Just my opinion BUT......

[Anonymous]

Haha... I'm afraid Eddiewood that parts of your reply are based on assumption and dont hold much water

Blacks - Always poor on an LCD compared to a CRT or plasma. Roll on OLED! HD may be available to those who own a PS3...but the majority (at the moment) do not own a PS3 or use the 'restricted' number of channels available through Sky HD. My views are NOT based on shop display TV's or delinquent 'mates' who have popped into the local Asda to buy a bargain basement lcd 'coz it's a fin telly'!! I have seen a number of premium sets from Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic and Samsung owned by friends who are perhaps as technologically aware as yourself !

I'm not saying that HD pictures aren't beautiful on an lcd set but for standard viewing I'm of the opinion that CRT has been shelved unecessarily early because the manufacturers and retailers are keen to promote lcd based on its size rather than its 'absolute' performance, with the rather elusive temptation of High Definition (even though most lcd's are just HD 'Ready'). I'm sure i'll be looking for a panel tv in the not too distant future...afterall my FD Trinitron is almost 8 years old. It'll be a Sony

 

[professorhat]

I understand your opinion, but new technology has to start somewhere. If no one had HD TVs, then there would be no point in introducing high definition broadcasts - people like Sky and Virgin won't provide it unless there is demand. So, basically we're in a transition period, but the number of HD broadcasts will increase as time goes on, as will the number of people who buy upscaling DVD players and (hopefully) either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD players depending on which format wins in the end. Not to mention also the gaming market. Remember also that the upscaling chips within the TVs will also improve as time goes on, making standard def look better on the higher resolution sets.

If we all stuck with CRT TVs though, this wouldn't happen and we'd stay with PAL / NTSC / standard DVD pictures indefinitely. As with all transitions, it'll be painful to start with, lots of people will complain and then it will gradually get better and better until people have forgotten what it was like to use standard def. No doubt at that point, early adopters like the people on this forum will be looking to the next leap forward in picture quality!

 

[Alec]

professorhat - i have concluded that i am incredibly flaky as, as loath as i am to admit it, your point about being in a painful transition period rings true - similar things happen with computer operating systems, afterall. but i do doubt whether we need the new tv technology at all, and, therefore, whether it wouldnt have been worth keeping CRTs around for another couple of years. An id apply the same logic to XP/Vista, but i digress.

 

[Alec]

im sorry but ive been gagging to say this for a couple of days, and i cant help meself. the fact that an hd tv is demonstrated to someone in this months mag with a dvd just about makes my point for me. it wasnt demoed with JUST TV. and this person didnt want to watch much hd either, if memory serves (scurries away to check said mag).

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="al7478"]im sorry but ive been gagging to say this for a couple of days, and i cant help meself. the fact that an hd tv is demonstrated to someone in this months mag with a dvd just about makes my point for me. it wasnt demoed with JUST TV. and this person didnt want to watch much hd either, if memory serves (scurries away to check said mag).[/quote]

Yup, this is true, a classic example of a bad shop trying to sell something without the customer's needs at heart! However, to not stray off topic, as I said, I do agree with you, the picture from standard def TV is generally worse on an HDTV (be it LCD or Plasma) compared to a CRT. There are a few lucky people with amazing HDTVs that are almost as good (mostly Pioneer owners!), but I don't think any of them are as good. Now, take into account the bigger size, and maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but since this isn't feasible (as there are no 50" CRTs I'm aware of to test with) we can't and this therefore can't be considered.

The main problem is the source i.e. standard def TV broadcasts. The easiest way to think of it is if you know computers. Think of a computer that can only display 640x480 resolution (which was fairly normal when Windows 95 first came out and effectively the same as NTSC - it's a few pixels out, but basically the same). This looked fine back in the day when computer monitors could only display that resolution as well. However, as computers progressed and were able to display higher and higher resolutions, the manufacturers started making monitors that could display this higher resolution. These days, if you put a computer outputting at 640x480 resolution through a modern monitor, it would look absolutely terrible because the modern monitor was not really designed to output at this resolution! It can, but that doesn't mean it was supposed to when they designed it!

The difference with TV and computers is, TV has to account for the lowest common denominator. So, if someone has a "Full HD" HDTV that can display a resolution of 1920x1080 or even an "HD Ready" HDTV that can display a resolution of (generally) 1366x768, but someone else only has a TV capable of displaying a resolution of 720x576 (basically the resolution required for PAL TV not taking into account progressive or interlaced displays), they have to broadcast to that level, otherwise, unless the lower resolution TV has a facility to take the higher resolution image and downscale it to fit its screen, it will not able to display it. Given that normal TVs were never designed to play the higher resolution image, this means, the broadcasters must display in the lowest resolution available (otherwise there would be a national outcry!).

