Loudness option

[stereoman]

Hello everyone,

can anyone explain please why so many "prominent" amp producers still use the "Loudness" option. I do not know why but that always sounds and looks to me like an additional completely unprofessional thing, It's true that Hi End serious producers do not include this option and I also think it is absolutely unnecessary. Personaly I am not in favour of it, but I have noticed that even some quite expensive amps can possess this mode - for example a good new sounding "Pioneer A 50 DA". I think the boosting sound in this way is completely outfashioned and with a pair of good speakers it will be also not useful as they can easily reproduce low frequency sound without boosting sound at night listening sessions.

Regards to all.

 

[BigH]

Can't think of many amps with a loudness button, in fact I have read complaints about them disappearing. They can used when listening at low volume to increase the bass mostly and the treble to a lesser extent.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10205966589835187]

Because their customers want's it. I don't know the image of pioneer where you are but here in Canada, the usual Pioneer buyers will go for a lot of bass, a lot of power and a lot of coloration and those characteristics will make Pioneer better than other brands in their mind.

I don't know of any "real hifi" companies with loudness options. The likes of Moon, Classé, Mcintosh, Marantz, Naim, etc., but I could be mistaken.

McIntosh do still build variable number of bands equalizer on their products and experience led me to understand that they do because their customers want it but they have bypass switch. Same for Marantz who provide either Bass/Treble or Bass/Mid/Treble control with Pure Direct function to get around this annoying circuitry.

You may have guessed it, I for myself don't care at all for loudness.

Nic

 

[TrevC]

Hello everyone,

can anyone explain please why so many "prominent" amp producers still use the "Loudness" option. I do not know why but that always sounds and looks to me like an additional completely unprofessional thing, It's true that Hi End serious producers do not include this option and I also think it is absolutely unnecessary. Personaly I am not in favour of it, but I have noticed that even some quite expensive amps can possess this mode - for example a good new sounding "Pioneer A 50 DA". I think the boosting sound in this way is completely outfashioned and with a pair of good speakers it will be also not useful as they can easily reproduce low frequency sound without boosting sound at night listening sessions.

Regards to all.

It's compensation for our hearing, which becomes less sensitive at low and high frequencies at low volume. There's nothing wrong with having loudness on if you prefer the sound, it doesn't distort anything. Everything you listen to has been equalized at some point.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

When you listen to music to low volume, your perception of sound is biased. You will perceive medium frequencies very well, but your perception of the low and high frequencies is not that good. So the ideal flat curve of reproduction can't be listened by you. For compensating this problem, some hifi manufacturers inserted a function that allowed to compensate the bass and high frequencies at low volume. Some in an automatic manner, some with specific controls that you could activate.

The reason why less and less do it are numerous :
- a broad majority of the hifi enthousiasts are not caring about this anymore, or simply don't know what this thing is good for.
- it's against many esotherical rules that are common today (less components in the signal path is better / equalisation is bad for the sound / and other BS hoaxes that are on the internet)
- It's something you must design and you need more component. This adds fees to an already costly amp.

 

[TrevC]

When you listen to music to low volume, your perception of sound is biased. You will perceive medium frequencies very well, but your perception of the low and high frequencies is not that good. So the ideal flat curve of reproduction can't be listened by you. For compensating this problem, some hifi manufacturers inserted a function that allowed to compensate the bass and high frequencies at low volume. Some in an automatic manner, some with specific controls that you could activate.

The reason why less and less do it are numerous :- a broad majority of the hifi enthousiasts are not caring about this anymore, or simply don't know what this thing is good for.- it's against many esotherical rules that are common today (less components in the signal path is better / equalisation is bad for the sound / and other BS hoaxes that are on the internet)- It's something you must design and you need more component. This adds fees to an already costly amp.

Like the budget Yamahas?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10205966589835187]

It's compensation for our hearing, which becomes less sensitive at low and high frequencies at low volume. There's nothing wrong with having loudness on if you prefer the sound, it doesn't distort anything. Everything you listen to has been equalized at some point.

There is something wrong with loudness if you want to hear the music the way intended by the artist/producer. If you want your amplifier to be part of the creative process than you turn the loudness on. If you want yourself to become part of the creative process than you create your own equalizer setting.

Loudness does distort sound just like any other audio process at any stage of the sound reproduction chain, being volume control, equalization, pre-amplification and even source selection. Unlike volume control induced distortion though, the distortion induced by loudness is unnecessary if you want your music to be as pure and as hifi as it can.

 

[andyjm]

It's compensation for our hearing, which becomes less sensitive at low and high frequencies at low volume. There's nothing wrong with having loudness on if you prefer the sound, it doesn't distort anything. Everything you listen to has been equalized at some point.

