be variable with volume and in no relation of any kind with how much and how the system need to be compensated.

If we were talking about things like Dynamic EQ by audyssey, at least, we would have a basic of implementing a loudness curve in real life, the speakers have been measured in room by the receiver/processor and I do respect this technology but not loudness on a 300$ amplifier to compensate for something that has not been measured in room and is therefore approximate. And we don't even have a way to make sure the intention was to apply a real correction or to implement a house curve.

McIntosh for exemple have created a product called MEN220 Room Correction System, which use the Room Perfect technology by Lyngdorf to create correction based on real world measurement of your sound system using a prefssional microphone and a 5000USD$ sound processor to compensate for the room, volume, etc. This I respect.

Now if somebody wants to tell themself that approximate loudness compensation done by a 12$ circuit in a 300$ amplifier is HIFI, go ahead. I have said all I'm gonna say in the matter.

My Wife tells me I am a 'know it all', but I have to admit, one of the guilty pleasures I get as an ex engineer is pointing out when a self-appointed expert on a HiFi forum is talking out the hole in his hat.

To slip off topic slightly for a moment, for those of you using vinyl, the implementation of the RIAA equalisation curve filter in your amp is arguably the most important determinant of the tonal balance of your system. It compensates for the pre-mangling of the signal required prior to cutting the disc to compensate for the shortcomings of vinyl as a recording medium.

This crucial aspect of the amp is usually implemented as a couple of RC filters, at a total cost less than £2 per channel - and that is if you use fancy components. A little googling of 'RIAA equalistaion circuit' will give you the idea (the filter is often embedded in a gain stage, so some of the circuits on the web show much more than just the filter).

Now Nicolas seems to have gone off on a tanget, 'loudness' has nothing to do with room correction, speaker performance or sound processors. It is simply a technique to restore the tonal balance of the signal at low volume because your ears don't work very well on quiet music. My point about the RIAA curve above is that if the critical RIAA filter can be implemented for a couple of quid, surely a decent loudness circuit can't be that expensive. The truth is that a loudness circuit can be implemented for far less than Nicolas' $12 hurdle.

A more interesting point is whether a system should or should not try to maintain the perceived tonal balance at differing listening levels - correcting for the poor performance of human hearing. If the director wanted the bass guitar to sound twice as loud as the lead guitar when he mixed it, is it right or wrong to have the bass guitar sound half as loud as the lead guitar when it is played back at a low level. What actually is 'purity' in this case? The point could be argued a number of ways.

My own view is that a loudness button is a useful facility, but make it switchable so that listeners can choose.

I have said all I'm gonna say in the matter.......

 

[keeper of the quays]

As already pointed out, try educating yourself by looking up the equal loudness curve. And yes there is a standard, it's defined by ISO 226:2003.

I have yet to see somthing telling me that companies implement this standard in their loudness control, which would be useless any way. The amplifier not having any way to know the sensitivity of the speakers nor their colorations or even how they react with the room, what room modes  you do have etc. Which brings us back to loudness is arbitrary boosting of some frequencies by an approximate amount of Db's that may or may not be variable with volume and in no relation of any kind with how much and how the system need to be compensated. 

If we were talking about things like Dynamic EQ by audyssey, at least, we would have a basic of implementing a loudness curve in real life, the speakers have been measured in room by the receiver/processor and I do respect this technology but not loudness on a 300$ amplifier to compensate for something that has not been measured in room and is therefore approximate. And we don't even have a way to make sure the intention was to apply a real correction or to implement a house curve.

McIntosh for exemple have created a product called MEN220 Room Correction System, which use the Room Perfect technology by Lyngdorf to create correction based on real world measurement of your sound system using a prefssional microphone and a 5000USD$ sound processor to compensate for the room, volume, etc. This I respect.

Now if somebody wants to tell themself that approximate loudness compensation done by a 12$ circuit in a 300$ amplifier is HIFI, go ahead. I have said all I'm gonna say in the matter.

My Wife tells me I am a 'know it all', but I have to admit, one of the guilty pleasures I get as an ex engineer is pointing out when a self-appointed expert on a HiFi forum is talking out the hole in his hat.

To slip off topic slightly for a moment, for those of you using vinyl, the implementation of the RIAA equalisation curve filter in your amp is arguably the most important determinant of the tonal balance of your system.  It compensates for the pre-mangling  of the signal required prior to cutting the disc to compensate for the shortcomings of vinyl as a recording medium.  

This crucial aspect of the amp is usually implemented as a couple of RC filters, at a total cost less than £2 per channel - and that is if you use fancy components.  A little googling of 'RIAA equalistaion circuit' will give you the idea (the filter is often embedded in a gain stage, so some of the circuits on the web show much more than just the filter).

Now Nicolas seems to have gone off on a tanget, 'loudness' has nothing to do with room correction, speaker performance or sound processors.  It is simply a technique to restore the tonal balance of the signal at low volume because your ears don't work very well on quiet music. My point about the RIAA curve above is that if the critical RIAA filter can be implemented for a couple of quid, surely a decent loudness circuit can't be that expensive.  The truth is that a loudness circuit can be implemented for far less than Nicolas' $12 hurdle.

A more interesting point is whether a system should or should not try to maintain the perceived tonal balance at differing listening levels - correcting for the poor performance of human hearing.  If the director wanted the bass guitar to sound twice as loud as the lead guitar when he mixed it, is it right or wrong to have the bass guitar sound half as loud as the lead guitar when it is played back at a low level.  What actually is 'purity' in this case?  The point could be argued a number of ways. 

My own view is that a loudness button is a useful facility, but make it switchable so that listeners can choose.    

I have said all I'm gonna say in the matter.......

 

today is one of those days that I'm grateful for my 78 player! No filters or curves or audiophile jibber jabber! Just scratchy sounds.. Ps I hope you agreed with your wife and promised never to do it again! Hehehe

 

[pauln]

My Wife tells me I am a 'know it all', but I have to admit, one of the guilty pleasures I get as an ex engineer is pointing out when a self-appointed expert on a HiFi forum is talking out the hole in his hat.

As an engineer myself, I love it when you do that but can't help feeling most of the self appointed experts on here put their fingers in their ears and stamp their feet. To them, in their ignorance of things scientific, hifi is a black art that defies the laws of physics. That's how they like it so that's how it will be.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Everyone's an engineer..... :-D

 

[MajorFubar]

...can't help feeling most of the self appointed experts on here put their fingers in their ears and stamp their feet. To them, in their ignorance of things scientific, hifi is a black art that defies the laws of physics. That's how they like it so that's how it will be.

Took me a while to fathom that out though. And I'm still amazed. In fact it seems some of them deliberately go out of their way not to arm themselves with the facts in case doing so contradicts their (mis)understanding of something that they want to continue misunderstanding. I haven't come across that nearly as much in any of my other hobbies. People are usually happy to learn more about something from technical experts or just from someone with more first-hand experience.

 

[pauln]

Everyone's an engineer..... :-D

Only if you have the right letters after your name.