KEF REF 1: Which Amp will give the sweetest sound?

[Reijer]

I've heard the Ref 1 and 5 driven by a Hegel pre and power set. Sounded brilliant. But my experience is that taste of sound varies by country. Bright in one country is harsh/fatiguing in another. So bare in mind that you ask advice on a Brittish forum and take the diffrences in consideration.

Good luck with your search.

 

[CnoEvil]

I've heard the Ref 1 and 5 driven by a Hegel pre and power set. Sounded brilliant. But my experience is that taste of sound varies by country. Bright in one country is harsh/fatiguing in another. So bare in mind that you ask advice on a Brittish forum and take the diffrences in consideration.

Good luck with your search.

While that is a good point, I feel that with the Ref 1s, a great deal of what you are hearing is the quality and Sound Signature of the Source and Amp. eg. They will sound very different on the end of a Pathos system, compared to a Chord system....and national preferences may dictate what they are paired with.

 

[Al ears]

Hi there again

It is my experience that these speakers require a high quality amp, that is going to be expensive, so worth looking for deals on an ex-dem....what is your maximum budget?

I would look at :

- Pathos Logos (Gorgeous sounding Hybrid Valve/SS amp)

- Arcam A49

- Musical Fidelity Nu Vista 600 (Hybrid Valve/SS) ; M6 500

Other brands might include Classe, Plinius, Luxman, Accuphase, Sugden, Mc Intosh and Electrocompaniet (or Abrahamsen)....depending on Budget.

To drive the Refs with a Valve amp, would require very powerful Monoblocks from the likes of Mc Intosh, Jadis and Icon Audio.

The above, and look at anything by Primare.

 

[newlash09]

At this point, I would certainly consider trying out a mini-dsp or a parametric EQ. Chuck it in the bin if it doesn't work. Another 500 pounds added to whatever is lost in switching to a different amp. Worth a try in my opinion

 

[CnoEvil]

The above, and look at anything by Primare.

Primare are excellent, but given the acoustic problems that the OP is suffering, he is looking for a warm, smooth sound to mitigate this....I would worry that Primare might be too "Clean and Neutral", for his room.

Personally, I think he needs a good Hybrid, or possibly Valve Monoblocks, as almost anything else will tip the system into brightness.

 

[Al ears]

The above, and look at anything by Primare.

Primare are excellent, but given the acoustic problems that the OP is suffering, he is looking for a warm, smooth sound to mitigate this....I would worry that Primare might be too "Clean and Neutral", for his room.

Personally, I think he needs a good Hybrid, or possibly Valve Monoblocks, as almost anything else will tip the system into brightness.

Possibly, but not in my experience. But then I, like everyone else, cannot determine exactly what the OP will hear as 'warm'. He has the wrong speakers for warm in my opinion and any valve mono amp that will drive them well is going to be pricey.

I can suggest the Tom Evans Audio Linear A though.......

 

[CnoEvil]

Possibly, but not in my experience. But then I, like everyone else, cannot determine exactly what the OP will hear as 'warm'. He has the wrong speakers for warm in my opinion and any valve mono amp that will drive them well is going to be pricey.

I can suggest the Tom Evans Audio Linear A though.......

...the problem with buying a Ferrari, is you can't run it on 2*

The speakers sound "real", if they are matched with the right components....which was the case in the dealers show room...but when replicated in his room, the acoustics effed the sound up.

I have dealt with this sort of situation before...where the answer was a Sugden A21....but the speakers were much cheaper.

IMO The only chance the speakers have of mitigating the effect of the room, is going with a smooth, powerful and detailed treble/mid....the type you get with Valves somewhere in the mix....but I don't need to tell you this.

 

[pravstar]

My personal recommendation would be to spend between £450-£800 on a second hand amp. Luxman l505 or unison unico, you have really good speakers there so partner those well imo

 

[nemo78]

My personal recommendation would be to spend between £450-£800 on a second hand amp. Luxman l505 or unison unico, you have really good speakers there so partner those well imo

Thanks, a really good idea. I will see what is available and ask you guys later.

 

[Reijer]

So a lengthy home audition with various amps and sources is the key to get the best out of these great speakers. Only audition in a store is not sufficient enough because of the acoustics of the OP's room.

 

[CnoEvil]

So a lengthy home audition with various amps and sources is the key to get the best out of these great speakers. Only audition in a store is not sufficient enough because of the acoustics of the OP's room.

....and if that's not possible, the lengthy audition can happen in store......but the preferred component(s) has to be on a "Sale or Return" basis, in case it still doesn't work in the OP's room.

Once the focus on the type of amp changes, there is a much higher chance of success.

 

[Native_bon]

My personal recommendation would be to spend between £450-£800 on a second hand amp. Luxman l505 or unison unico, you have really good speakers there so partner those well imo

Thanks, a really good idea. I will see what is available and ask you guys later.

I would definitely give Unison unicorn amps a try. Powerful yet they have a very valve like sound.

