KEF REF 1: Which Amp will give the sweetest sound?

[nemo78]

What are your experiences listening to the KEF Reference 1 speakers? What amps were they paired with?

I already have the REF 1 and use it now with a Krell Vanguard. The whole experience is detailed in another thread https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/incredibly-detailed-too-harsh-time. To summarise, I am using the REF 1 and Krell, with an Antilla CDP, and Chord Odyssey 2 cables, in a somewhat large/medium size room.

I am now in a position to test (and add) another amp (preferably integrated). I prefer the sound to be detailed but warm/ sweet, never harsh.

I have already arranged for auditions for Naim XS2, Naim SN2 and the Rega Elicit R. Of course these Naim/ Rega dealers WON'T have the REF1 to pair with at the auditions, and I am unable to take mine with me.

What other amps do you think I should audition? Thank you.

 

[jjbomber]

I have already arranged for auditions for Naim XS2, Naim SN2 and the Rega Elicit R. Of course these Naim/ Rega dealers WON'T have the REF1 to pair with at the auditions, and I am unable to take mine with me.

Book a home trial of the amps and test them in your own living room. All good hifi shops will let you do this. They normally swipe your credit card in case you don't take it back.

 

[drummerman]

Sony STR DB 930.

Sounds like a superb valve amp but with power.

 

[nemo78]

I have already arranged for auditions for Naim XS2, Naim SN2 and the Rega Elicit R. Of course these Naim/ Rega dealers WON'T have the REF1 to pair with at the auditions, and I am unable to take mine with me.

Book a home trial of the amps and test them in your own living room. All good hifi shops will let you do this. They normally swipe your credit card in case you don't take it back.

Thanks, that would be perfect. Unfortunately, not an option for me at this time.

 

[nopiano]

In 2016 I had a most enjoyable time in the Hegel room at the Bristol show. I know these aren't ideal places to assess things, but the fact the results were so good told me a lot about both products.

There is a huge thread somewhere here about what to put with a Hegel amp, and amongst other revelations the manufacturer apparently uses the R-series, and in particular the R700/900 models.

In the room, the Reference 1 sounded more like a floorstander in sheer scale and image size, not to mention prodigious bass. The only snag for me with the Hegel range is the paucity of inputs, but they know today's market, and DACs not tuners matter!

Exposure also make a very decent and underrated integrated, which I think I'd prefer to either Naim or Rega with your speakers. (I'd be wary the Naim's deliberately engineered weak damping factor will exert enough control)

I'm not sure if any of these are exactly sweet, but I'd also look out if you can hear one of my Primare I32 at home, as it has exceeded my expectations. And I speak as a former Krell KAV300i user.

Good luck!

 

[Vladimir]

Roksan Kandy K3

 

[nemo78]

Hi there again

It is my experience that these speakers require a high quality amp, that is going to be expensive, so worth looking for deals on an ex-dem....what is your maximum budget?

I would look at :

- Pathos Logos (Gorgeous sounding Hybrid Valve/SS amp)

- Arcam A49

- Musical Fidelity Nu Vista 600 (Hybrid Valve/SS) ; M6 500

Other brands might include Classe, Plinius, Luxman, Accuphase, Sugden, Mc Intosh and Electrocompanier (or Abrahamsen)....depending on Budget.

To drive the Refs with a Valve amp, would require very powerful Monoblocks from the likes of Mc Intosh, Jadis and Icon Audio.

Around 5k USD

 

[nemo78]

Hi would you mind elaborating? the K3 is readily available here and I just added it to my audtioning list but would love to hear your experience with this

 

[CnoEvil]

What brands do you have access to....Vincent might be another possibility?

From the sound you describe, which has to overcome the acoustic problems of your room, it would make a lot of sense to look at Hybrid Amps....which mixes the sweetness of valves in the Pre, with the power of a Solid State Amp....and Pathos do this better than most.

I strongly suspect you will need to spend every cent of that 5K.

Here is a thread (in 2 parts) that bear similarities to your situation:

https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/newbie-help-please

https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/driving-proac-d38s

 

[insider9]

Hi would you mind elaborating? the K3 is readily available here and I just added it to my audtioning list but would love to hear your experience with this

I know the question was aimed at Vladimir but I was really disappointed with K3. In my mind worth it only if it was half the RRP. Your experiences might be different so if you do have an opportunity go and have a listen and let us know what you think.

 

[nemo78]

I'll update the brands available on friday, when I visit the Adelphi mall (all hifi shops in Singapore are in that one mall). I recall there were some (mostly Chinese) tube amps there, but I never paid them much attention before.

 

[nemo78]

Hi would you mind elaborating? the K3 is readily available here and I just added it to my audtioning list but would love to hear your experience with this

I know the question was aimed at Vladimir but I was really disappointed with K3. In my mind worth it only if it was half the RRP. Your experiences might be different so if you do have an opportunity go and have a listen and let us know what you think.

Thanks, 'insider'!

