linn talks rubbish

[FunkyMonkey]

Came across this the other day. A 'new' concept by Linn where they do sound optimisation to try to compensate for room distortion.

Firstly I do not understand why there is a limited speaker list that they can optimise for.

Secondly, have not Audyssey and receivers with that in been doing this for universal and multiple speakers for at least 7 years?

What's the big deal?

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Here is the link...http://www.linn.co.uk/systems/technology/space-optimisation?gclid=CJbA-KiTzcUCFSr3wgodf3UAEA

 

[spiny norman]

Came across this the other day. A 'new' concept by Linn where they do sound optimisation to try to compensate for room distortion.

Not really new: Linn's been talking about this for some time now. But becuase you haven't heard about it before doesn't neccessarily mean it's rubbish.

Firstly I do not understand why there is a limited speaker list that they can optimise for.

Because they compensate mathematically, not using a microphone, meaning they need to have measured the speaker parameters before they can optimise, as the system optimises for the characteristics of the speakers, not just the way they sound in the room.

Secondly, have not Audyssey and receivers with that in been doing this for universal and multiple speakers for at least 7 years?

Not really: the approaches and the effects are somewhat different.

What's the big deal?

See above.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Well it is quite new to most systems as they say it is available to download.

I still do not understand how this is any different to any other EQ system and what are they trying to say about the speakers that only certain ones are compatible.

They talk about optimisation. It's just not very clear what that means. Are they saying that they are just doing equalization of all frequencies?

 

[spiny norman]

Well it is quite new to most systems as they say it is available to download.

SPACE optimisation is new-ish, but it's an extension of the work Linn was already doing as part of its Exakt technology.

I still do not understand how this is any different to any other EQ system and what are they trying to say about the speakers that only certain ones are compatible.

Because the technology relies on measurement of speaker parameters, and not just the placement of a microphone in the room and a swift set of test-tones, it's so far only compatibie with those speakers for which Linn has data.

They talk about optimisation. It's just not very clear what that means. Are they saying that they are just doing equalization of all frequencies?

It involves optimisation of the signal being fed to the speakers to take account of the characteristics of those speakers and, going forward, the characteristics of the room in which they're used and the position of the speakers within that room.

 

[ellisdj]

I seems to me to be a trio of things it does - and other companies do do similar however - auddessey will be different to arc and be different to ypao which is different to dirac and room perfect - so it depends on how good the system is soundign for Music!!

I think firstly it appears to eq excess freqs - thats is nothing new - but it will depend on how it does it - dirac for example uses 2 types of filter to stop phase shift - thats different to other systems.

I think secondly going by the jargon it looks to ensure the drivers are correctly integrated in the speaker and that the room interaction isnt preventing proper and smooth crossover.

I dare say the spaker may need measuring in an anacheic chamber to measure this so they have a reference point to aim for - this will be why only certain speakers are available. I dont know if this is similar to Devialet and Sam. They ,may need to do this themsleves are be issued correct data from the manufacturer

SO THIS BIT IT MY GUESS IS TRUE IS EXCELLENT - Rather than trying to eq a system to match a target curve - whihc doesnt sound good for music - the system tries to make the speaker response as exactly designed - so the speaker sounds as designed not how someone else thinks it should - now that is class if that is true and if it works

Thirdly I think it will time align the speakers to be in phase with each other so that if the speakers are not perfectly placed it wont affect the sound as much as it would with out this.

So in theory its adding a time delay similar to a distance setting in an avr.

This is purely educated guesswork

If this is all true none of this is really revolutionary but its never been readily available in hifi products so that aspect is

And its all done for you by the dealer so no knowledge is needed which is great service for a top paying customer such as a Linn customer

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Okay now I'm getting it. You see, I am a big Audyssey fan, and I love how Audyssey plus personal tweaking gives detail and space to sound.

However, My big bear has always been that it's brilliant for multi channel music (Sacd) and AV, but it sounds too clinical for CD music, of which I own a lot.

But if Linn does indeed bring out the characteristics of my speakers, that would be amazing.

No Tannoys are listed, alas, so I will get onto them.

 

[Pedro2]

Hi FunkyMonkey,

I tried to post about my experiences with Space some weeks ago but this *!@(*! website lost it all! Never mind... stay calm.

I too have 'unlisted' speakers (ATC SCM11) but use a Linn Majik DSM streamer. Following some advice on the Linn forum, I input a speaker with some similar characteristics to my own (non-ported, standmount etc). I then went through the room settings which include listening position, ideal listening position, dimensions, build material of floors, walls and ceiling etc.

Linn recommend that you then apply the Space optimisation and refine some of the settings (for your room modes, treble shelf etc). If you are in a rush, I don't recommend it but with an hour or two to spare, it's ok.

The result; a definite change in the sound. It's not night and day stuff, however and with my speakers in my room, the change is quite subtle. It definitely has 'cleaned up' some of the mid/upper frequencies so that you can follow instruments and voices more easily. I think with other speakers, the audible change may be even greater as the new ATCs are very accomodating in all kinds of rooms, which is one reason why we bought them.

I'm looking forward to Linn listing ATCs on their Space programme (no pun intended) but the acid test at the moment is - do I keep it switched on or turn it off? It's staying on..... so I'm really quite pleased. Like a lot of other posters on the Linn forum, I also think that Linn have done well to design improvements for their products and then provide free of charge to existing owners of their digital streaming products. Are Linn rubbish for this? The answer's no, I think they've been rather clever and served their customers well!

