Kimber to Belkin PureAV - Cable Myth?

[WishTree]

I am not intending to start a forum debate between the believers and non believers in Cables.. My background on cables is pretty minimal. Sometime back I have read this http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm and he sounded very genuine old timer with no ulterior motives.

My system had a very bad wiring - even as per the above link - that most of it is wired with a very thin 24 / 20 Gauge wire except the mains with may be 18 guage and no poular brand. Infact when I switched to bi-amping fronts one of the run was still 24 / 20 guage. Recently I kind of got into this hobby slightly seriously but not serious enough to invest good amount of money on cables.. The driving factor for me is if I individually can not perceive the difference then it is not there for me!

I upgraded the mains wires to Kimber 8VS 2 X 3M biwire prefabricated (Ofcourse, I could not run the bi-amp mode as the cable was a prefabricated bi-wire). The amount of difference that I noticed was almost negligible. For no perceivable difference, I did not intend to spend money so sold the cables on ebay.

I found some spare time a month or so back and I bought a very long 15 Guage Belkin PureAV Flat cable to rewire all the system at a very good price. The idea was to stay in line with the above website. As my side speakers need almost 8 meter run each and the rest can do under 3meter run each, I told myself that 15 guage is fine and it was not expensive either. My fronts are bi-amped. The whole speaker rewiring costed very little and the expected outcome was almost negligible improvement. Surprisingly, the system performance improved leaps and bounds.. I have been wanting to write this off as my mind playing tricks on me but when ever I play a familiar track I keep listening to new things consistently after the wire upgrade .

After listening long enough, I am very much convinced that the improvement is due to the wire upgrade and as of now, I would like to park my observations as below

Use the same speaker wire for the entire system to have the sound / details consistent.

Stay with in the guage prescription and any brand (with out getting influenced by the pride of the brand) should do fine as long as there is no budget constraint

If I have missed out any thing significantly important here, Please let me know your objective views staying as away as possible to brand pride .

 

[007L2Thrill]

Well to start, I would say speaker cables make a big difference and I was surprised you said you heard no difference with the Kimber 8vs as this is a really great cable as I have this bi-amped to my main speakers and bi-wired to the rest, but it may have been because you had it bi-wired to your speakers as your cable before you said was bi-amped, as your AMP may sound a lot better this way.

For cables, I have brought loads over the last 15 years and my first cable was audio technica and to be honest it was only a little better then the bell cable I had, then I got QED qudos the original that came out and that was a ear opener, massive amounts of treble, but to me the best overall cable even today for the money as to be IXOS gamma 6006, this sounds as good as many high end cables, but I was lucky enough to buy a kimber monocle XL speaker cable costing £1200 and this cable blown me away on my NAIM system, how it sounded was like someone placed my AMP in the speaker, like there was no speaker cable there, to me when I brought it 7 years ago I would of said it was worth every penny, but now I would say it was not worth it and if I had to stick with a cheap cable I would go back to my IXOS 6006 every time.

So to answer your question, no its not in your head, your cable is letting more information to your speakers and always keep the same type wires for the main left, centre, right, and surrounds if you can, but some people think its ok to use cheaper wire on the surrounds, but just keep to the same brand.

I looked at most of the information from the link you provided, not all as its late so will look more tomorrow.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I said it before and I will say it again.

I went from cambridge audio bell wire to QED XT evolution and put one on one speaker and left the other with bell wire.

Put the two speakers up to my ear and played about 10 different songs and movie clips and I could not hear a difference.

So went as cheap as possible for my speakers and bought QED Micro, and I think the sound is great

 

[WishTree]

Thanks a lot for your reply and possibly giving me an alternate way of looking at the cables. As I have said, I am only JUST getting into this hobby - my next step, based on the conviction I get, would be to upgrade all the cables in few months time and see if there is a real difference for me beyond the guage specification (and possible oxidation proofing) in cables.

I am still surprised the science / technology has not developed so much to capture the difference in measurable technical differences. Every other electronics company differentiates even for 200 pounds, so much in thier electronic product range like AVR or amps or for that matter speakers.

But the cable manufacturer specifications are so restricted from a 100 Pound cable to 1000 Pound worth cable that it feels more like art than science!