 

[nemo78]

Has anyone heard Cayin tube amps with KEF Reference speakers? these are available in Singapore.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is an interesting thread from a while back....look at Post 12, where a Cayin Amp (the previous generation to the one I suggested) was used, (all be it with upgraded Valves), to drive some previous Kef Ref 201/2, which are hard to drive.

https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/cayin-valve-amps

 

[CnoEvil]

Has anyone heard Cayin tube amps with KEF Reference speakers? these are available in Singapore.

I have never heard one, but believe they have a good reputation. They are well made and the CS-100A is supposed to be musical, slightly lush with a treble that is marginally rolled off....sounds exactly what you need (if it drives your speakers...which I think it will).

Having looked on the website, they don't appear to do Pre/Monoblocks, but do a model called CS-100A KT 88.

It produces 80 watts per channel in the class AB ultra-linear mode , 50 watts in the triode and costs 4300 Euros (I think it sells for 4000 USD). http://www.stereo.net.au/news/cayin-cs-100a-integrated-amplifier

It might power the speakers to your satisfaction, as it is a fairly substantial amplifier....you will need to take advice from the dealer and then have a dem. At this point, you need to get a sound that you love, rather than looking for ultimate in power...and this might do the job.

Remember, you also have the option of a CDP that incorporates Valves....which could help if you still need further improvement. I see Cayin also do these (no idea how good they are...but maybe worth a listen, when you are at the dealer anyway). I see CD 50T gets very good reviews.

It will produce heat, so I don't know if this is an issue for you in Singapore.

EDIT. Having dug about the Internet, Cayin have a big range of Amps, including Pre/Monoblocs....so get the most powerful one that you can afford, with the presentation you prefer...as the Valves used will determin the sound.

 

[nemo78]

Here is an interesting thread from a while back....look at Post 12, where a Cayin Amp (the previous generation to the one I suggested) was used, (all be it with upgraded Valves), to drive some previous Kef Ref 201/2, which are hard to drive.

https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/cayin-valve-amps

Thanks very much. I dont kow what Cayin models are available, so will go and see, I saw only the smaller sizes in the shop window (it was a holiday here yesterday).

 

[nemo78]

HI from Singapore!

Today I auditioned these:

Naim 250+282, with focal

Naim SN2, focal

Rega Elicit R with KEF REF 1 (enterprising little devil, the dealer, he got the KEFs on loan for me!)

Roksan Kandy 3, Caspian 2, with high ends B&W floor standers AND their high end stand mounts

And then:

Cayin A88T MKII, Cayin CS100A both Monitor audio gold

I could go on about my reactions to each of the auditions, but here is the short version.

With Naim, Rega, Roksan, it was the same sound I already get with Krell and Ref1 combo. Except each, to varying degress, lack the very tight control of bass that Krell does so well, but on the other hand, they arent as harsh. What I realized was that I didnt want to sacrifice the super resolution and tight bass I already have in my system, UNLESS I hear something truly.... special?

Then I auditioned the Cayins. They blew me away! I dont know if its some trick the dealer did, I am going again now, for another audition but I think its a no brainer. The higher end amp costs about 2k. And weighs 30kg!

 

[CnoEvil]

HI from Singapore!

Today I auditioned these:

Naim 250+282, with focal

Naim SN2, focal

Rega Elicit R with KEF REF 1 (enterprising little devil, the dealer, he got the KEFs on loan for me!)

Roksan Kandy 3, Caspian 2, with high ends B&W floor standers AND their high end stand mounts

And then:

Cayin A88T MKII, Cayin CS100A both Monitor audio gold

I could go on about my reactions to each of the auditions, but here is the short version.

With Naim, Rega, Roksan, it was the same sound I already get with Krell and Ref1 combo. Except each, to varying degress, lack the very tight control of bass that Krell does so well, but on the other hand, they arent as harsh. What I realized was that I didnt want to sacrifice the super resolution and tight bass I already have in my system, UNLESS I hear something truly.... special?

Then I auditioned the Cayins. They blew me away! I dont know if its some trick the dealer did, I am going again now, for another audition but I think its a no brainer. The higher end amp costs about 2k. And weighs 30kg!

IMO. Naim and Focal sound unpleasant together.

- While Rega Elicit and Roksan amps are excellent when used in a system within their own price range, they would be out of their depth driving highend speakers from Kef and B&W (imo)

- What you heard from a Tube Amp was no trick of the dealer....and is why I have been banging on about them. The 30kg weight bodes well, as it's the sign of a robust power supply....though it will also pull a lot of power from the wall socket (480W).

- Will you be demoing with the Refs?....and is the dealer happy that the amp(s) are up to the job, or are you looking at MAs?

- What source and cables were being used?

- Will you be allowed a home dem or ability to return if necessary?

- I look forward to your update.

 

[nemo78]

HI from Singapore!

Today I auditioned these:

Naim 250+282, with focal

Naim SN2, focal

Rega Elicit R with KEF REF 1 (enterprising little devil, the dealer, he got the KEFs on loan for me!)