My point is the same as it was before - we're in a transition phase. As and when TV broadcasts are made in a higher resolution, the problem will be solved. Unfortunately, until the vast majority of people have HDTV's capable of receiving these broadcasts, nothing can change, as (especially in UK with the TV license scheme) over the air TV must cater for the majority. During this time though (much like PC owners with the higher resolution displays), early adopters can find their own source of hi-def material through Blu-Ray / HD-DVD / Sky HD / PS3 / Xbox 360 / hooking up your PC or Mac / etc. etc.

The main point I'm making is, if manufacturers continued to make CRT TVs, and these were cheaper and looked better than HDTVs with standard TV, people would continue to buy them and we would never get anywhere. HD broadcasts would forever be the foray of "videophiles" (if such a word exists - if not, I own it and all its subsidiary rights!!). People have to be forced to move into the future, they won't do it of their own will (I don't mean individuals, but society as a whole).

Oh, and please don't confuse any of what I've said above as me thinking this is what the manufacturers are thinking (I'm really not that naive, I swear!). All they are doing is cutting costs by having one production line for certain components etc. etc. and by cutting out CRTs, I'm sure that cuts out a lot of the R&D budget too, let alone manufacturing costs. It's just in this case, I think their cost cutting methods and my general belief match and that it's a good thing going forward!

 

[professorhat]

Wow! That's a long post. Maybe I should go to sleep...

 

[Alec]

professorhat - it wasnt a bad shop doing the demo...it was WHFS&V! Again, i follow you and agree your reasoning makes sense - im just not sure itd bother me (in fact i know it wouldnt) if hd did become the preserve of videophiles, but i appreciate that from a commercial point of view the industry probably needs something new, or sales will seize up! Just like, i guess, we need new music formats from time to time, or at least significant improvements in playback equipment, in order to keep selling hardware, otherwise business would plateau. Tho again, im not sure why i should care about that plateau, but thats because my economics theory is rather basic.

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="oeurf"]Haha... I'm afraid Eddiewood that parts of your reply are based on assumption and dont hold much water [/quote]

Sorry, had to just reply to this as well to point out injustices that I'm guessing Eddiewood considered weren't worthy of his response!

[quote user="oeurf"]Blacks - Always poor on an LCD compared to a CRT or plasma.[/quote]

Interesting comment considering Eddiewood, who owns an LCD display, just said in a previous post that blacks on his LCD were "jet black" and you are (from what I can gather from your posts) speaking from a view of someone who owns neither. I'm not sure how you can make the comment above objectively therefore.

[quote user="oeurf"]I have seen a number of premium sets from Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic and Samsung owned by friends who are perhaps as technologically aware as yourself ![/quote]

Hmmm "perhaps as technologically aware as yourself" - this comment is in no way based on assumption! Perhaps (and I dabble in uncertainties too!), Eddiewood is far more aware of the necessary knowledge to set up a TV correctly than your friends. This isn't something to be taken as an insult - many people set them up incorrectly, including myself until I got a THX Optimizer disk. Once I used that, I saw a massive difference in the picture quality both from DVDs and Blu-Ray discs.

Now please read my previous posts on why it could actually be a good thing people are being forced to buy HDTVs (in the long term) and see what you think.

Any non-assumption based answers are welcome!

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="al7478"]professorhat - it wasnt a bad shop doing the demo...it was WHFS&V![/quote]

Really? I was thinking of a post made a few days ago by a guy in Llandudno!

Anyway, my post is kind of irrespective of that!

 

[Alec]

its apretty important point tho imo - look in the mag - its the feature where they go to someones home and demo kit for them, depending on their needs. Sorry, i forget what the feature is called and i dont have the mag handy.

 

[professorhat]

I know the one you mean - it's a feature in "What Hi-Fi? Sound and Vision" magazine called "Reader Rescue". However, if you read my original (albeit long!) post I made this evening (this one!), you'll see I agree with you and whatever happened in WHFS&V magazine is irrelevant. In my opinion, standard def TV broadcasts don't look as good on HDTVs as they do on CRTs. Now read the rest and find out why I think HDTVs are a good thing in the long term, and why we just have to suffer slightly worse standard def broadcasts (assuming you have taken WHF&SV's advice, otherwise it may look a lot worse!) for a few more years!

 

[Alec]

Yes, professorhat, i replied to your lengthy post, and i agree - see my post of Thu, Feb 14 2008 3:41 AM. I'll shut up about the whfs&v thing now, except to say i think showing a dvd on a telly is a poor way to demo it. A good way to demo it would be with the appropriate kit, well calibrated, with a standard def normal tv show. I repeat, that is what they will mostly be used for, until theres far more (cheap or free, too) hd content available, across all tv service providers (because i would need a really good reason to move from sky to freeview - limited hd content aint enough - id rather stay sky+ and standard def, as they have the channels i want, regardless of definition) Anyway, if you see the post i refered to, you'll find i agree with you so far, pretty much. You've turned me around - easier said than done!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="professorhat"]

Sorry, had to just reply to this as well to point out injustices that I'm
guessing Eddiewood considered weren't worthy of his response!
[/quote]

I think we need to remember that this post is called 'Just my opinion...' !