 

[aliEnRIK]

With regards to the kimber cable, they tend to take a while before the results shine (believed by some to be a reaction of the metal to the outer sheathing). Perhaps you simply didnt leave it on your system long enough?

 

[The_Lhc]

WishTree:I upgraded the mains wires to Kimber 8VS 2 X 3M biwire prefabricated

Eh? Bi-wired mains? What?

(Ofcourse, I could not run the bi-amp mode as the cable was a prefabricated bi-wire).

Are you talking about speaker cables here? Say that then, mains is completely different and you don't want to get the two mixed up.

 

[WishTree]

aliEnRIK:With regards to the kimber cable, they tend to take a while before the results shine (believed by some to be a reaction of the metal to the outer sheathing). Perhaps you simply didnt leave it on your system long enough?

Really? No wonder they were mentioning that the cables were 60 hour pre-run and good to go from the first first hour. I had them on for a week. I hope that was good enough time.

 

[WishTree]

the_lhc:

Are you talking about speaker cables here? Say that then, mains is completely different and you don't want to get the two mixed up.

My bad.. I meant main speakers..In fact more specific Front Left and Front Right speaker in my Home Theatre System!

 

[007L2Thrill]

Like RIK says above is correct, but I am now confused as I have re-read your main post and you say " Kimber 8VS 2 X 3M biwire prefabricated (Of course, I could not run the bi-amp mode as the cable was a prefabricated bi-wire"

Well, when I ordered my cable there is no bi-wire option only single run and I have just checked Russ Andrews site again as I have add my cable around 3 years and there is still no option to do bi-wire with this cable with a single run and you say you ordered 2 x 3 M, so where did you buy this cable from as it sounds as you was running half the cable to LF and the other to HF and if so, you was not hearing the cable as it was intended.

 

[WishTree]

007L2Thrill:

it sounds as you was running half the cable to LF and the other to HF and if so, you was not hearing the cable as it was intended.

I had two cables - one for the left speaker and another for the left speaker. Each cable has 4 hollow banana connectors on one side and 2 hollow banana connector on the other side. I had connected the 4 side to four binding posts of the speaker and 2 connectors to + and - of the AVR.

AVR was set to Front A (though currently I am running Front A bi-amp)

Do you think I have connected the system right for a bi-wire connection?

Now I have two seperate cables running to each speaker. On the speaker side two ends are connected to the four binding posts individually. On the AVR side they are connected to the Front A terminals and Surround / BiAmp terminals as shown in the manual. AVR is set to Front A Bi-Amp mode. I am assuming that this is a bi-amp connection. Do you think I got this right?

 

[007L2Thrill]

Yes you have installed your cable what you have now correctly for bi-amped.

Can you remember when you brought the kimber 8vs, was there 2 cable runs terminated in to two banana plugs at amp end, or was it just one piece of cable with 2 banana plugs to 4 banana plugs, the reason why I ask, if it was just one piece of cable then you was only using half of the cable, so it was really acting a 4vs cable, where did you buy it from as I have looked around the net for companies terminating in the config you say and I can not find it.

But the main thing is that you have got a cable that you like now.

 

[Anonymous]

WishTree:
Thanks a lot for your reply and possibly giving me an alternate way of looking at the cables. As I have said, I am only JUST getting into this hobby - my next step, based on the conviction I get, would be to upgrade all the cables in few months time and see if there is a real difference for me beyond the guage specification (and possible oxidation proofing) in cables.

I am still surprised the science / technology has not developed so much to capture the difference in measurable technical differences. Every other electronics company differentiates even for 200 pounds, so much in thier electronic product range like AVR or amps or for that matter speakers.

But the cable manufacturer specifications are so restricted from a 100 Pound cable to 1000 Pound worth cable that it feels more like art than science!

Why do you want to waste money on "upgrading" if you're happy with what you've got?? Cables are strictly peripheral an far less important that some people and manufacturers make out. They're not a part of the hobby at all.

It "feels more like art than science" because it is. Once you start applying science, differences between cables evaporate.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi WishTree - It doesn't surprise me that you came to the conclusions that you did.
Unfortunately you were comparing bi-amping which is a significant improvement with just bi-wiring.

I have Kimber 4tc in my system, used it for many years now and find it adds tremendously to the musicality.

Pleased that you have arrived at a solution that fits your pocket, but you would have had a different opinion if you bi-amped the Kimber cable.