There is something wrong with loudness if you want to hear the music the way intended by the artist/producer. If you want your amplifier to be part of the creative process than you turn the loudness on. If you want yourself to become part of the creative process than you create your own equalizer setting.

Loudness does distort sound just like any other audio process at any stage of the sound reproduction chain, being volume control, equalization, pre-amplification and even source selection. Unlike volume control induced distortion though, the distortion induced by loudness is unnecessary if you want your music to be as pure and as hifi as it can.

Nicolas,

You would be correct if you listened to the music at the same level as the producer heard it when it was mixed. If however you listened to the music at a quieter level, then as explained by TrevC, you would need to boost the lower and higher frequencies for you to hear the same tonal balance as the producer intended. Nothing to do with purity, everything to do with limitations in the way your ears work.

Google 'equal loudness curve' for an explanation of the phenomenon.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10205966589835187]

Nicolas

You would be correct if you listened to the music at the same level as the producer heard it when it was mixed. If however you listened to the music at a quieter level, then as explained by TrevC, you would need to boost the lower and higher frequencies for you to hear the same tonal balance as the producer intended. Nothing to do with purity, everything to do with limitations in the way your ears work.

Google 'equal loudness curve' for an explanation of the phenomenon.

Ok, at what frequency? With what Q factor? How many Db's? Is there a standard among companies who build amplifier with loudness that makes it really usefull? Are the really really high end companies that produce 40,000$ amplifier that don't have loudness control preventing us from hearing good quality music?

No, loudness has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with gratification. The lower end products have it so it will prevent consumer to hear the weaknesses in their product.

If one wants to listen to music while doing something else, than loudness MAY be good. If one wants to listen to background music while eating with a couple of friends, than loudness MAY be good. But if you spend 10K$ on a stereo gear and want to listen to hifi then commit to it, Leave your magazine on the side, stop cleaning your house, sit down, turn off the loudness and pump up the volume.

 

[MajorFubar]

No, loudness has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with gratification. The lower end products have it so it will prevent consumer to hear the weaknesses in their product.

For a retailer to be coming out with such ill-informed garbage is a bit scary. I thought you guys behind the counter knew at least as much as us. As already pointed out, try educating yourself by looking up the equal loudness curve. And yes there is a standard, it's defined by ISO 226:2003.

 

[MajorFubar]

serious producers do not include this option and I also think it is absolutely unnecessary

A couple of days ago we had a chap on here wanting speakers which still sounded great at low volume levels without the sound losing the bite and punch. I told him what he really needed wasn't new speakers but an amp with a loudness button. What you find superfluous and 'absolutely unnecessary' can be just the feature another person needs. The answer really is don't be so myopic.

 

[lindsayt]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

Interesting that 30 hz only becomes audible above 60 dbs.

And that 3 khz is audible at -6dbs???!! How does that work?

 

[MajorFubar]

...And that 3 khz is audible at -6dbs???!! How does that work?

Hi Lindsay, what it's saying is our hearing is at its most sensitive in the 2-5kHz range and to experience perceived 'flatness' of frequency response even at the so called threshold of human hearing (0dB) you would need to cut those frequencies by about 6dB.

It's also one of the reasons why manufacturers have to be very careful when making speaker xovers in that frequency range (which as I'm sure you are very much aware is commonly where tweeters start). We're already hyper sensitive in that range compared to other frequencies as an average, and any harshness or over-emphasis in that range can make the speakers sound very shrill. It's also the same range which often gets exaccerbated by sound reflections from glass-inlaid picture frames, windows, consevatory doors, tiled floors, and so on, many or all of which might be encountered in a home.

 

[stereoman]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

 

[matthewpiano]

I don't see what the issue is.

If you like the help that loudness brings at low volumes switch it on, if you don't like it then leave it switched off. Furthermore, amps that have loudness and other tone controls also have 'Pure Direct' or similar, enabling you to take the controls completely out of circuit.

 

[ID.]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

Really? You seem to have misunderstood the purpose of it, as does most of the music listening public. Unfortunately it gets used to goose the bass and treble and give the sound more impact at higher volumes, but that isn't what it's for at all. If people want to use it like that and enjoy it then there's not much that can be done, but the purpose is to compensate for imbalances in how the human ear perceives various frequencies at lower volumes. This lack of sensitivity to certain frequencies at lower volumes means that that give a perception of flatness at lower volumes a loudness curve needs to be applied. Personally I always listened with tone defeat option on and could never be bothered constantly fiddling with the tone controls depending on the volume I listen at, but there are times when listening at low volumes late at night for example where a loudness button works very well. In these situations it's not really an issue of taste, unless one claims that listening without it at low volumes is an issue of taste. I take it you like your music to have rolled sucked out bass and rolled off treble at low volumes

If we're getting all worked up about signal purity and having as little impact on the original signal as possible I suspect that the speakers and room are all doing as much or more to mess this up, and I'd be more concerned with addressing these than a feature useful for some for low level listening. Then again, compensating for the room would also be messing with the signal...now I'm confused. So what is acceptable under this audiophile signal purity philosopy? Room treatment, yes; DSP to account for the room, no?