Roksan Kandy 3, Caspian 2, with high ends B&W floor standers AND their high end stand mounts

And then:

Cayin A88T MKII, Cayin CS100A both Monitor audio gold

I could go on about my reactions to each of the auditions, but here is the short version.

With Naim, Rega, Roksan, it was the same sound I already get with Krell and Ref1 combo. Except each, to varying degress, lack the very tight control of bass that Krell does so well, but on the other hand, they arent as harsh. What I realized was that I didnt want to sacrifice the super resolution and tight bass I already have in my system, UNLESS I hear something truly.... special?

Then I auditioned the Cayins. They blew me away! I dont know if its some trick the dealer did, I am going again now, for another audition but I think its a no brainer. The higher end amp costs about 2k. And weighs 30kg!

IMO. Naim and Focal sound unpleasant together.

- While Rega Elicit and Roksan amps are excellent when used in a system within their own price range, they would be out of their depth driving highend speakers from Kef and B&W (imo)

- What you heard from a Tube Amp was no trick of the dealer....and is why I have been banging on about them. The 30kg weight bodes well, as it's the sign of a robust power supply....though it will also pull a lot of power from the wall socket.

- Will you be demoing with the Refs?....and is the dealer happy that the amp(s) are up to the job, or are you looking at MAs?

- What source and cables were being used?

- Will you be allowed a home dem or ability to return if necessary?

- I look forward to your update.

HI CnoE,

I couldnt go for the second audition, ran out of time today. Will do so tomorrow.

He swore that this Cayin will be more than enough to drive my KEFs. Source is a Cayin CDP, I presume thats tube too. He uses rather cheap cables.

The Roksan audtion was right after the Cayin one, I had been listening quite a while to the Cayins and then when they turned on the Roksan, I wanted to run away immediately. The girl persuaded me to listen to the Caspian, then she changed the speakers for me.

 

[CnoEvil]

HI CnoE,

I couldnt go for the second audition, ran out of time today. Will do so tomorrow.

He swore that this Cayin will be more than enough to drive my KEFs. Source is a Cayin CDP, I presume thats tube too. He uses rather cheap cables.

The Roksan audtion was right after the Cayin one, I had been listening quite a while to the Cayins and then when they turned on the Roksan, I wanted to run away immediately. The girl persuaded me to listen to the Caspian, then she changed the speakers for me.

This all sounds good (pardon the pun)....and yes, the Cayin CDP will almost certainly use valves.

If necessary, you can replicate the dealers system in your room...CDP, cables and all...but start with the amp and take it from there.

Will you be hearing the Refs with the Cayin this time round?

 

[Vladimir]

Distortion can be wonderfully appealing. Valves do that in spades.

I would keep the Krell and get those Cayin tubes, switch between as the mood dictates ocassionally.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is an interesting thread from a while back....look at Post 12, where a Cayin Amp (the previous generation to the one I suggested) was used, (all be it with upgraded Valves), to drive some previous Kef Ref 201/2, which are hard to drive.

https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/cayin-valve-amps

Thanks very much. I dont kow what Cayin models are available, so will go and see, I saw only the smaller sizes in the shop window (it was a holiday here yesterday).

You are very welcome.

I have made it my mission (whether you like it or not *biggrin* ), to get your system to the point that you love every minute that you have it turned on.

I think Cayin is looking like a good choice. The more I look into them, the more impressed I am with the feedback on their build quality, VFM and SQ....and they may be priced better in Singapore.

If you have never heard a Valve amp, I think you will be very pleasantly surprised....so it's just getting one that can drive your speakers...which means using a knowlegable and helpful dealer.

A few years ago, I was involved with Acalex, who ended up driving a highend pair of SF standmounts (not an easy load), with a Jadis Valve amp. I had my doubts about its ability to drive them, but he loved the results (so the proof is in the listening).

Also, keep your eye out for Pathos as well.

Stay in touch....and remember, if your system is still too "aggressive", you can fine tune it further with a CDP with a Valve in its output stage...which will add another layer of "richness".

 

[nemo78]

Distortion can be wonderfully appealing. Valves do that in spades.

I would keep the Krell and get those Cayin tubes, switch between as the mood dictates ocassionally.

That's the idea

 

[nemo78]

CnoE, I wont be able to convince the KEF dealer to loan the speakers to the Cayin guy, I dont think so. Previously, I had carried a Naim amp to the Kef showrrom and connected it and auditioned the Naim, but I wont go that route with this 30kg monster. I'll just take a 'chance' and buy this.

 

[CnoEvil]

CnoE, I wont be able to convince the KEF dealer to loan the speakers to the Cayin guy, I dont think so. Previously, I had carried a Naim amp to the Kef showrrom and connected it and auditioned the Naim, but I wont go that route with this 30kg monster. I'll just take a 'chance' and buy this.

Can you agree to return it, if it doesn't work out (given the dealer says it will, so needs to be held to this).....though I think it will not happen.