 

[Vladimir]

Hi would you mind elaborating? the K3 is readily available here and I just added it to my audtioning list but would love to hear your experience with this

I had the K2 BT last itteration which became the K3 with a new faceplate. Sound was excellent, very smooth and drove my Canton made 4 ohms sealed enclosure floorstanders with ease. Bass was tight, fast yet it dug deep. Top end was silky and unfatiguing, yet detailed. The Seas tweeters I have are raw unattenuated and by design have no ferrofluid cooling, so they are on the bright detailed side. The Roksan complemented them well.
Heavy, quallity buld, superb fit and finish and I even liked the remote.
The BT AptX feature is awesome, stupid easy to use.
People who are used to slight clipping, distortion and compression from their amps will find it too smooth or even dull. Unlike most amps it does't run out of power at 9 o'clock on the dial. Input sensitivity is at 500mV, which means using the volume pot in the best range. First and last 15% is usually ****.

 

[radiorog]

What's your price range? If you are looking at the elicit, I would want a look at the Roksan blak as well.
I have the K3, and it's a great sounding amp. As Vlad says,Very powerful, sweet sounding, and picks out some nice details that were less present in the old k2. Bass is fantastic.
I expect the blak to be a very good amp indeed.

 

[Q5]

Hi there again

It is my experience that these speakers require a high quality amp, that is going to be expensive, so worth looking for deals on an ex-dem....what is your maximum budget?

I would look at :

- Pathos Logos (Gorgeous sounding Hybrid Valve/SS amp)

- Arcam A49

- Musical Fidelity Nu Vista 600 (Hybrid Valve/SS) ; M6 500

Other brands might include Classe, Plinius, Luxman, Accuphase, Sugden, Mc Intosh and Electrocompanier (or Abrahamsen)....depending on Budget.

To drive the Refs with a Valve amp, would require very powerful Monoblocks from the likes of Mc Intosh, Jadis and Icon Audio.

I can validate that the A49 and Ref 1 are a good match, I have the A49 but with the LS50.

I did demo the Ref 1 and wish I hadn't because I now want them.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'll update the brands available on friday, when I visit the Adelphi mall (all hifi shops in Singapore are in that one mall). I recall there were some (mostly Chinese) tube amps there, but I never paid them much attention before.

Your speakers are fairly inefficient @85dB, but the main problem for a Valve Amp, is the plummeting impedance, to a low of 3.2 Ohms. This is like having a water pipe, with a diameter that expands during use, which means if you want the water pressure to remain, you need a pump that has huge reserves of "pumping abilitity".

It is the same with speakers. The lower the impedance drops, the more reserves of power an amp needs, as the speaker "soaks it up". This is an area where Valve amps can struggle, unless they have a very robust power supply....which is why you would be looking at Monoblocks.

It is very important that your dealer gives good advice and that you try the speakers on the amp (and then have a home dem).

Not all Valve amps are created equal....and they have a general strength in their "liquid" midrange, but often have a weakness, where they don't control the bass as well as a SS amp. This is probably a compromise that you could live with....and may not even notice.

 

[MajorFubar]

I don't have anywhere near enough knowledge in the price-bracket you're looking at, other than to point out that in your general search for a warm meaty sound which isn't harsh, there's going to be an unavoidable limitation to the depth of sound possible from a pair of speakers with 6.5" bass drivers no matter what amp you partner them with, even speakers like yours which cost the price of a nearly-new small car. To hijack a phrase from the performance-car community, there's really no replacement for displacement.

I followed your other thread with interest, though I contributed little because I don't have any experience with products at the prices you look at. I hope you soon find a sound you're happy with. In total your hifi cost about 50% the price of my house when I bought it. I defend your right to spend that kind of miney on hifi, but in return I'd expect a hifi which ticked pretty much every box imaginable in terms of listening pleasure. If after all that money your system is still leaving you cold, perhaps you need a fundamental rethink from the speakers up.

 

[CnoEvil]

I don't have anywhere near enough knowledge in the price-bracket you're looking at, other than to point out that in your general search for a warm meaty sound which isn't harsh, there's going to be an unavoidable limitation to the depth of sound possible from a pair of speakers with 6.5" bass drivers no matter what amp you partner them with, even speakers like yours which cost the price of a nearly-new small car. To hijack a phrase from the performance-car community, there's really no replacement for displacement.

Major, these speakers are "huge", for standmounts...especially in depth. Kef's specifications for their Reference range is more accurate than most and the Frequency Range and In Room Response, is almost identical to my 205/2s...which is quite something (and probably not far away).

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi there again

It is my experience that these speakers require a high quality amp, that is going to be expensive, so worth looking for deals on an ex-dem....what is your maximum budget?

I would look at :

- Pathos Logos (Gorgeous sounding Hybrid Valve/SS amp)

- Arcam A49

- Musical Fidelity Nu Vista 600 (Hybrid Valve/SS) ; M6 500

Other brands might include Classe, Plinius, Luxman, Accuphase, Sugden, Mc Intosh and Electrocompaniet (or Abrahamsen)....depending on Budget.

To drive the Refs with a Valve amp, would require very powerful Monoblocks from the likes of Mc Intosh, Jadis and Icon Audio.