[quote user="professorhat"][quote user="oeurf"]Blacks - Always poor on an LCD compared to a CRT or
plasma.[/quote]

Interesting comment considering Eddiewood, who owns an LCD display, just said
in a previous post that blacks on his LCD were "jet black" and you are (from
what I can gather from your posts) speaking from a view of someone who owns
neither. I'm not sure how you can make the comment above objectively
therefore.
[/quote]

Its well known that LCD sets are not as efficient at recreating blacks as CRT, OLED or plasma . Once again I refer to lcd's owned by friends (and before I have it levelled at me again that I don't own one and therefore i'm in no position to make a comparison, I have spent several hours/days watching them!)...the blacks 'in my opinion' are not as deep or true as those of a CRT.

[quote user="professorhat"]Eddiewood is far more aware of the necessary knowledge to set up a TV correctly
than your friends. This isn't something to be taken as an insult - many people
set them up incorrectly, including myself until I got a THX Optimizer disk.[/quote]

How can you make this statement??! Haha that really IS an 'assumption'!

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="oeurf"][quote user="professorhat"]Eddiewood is far more aware of the necessary knowledge to set up a TV correctly
than your friends. This isn't something to be taken as an insult - many people
set them up incorrectly, including myself until I got a THX Optimizer disk.[/quote]

How can you make this statement??! Haha that really IS an 'assumption'![/quote]

I was drunk! You did miss the Perhaps from my original post though i.e. [quote user="professorhat"]Perhaps ... Eddiewood is far more aware...[/quote] etc. which doesn't make it seem quite as outrageous a statement as it is above!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="kitkat"]I cannot help thinking that the old trusted crt tv was retired far too early with all the problems you read about lcd's and plasma's I will stck to my Panasonic Quintrix it still beats the picture you get from the best lcd's.[/quote]

Hello Kitkat, a few weeks back I would have disagreed with you about this but having had 3 Panasonic lcd's all with the same fault and now replaced with a Sony lcd that is OK but not as good as my old Panasonic Quintrix SR 100hz I have to say to you that you have a very very good point, I really wish I had kept my old tv as you will know from yours these are one if not the best crt tv ever made with a picture that puts any new lcd or plasma in the shade I know I will have people on here screaming at me now but unless you have had one of these crt tv's with a good cable / feed you will never know just how good thay can be, we are forced now to buy either a lcd or plasma but why when they are still a second class picture and now I find out that the Japan people can still buy a new crt tv over there and lets face it the Japan people would only buy them if they are good and a better option to lcd / plasma its the same old story the british consumer ends up with the rubbish

PS that is one hell of a gorgeous cat, can I take him home

 

[Alec]

musicgirl, one very pertinent point you hint at in your post is that we have to spend so much more (money and time and effort) getting lcds/plasmas to look good with standard def - yet the "leads n stuff" i use with my panny crt are all very cheap n cheerful, and ive no grumbles with the picture.

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="musicgirl"]I know I will have people on here screaming at me now[/quote]

I promise I won't scream at you (I'm really very nice!). I also have a Panasonic Quintrix CRT TV, it sits next to my Panasonic plasma. When fed with Freeview pictures, the picture on the CRT TV is better, I agree (part of the reason being it's only 32" instead of 42"). However, if I feed my PS3 or Xbox 360 into both, I can assure you, the Plasma picture is far superior

This is the point most people who are disagreeing are trying to make - it's a transition phase while the UK moves to HD broadcasts that picture quality is suffering on the new sets as they're not designed for these signals, they're designed for better signals. It's the hi-fi equivalent of running an Oasis CD (god help us) through a really good hi-fi system which shows up the horrendous production values as opposed to a cheap and cheerful system which hides these, thus the CD actually sounds better on a cheap and cheerful system (to an Oasis fan anyway).

So, for the moment, the TV picture is a bit worse depending on what HDTV you have, but once we've switched and more HD broadcasts are made, it will look better.

Ironically, in Japan, where you can still buy CRTs, HD broadcasts are fairly common!

 

[Anonymous]

I totally agree. Stick with your CRT until it falls to bits.

Im thinking of forming a "Ive just shelled out a lot of money on a new telly to get a worse picture" club, any body want to join.