 

[andyjm]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

Interesting that 30 hz only becomes audible above 60 dbs.

And that 3 khz is audible at -6dbs???!! How does that work?

0dBs is defined as a pressure (20 micro pascals) that approximates the threshold of hearing - I guess the key word here is "approximates". Looking at the graph, 0dBs is pretty close to the hearing threshold at 1KHz, which is a common reference frequency.

 

[BigH]

Thanks. I understand where all of you come from but as a music fan I have listened thousands of hours to music at nights and never felt the loudness option was lacking. In fact I had it once in an amp and never ever used it as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle. The reason some people might like it , is in fact the matter of taste but it's definitely not a taste of the audiophile purity signal. I can also agree that some amps can have this option to mask their sound weaknesses although it is spotted in some expensive stuff too - as mentioned - great sounding Pioneer A 70 DA for example. Accuphase had it as well in older models but got rid of it finally.

What system do you have?

 

[TrevC]

It's compensation for our hearing, which becomes less sensitive at low and high frequencies at low volume. There's nothing wrong with having loudness on if you prefer the sound, it doesn't distort anything. Everything you listen to has been equalized at some point.

There is something wrong with loudness if you want to hear the music the way intended by the artist/producer. If you want your amplifier to be part of the creative process than you turn the loudness on. If you want yourself to become part of the creative process than you create your own equalizer setting.

Loudness does distort sound just like any other audio process at any stage of the sound reproduction chain, being volume control, equalization, pre-amplification and even source selection. Unlike volume control induced distortion though, the distortion induced by loudness is unnecessary if you want your music to be as pure and as hifi as it can.

All it does is equalize the sound so it sounds similar to how it would sound if it wasn't in the background. It doesn't distort anything, it is passive.

 

[kukulec]

Short and simple: sometimes it can help on bad records. On many metal albums (earlier Metallica) it makes the sound "healthier". However on Air 'La Femme d'Argent' the original sound quality is so good that any change would only decrease that nice balance. (Anyway, 2 days ago I wanted to create a very similar topic, and that great site refused it.)

 

[MajorFubar]

as it is simply a button for all the bass and treble knobs at the full throttle.

It's not. For a start, on all the amps I've ever owned with a loudness button, the amount of gain was determined by the position of the volume control. Maximum gain was appled with the volume turned to minimum and generally by the time you reached 12 o'clock there was little (if any) gain.

Secondly, the loudness button usually boosted different centre frequencies and different Qs than the bass and treble control, so it was never a case of it being a button which just 'whacked the bass and treble up full throttle'.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Short and simple: sometimes it can help on bad records. On many metal albums (earlier Metallica) it makes the sound "healthier". However on Air 'La Femme d'Argent' the original sound quality is so good that any change would only decrease that nice balance. (Anyway, 2 days ago I wanted to create a very similar topic, and that great site refused it.)

On wide range hi fi it plays the music as it has been recorded! So Air, whose productions are exemplary! Will sound fab..and not so good produced music will sound accordingly not as good? Having a button to make things sound better? Lol..thats absurd! With good hifi this question never arises! It just plays it as it is!

 

[matthewpiano]

As I said, the option being there isn't a problem. If you don't like it, don't use it!

Hi-Fi doesn't have to ascribe to some mythical approval of features.

 

[kukulec]

"... and not so good produced music will sound accordingly not as good?" bingo. I have a nice hi-fi, I heard 10 times more costly as well, but if the source is not well made, the result will be very limited, even if you listen it on a truly great stereo. The loudness use a different tone. Naturally it cannot add anything to the resolution, however it can help to organise better the sound. That's what I hear on my system. (I prefer sound direct mode, but what can I do, if there are bands who had not enough money or intention or technology at that time to create the finest possible sound?)

 

[keeper of the quays]

"... and not so good produced music will sound accordingly not as good?" bingo. I have a nice hi-fi, I heard 10 times more costly as well, but if the source is not well made, the result will be very limited, even if you listen it on a truly great stereo. The loudness use a different tone. Naturally it cannot add anything to the resolution, however it can help to organise better the sound. That's what I hear on my system. (I prefer sound direct mode, but what can I do, if there are bands who had not enough money or intention or technology at that time to create the finest possible sound?)

accept the sound warts and all...i have Beatles albums which sound horrible! As you go up the hi fi ladder you may find better equipment covers nothing up? This means better recordings sound a lot better..as covering up bad recordings? Takes away something from the music..it will do this on good recordings too...if it were me? I would accept the bad, good and brilliant! It's part of hi fi rich tapestry..why have sack cloth when silk is better?