 

[Native_bon]

I don't have anywhere near enough knowledge in the price-bracket you're looking at, other than to point out that in your general search for a warm meaty sound which isn't harsh, there's going to be an unavoidable limitation to the depth of sound possible from a pair of speakers with 6.5" bass drivers no matter what amp you partner them with, even speakers like yours which cost the price of a nearly-new small car. To hijack a phrase from the performance-car community, there's really no replacement for displacement.

I followed your other thread with interest, though I contributed little because I don't have any experience with products at the prices you look at. I hope you soon find a sound you're happy with. In total your hifi cost about 50% the price of my house when I bought it. I defend your right to spend that kind of miney on hifi, but in return I'd expect a hifi which ticked pretty much every box imaginable in terms of listening pleasure. If after all that money your system is still leaving you cold, perhaps you need a fundamental rethink from the speakers up.

Major, I don't know a lot about KEF REF speakers, but would disagree with you about six inch woofers not producing right amount of or enough bass. I have six inch woofers on my speakers & the depth & definition is something that needs to be heard to be believed.

 

[MajorFubar]

Major, I don't know a lot about KEF REF speakers, but would disagree with you about six inch woofers not producing right amount of or enough bass. I have six inch woofers on my speakers & the depth & definition is something that needs to be heard to be believed.

I didn't really say they can't produce the right amount or enough. All I'm saying is maybe the OP is looking for a sound that he won't get with his current speakers, no matter what amp he bolts them to. Our individual idea of audio nirvana is a personal thing to each one of us. Nor do we know the effect of his room acoustics and his listening position.

I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it open right now, but his previous thread began with the complaint that the sound was almost 'too detailed' to the point where he found it harsh and unlistenable. I interpretted that to mean it was lacking warmth and low end. Now I've never really spent gazillions on an amp, but I've heard enough at the low to mid price bracket to know that different amps probably aren't going to solve a tonal balance problem. I'm not arguing all amps sound the same, I know more powerful amps can sound more muscly for example, but in terms of tonal balance, an amp is either flat or it's not. If it's not, it's been either deliberately toned to be 'warm' or 'bright', or it's faulty. I'm not aware of any manufacturer of integrated amps claiming theirs are anything but flat. In fact the specs usually boast about it, often to frequencies of 50kHz and beyond.

I know the speakers themselves are physically large, and I don't doubt their quality, but if it was all just about cabinet volume, manufacturers could bolt some 4" drivers to a box the size of a giant's coffin and be done with it. It's more true to say it's down to whether the speaker manufacturer's interpretation of audio nirvana is closely matched to yours.

Just sayin', that is all. Peace to one and all.

 

[Native_bon]

Major, I don't know a lot about KEF REF speakers, but would disagree with you about six inch woofers not producing right amount of or enough bass. I have six inch woofers on my speakers & the depth & definition is something that needs to be heard to be believed.

I didn't really say they can't produce the right amount or enough. All I'm saying is maybe the OP is looking for a sound that he won't get with his current speakers, no matter what amp he bolts them to. Our individual idea of audio nirvana is a personal thing to each one of us. Nor do we know the effect of his room acoustics and his listening position.

I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it open right now, but his previous thread began with the complaint that the sound was almost 'too detailed' to the point where he found it harsh and unlistenable. I interpretted that to mean it was lacking warmth and low end. Now I've never really spent gazillions on an amp, but I've heard enough at the low to mid price bracket to know that different amps probably aren't going to solve a tonal balance problem. I'm not arguing all amps sound the same, I know more powerful amps can sound more muscly for example, but in terms of tonal balance, an amp is either flat or it's not. If it's not, it's been either deliberately toned to be 'warm' or 'bright', or it's faulty. I'm not aware of any manufacturer of integrated amps claiming theirs are anything but flat. In fact the specs usually boast about it, often to frequencies of 50kHz and beyond.

I know the speakers themselves are physically large, and I don't doubt their quality, but if it was all just about cabinet volume, manufacturers could bolt some 4" drivers to a box the size of a giant's coffin and be done with it. It's more true to say it's down to whether the speaker manufacturer's interpretation of audio nirvana is closely matched to yours.

Just sayin', that is all. Peace to one and all.

I agree to most of what you saying. Some speakers are really demanding of what is used to drive them before they really start to sing. Also boils dwn to quality of driver amongst other things. I personally find most popular speakers over bearing & lacking cohesion whole. Either mids low or high frequencies are exaggerated. I believe its always better to get a flat response from speakers inother to tell whats happening with amp & source.

If you get too thin a sound you loose out on rich undertones, & bass without definition you loose out on rhythm. 95% of speakers from my experience just do not do muzic justice.

 

[newlash09]

help in a case like this, to reduce the higher frequency output, though would result in a slight reduction in clarity. And considering the left speaker being closer to the wall than the right, using the balance correctly could offset the asymmetrical placement. Just my 2 cents

 

[Vladimir]

help in a case like this, to reduce the higher frequency output,

Only if you are lucky. Your treble tone control might attenuate at 10kHz and your actual problem be at 6kHz.

 

[newlash09]

Thanks Vladimir. Well noted. True...