Pedro

 

[Frank Harvey]

Most EQ systems, if not all, are geared towards trying to produce a flat response from a system in any given room, by measuring test tones played through the speakers. Of course, the EQ system doesn't know what the speakers sound like, so will usually smooth out any particular characteristics your system may have.

To properly EQ a speaker, anechoic measurements of the speaker are needed as well as the room they're being used in, but then you're in the position of if the processor can remove the effects of the room, and leave the speaker's characteristics intact, it will be just like listening to your speaker in an anechoic chamber, which is arguably not an ideal environment for an enjoyable listening experience.

Of course, there is the argument of whether an EQ system can drastically change the output of the signal at the drive units to remove the room's effects across the whole frequency spectrum, and present you with 100% of what you should be hearing.

 

[ellisdj]

Hi David - that is pretty much exactly what I said above, you copy cat - so we are the same page predominantly for once

However the speaker will never sound like its in an anachaeic chamber unless you listen in one.

There will always be room interaction - no digital system can rule out room effects completely so its best not worry about that.

There will be always be a sound decay in a room whereas the anacheic chamber it will be near instant - sound is there and gone - this is not a natural way to hear things unless you live in a vacuum - my dyson might like it - he can afford it as well

I am pretty sure thats how the chamber works anyway

But I think for Linn to put this system into place does show they appreciate important listening factors - such as the room - but the statement of put your speakers anywhere it will sound the sound as in the optimal place I have a hard time believing.

Better version of maybe but not the same

 

[Frank Harvey]

Apologies ellisdj, I didn't actually read your post due to its length!

Another manufacturer (or possibly more accurately, their distributor) are making claims that their EQ "removes the room" and leaves the speaker's characteristics intact - people seem to be falling for it though. I've argued the point that it's not possible, and I've asked exactly how it does it, but never really get a satisfactory reply. I'm open to hearing it though, should the chance present itself.

I'm not "anti" EQ, as I'm shortly going to be introducing DIRAC into my AV system to get to grips with it, and also use it to set up various pre-amps we have that have an onboard PEQ to get the most out of them in our demo rooms/areas. I currently use no EQ, so will mainly be using DIRAC to EQ sub frequencies - I'll see what can be done higher up the frequency range, but I'd rather leave those frequencies untouched by extra processing.

 

[ellisdj]

Apologies ellisdj, I didn't actually read your post due to its length!

Another manufacturer (or possibly more accurately, their distributor) are making claims that their EQ "removes the room" and leaves the speaker's characteristics intact - people seem to be falling for it though. I've argued the point that it's not possible, and I've asked exactly how it does it, but never really get a satisfactory reply. I'm open to hearing it though, should the chance present itself.

I'm not "anti" EQ, as I'm shortly going to be introducing DIRAC into my AV system to get to grips with it, and also use it to set up various pre-amps we have that have an onboard PEQ to get the most out of them in our demo rooms/areas. I currently use no EQ, so will mainly be using DIRAC to EQ sub frequencies - I'll see what can be done higher up the frequency range, but I'd rather leave those frequencies untouched by extra processing.

Are you saying I waffle on ..... - I think thats an equally shared trait all the same.

My waffled on posts are more informative .........

 

[cheeseboy]

Another manufacturer (or possibly more accurately, their distributor) are making claims that their EQ "removes the room" and leaves the speaker's characteristics intact - people seem to be falling for it though. I've argued the point that it's not possible, and I've asked exactly how it does it, but never really get a satisfactory reply.

what, a hifi company making ourageous claims with nothing to back it up, imagine that (tongue firmly in cheek, just in case there's any confusion )

 

[Frank Harvey]

However the speaker will never sound like its in an anachaeic chamber unless you listen in one.

There will always be room interaction - no digital system can rule out room effects completely so its best not worry about that.

There will be always be a sound decay in a room whereas the anacheic chamber it will be near instant - sound is there and gone - this is not a natural way to hear things unless you live in a vacuum - my dyson might like it - he can afford it as well

I just meant in the sense of if the claims were correct that any particular EQ could actually remove the room. Of course, it's not possible, as you say.

 

[spiny norman]

but the statement of put your speakers anywhere it will sound the sound as in the optimal place I have a hard time believing

As I understand it, the Linn concept is that you find the optimal position for the speakers in the room by listening, then record it and various other parameters such as room size, wall reflectivity and so on into the software. Then when you've moved the speakers to the domestically acceptable location you enter that new position and the system endeavours to recreate the sound of the speakers in the optimal position.

I've seen the demonstration done a couple of times at dealers now, and it does seem to work when, for example, you're forced to have the speakers against a wall or in corners, or you have to sit off-centre.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Interesting approach. I'll see if I can read up on it when I have some time, even though I'm never really likely to own any Linn equipment now or in the future.

 

[Frank Harvey]

BUT...

we all know what almost any speaker sounds like when it's been pushed up against a wall. Can you electronically reproduce the same sound as when it is free of the walls? Of course you can cut/boost frequencies, but will that be enough to replicate that 'end goal'?

 

[FunkyMonkey]

I have been a fan of Audyssey because it not only gives linear frequency response but also does time domain changes.

Using my own ears, the difference is night and day.

As I said above,my only issue is with CD. It is so good that it can sound clinical on brightly recorded CDs. Interesting is that my older CDs , say from last century, sound more mellow.

Anyway, to the point...Audyssey equipped receivers should allow us to change the target curve that we want to achieve so that in effect I could make the sound a bit more mellow. Dare I say, more vinyl like.