 

[WishTree]

007L2Thrill:

Can you remember when you brought the kimber 8vs, was there 2 cable runs terminated in to two banana plugs at amp end, or was it just one piece of cable with 2 banana plugs to 4 banana plugs

Here is an old image of the cable

I hope I managed to insert the picture. in each cable there are 4 pairs of twisted wires. At one end these 4 pairs are terminated in four hollow banana.. On the other side, 4 pair come out as 2 ends and have 2 bananas terminations.

 

[WishTree]

trevor79:Pleased that you have arrived at a solution that fits your pocket, but you would have had a different opinion if you bi-amped the Kimber cable.

I am actually more concerned now about the parameters that can be changed.

bi-amping a good quality cheap cable vs bi-wiring very good quality expensive (to me) cable results in much noticeable sound difference

I am just concerned now that though by choosing Belkin Pure AV 15 Guage Flat wire, I am seeing a huge difference but I need an opinion whether I am loosing something because it is a flat wire and it does not appear to be a twisted pair.

As time progresses, I am feeling that the high frequency side is getting so clear that though I can enjoy the sweetness in the vocals, it is also reaching that stage where it feels overly bright.

Almost lost!

 

[stephennic]

Hi,

I found kimber 8tc a big improvement on my system, tried many cable over the years. QED silver, chord, bell wire, IXOS, supra 2.5, Eichmann etc. The soundstage is much more open with depth and with a more natural timbre, detail is better too. Maybe the limiting factor is some of the components.

Cheers

Steve.

 

[Anonymous]

Fools and their money....

 

[AL13N]

You can keep experimenting with cables until you find the sound you like. Or you can save yourself a lot of time, hassle and money by purchasing cable with sufficient gauge and shielding and buying an equalizer (remember those!).

I'd suggest trying some 6mm OFC cable with <10 Ohm/Km resistance. This will send the music from your amp to speakers with minimal interferance. You can then proceed to overide the mixing/mastering/production as suits your taste and preference.

Then again, if you're not moving home (have a permanent acoustic environment), find a cable that makes your music sound how you like it, and have the money to afford it without selling a kidney (or even worse, using credit), then go for it.

Enjoy the music.

 

[idc]

WishTree, when you changed cables did you notice any of the following?

At the same position with the volume control the sound is louder with one cable than the other?

With one cable you have a wider usable range with the volume control than the other?

Or were both cables the same in respect to the volume control and the overall volume?

 

[Anonymous]

WishTree, How new is the cable, you do know it will bed in and sound less harsh given 100 plus hours.
Being a non woven design unlike Kimber means that it will pick up RF pollution off the mains which could be causing harshness.

Buying a Tacima is an inexpensive way of reducing this noise, your amp might not like it as it might restrict current flow at high volumes but your PS3, TV etc will love it.

One of the things you can do if you intend to stay in the house for a while is fit a dedicated radial, one of the best value for money upgrades you can do.

 

[WishTree]

idc:
WishTree, when you changed cables did you notice any of the following?

At the same position with the volume control the sound is louder with one cable than the other?

With one cable you have a wider usable range with the volume control than the other?

Or were both cables the same in respect to the volume control and the overall volume?

I use Audyssey in AVR and it works fine for me except for the volume levels of individual speakers. When I switched to Belkin, I am asking my AVR to increase the level of main volume to hear at the same level as before. Also the center speaker is more prominent and I really have to put it down not to make it a dominating one.

One more thing, and this might sound crazy, but some of the base beats / bits are more detailed. Some one who has a very sensitive ear has to hear it too to give me another opinion and a good friend will be doing it over the weekend and I will keep posted more then.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Tarquinh:Fools and their money....

Not very nice that Tar'

 

[aliEnRIK]

AL13N: Or you can save yourself a lot of time, hassle and money by purchasing cable with sufficient gauge and shielding and buying an equalizer (remember those!).

My AV8003 has audyssey built in but ive found its at deriment to sound quality

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:
Tarquinh:Fools and their money....Not very nice that Tar'Truth seldom is.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Tarquinh:aliEnRIK:

Tarquinh:Fools and their money....Not very nice that Tar'Truth seldom is.

When the truth is finally revealed for all, ill make sure your the 1st to know