 

[professorhat]

I will also say though, watching SD through my plasma is only slightly off picture wise from my Quintrix set. I regularly watch MOTD through my plasma and it's fine. If it's "unwatchable", I'd say something is wrong with the TV

 

[kitkat]

[quote user="musicgirl"]
[quote user="kitkat"]I cannot help thinking that the old trusted crt tv was retired far too early with all the problems you read about lcd's and plasma's I will stck to my Panasonic Quintrix it still beats the picture you get from the best lcd's.[/quote]

Hello Kitkat, a few weeks back I would have disagreed with you about this but having had 3 Panasonic lcd's all with the same fault and now replaced with a Sony lcd that is OK but not as good as my old Panasonic Quintrix SR 100hz I have to say to you that you have a very very good point, I really wish I had kept my old tv as you will know from yours these are one if not the best crt tv ever made with a picture that puts any new lcd or plasma in the shade I know I will have people on here screaming at me now but unless you have had one of these crt tv's with a good cable / feed you will never know just how good thay can be, we are forced now to buy either a lcd or plasma but why when they are still a second class picture and now I find out that the Japan people can still buy a new crt tv over there and lets face it the Japan people would only buy them if they are good and a better option to lcd / plasma its the same old story the british consumer ends up with the rubbish

PS that is one hell of a gorgeous cat, can I take him home

[/quote]

No you cannot take my cat home with you, not for ALL the hi-fi's and tv's in the world he is priceless.

 

[kitkat]

Well I really started something with this topic and there has been some excellent views but one thing remains I stick by 100% what I said, I am not saying that my old crt would beat a new Pioneer or Panasonic plasma that is setup correctly and fed a good hd signal with the right cables etc but it would beat the same tv with sd and I think it would put lcd's to shame the problem is most of us can only watch in sd right now so where is the choice for that comsumer who whats a good picture from their freeview box and dvd player until hd becomes the norm, if Panasonic still made the crt I would go and buy one today because I want to buy a new tv, my old tv is 8yrs old it is only 28" and 50hz so the picture flickers yet even with all that I am not going to go out and buy a new lcd or plasma because I know how poor the picture will be compared to my crt with sd so the only choice I have is to source a newer bigger crt on sites like ebay and I believe lots of other people feel the same.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="kitkat"]Well I really started something with this topic and there has been some excellent views but one thing remains I stick by 100% what I said, I am not saying that my old crt would beat a new Pioneer or Panasonic plasma that is setup correctly and fed a good hd signal with the right cables etc but it would beat the same tv with sd and I think it would put lcd's to shame the problem is most of us can only watch in sd right now so where is the choice for that comsumer who whats a good picture from their freeview box and dvd player until hd becomes the norm, if Panasonic still made the crt I would go and buy one today because I want to buy a new tv, my old tv is 8yrs old it is only 28" and 50hz so the picture flickers yet even with all that I am not going to go out and buy a new lcd or plasma because I know how poor the picture will be compared to my crt with sd so the only choice I have is to source a newer bigger crt on sites like ebay and I believe lots of other people feel the same.[/quote]

Well, I agree with you KitKat, and I know many others agree.

It is a bit like the retirement of Concorde. 1950s technology that has yet to be bettered. It now takes longer to cross the Atlantic than it did 30 years ago, and they say that's progress. If you have an old CRT stick with it until it packs up.

Maybe I will go on e-bay and buy up all the CRT TV's and store them in a warehouse, then sell them back to people in 2-3 years time when they get fed up paying a fortune to watch decent quality pictures.

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="al7478"]I'll shut up about the whfs&v thing now, except to say i think showing a dvd on a telly is a poor way to demo it. A good way to demo it would be with the appropriate kit, well calibrated, with a standard def normal tv show. [/quote]

Which is precisely what was done - both for this Reader Rescue and of course for every test we do. It's just far easier to demonstrate the 'before and after' effect of kit with a movie someone has watched a lot of times than it is to judge whether Cash in the Attic or somesuch is better or worse.

Though of course standard Freeview TV tests - like checking what the scrolling news bar on the news channels looks like (smooth or jagged movement) and checking colours and digital noise on the lower bit-rate channels are also a necessity. And you'll notice mentions of them cropping up in our test copy regularly.

But when we do Rescues, the readers always want to know how their favourite discs are going to look and sound...

 

[Anonymous]

Altough I am having a problem with clouding, I can honestly say that the picture (and sound) quality on my Panasonic 32LXD700 is much, much better than on my 28" CRT and it was really good.

I was afraid of taking the plunge into buying an LCD TV as I read of so many people saying it wasn't nearly as good as CRT.

I am so glad I did now as often, on a good quality transmission, the picture quality is breathtaking.

 

[professorhat]

Well, it seems fair to say, some people think the picture from their LCD / Plasma is worse than CRT and others think it is as good or better. And Very Annoyed has gone on a crusade against new TVs because he had a bad experience buying online with Dixons.

I think therefore we can say it's a matter of opinion and this topic is done now, can't we? Basically, the advice to new buyers is the same advice most forum members give most people - try before you buy!