Surprising that your July Dac review didn't include two well-regarded UK models, the Beresford Bushmaster TC-7530DC and John Kenny's new Ciunas. Or even France's Micromega MyDac, given that *every* review by other audio journalists/magazines has all but explicitly contradicted What Hi-Fi's earlier findings.
July DAC review
- Thread starter highstream
- Start date
chebby
Well-known member
Overdose
Well-known member
Reviews are entirely subjective and relevant only to the reviewer, unless the reviewer has bothered to conduct any meaningful testing of the equipment on offer.
That aside, any magazine is going to have a finite ability to test a selection of DACs for a variety of reasons, not least of which is time.
That aside, any magazine is going to have a finite ability to test a selection of DACs for a variety of reasons, not least of which is time.
"Reviews are entirely subjective and relevant only to the reviewer, unless the reviewer has bothered to conduct any meaningful testing of the equipment on offer"
Ermm......surely a group review of DAC's is, by definition, meaningful testing of the equipment?
Or do you mean measurement? If so then we perhaps disagree, in that I believe measurements are useful but don't tell the whole story, because we don't know all the factors that affect sound quality so don't meaure them all. If indeed they are all measurable; psychological factors, including how we perceive things, are probably relevant (as is which side of the bed we got out that particular day!)
Back to the main topic - there will always be equipment that get's left out of a test for a variety of reasons. I agree the Beresford would have been a useful one to include. I have to say I hadn't heard of the Ciunas before though, and I'm pretty up to speed usually (maybe I'm getting old)
Ermm......surely a group review of DAC's is, by definition, meaningful testing of the equipment?
Or do you mean measurement? If so then we perhaps disagree, in that I believe measurements are useful but don't tell the whole story, because we don't know all the factors that affect sound quality so don't meaure them all. If indeed they are all measurable; psychological factors, including how we perceive things, are probably relevant (as is which side of the bed we got out that particular day!)
Back to the main topic - there will always be equipment that get's left out of a test for a variety of reasons. I agree the Beresford would have been a useful one to include. I have to say I hadn't heard of the Ciunas before though, and I'm pretty up to speed usually (maybe I'm getting old)
Overdose
Well-known member
philipjohnwright said:
No, I don't mean measurements, I mean testing. Testing is conducted to determine measurement and a product that measures as having less audible distortion than another and has a better frequency response is likely to sound better.
Remember this "All that is audible is measurable, but not all that is measurable is audible".
Your statement highlighted, just reinforces the pointlessness of subjective reviews. Particulary when we are asked to consider how the reviewer is feeling that day amongst a whole raft of other intangible factors.
John Duncan
Well-known member
Overdose
Well-known member
John Duncan
Well-known member
Overdose said:
Just pointing you (quite helpfully, I thought) at some pointless subjective reviews.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
highstream said:
Same old chestnut.
As Chebby suggests WHFI rely on manufacturers to submit their latest models. If they don't WHFI can only test the models they may have in stock (they keep certain brands as reference) or hope the makers come forward.
Not casting aspersions but you can't review something if it doesn't exist...
Overdose
Well-known member
John Duncan said:
They're not usually something I indulge in or indeed am swayed by, but thanks anyway.
Yes I agree that the July DAC test is fundamentally flawed without the inclusion of the Beresford Bushmaster.
Would have been really interesting to see how the £185 Bushmaster stacks up against the likes of the Rega DAC and Audiolab M-DAC. The Regas and Audiolabs of this world of course have a sizeable Dealer Margin built into their pricing. It would be nice to confirm that the Direct Sold Bushmaster with no Dealer Margin does in fact sound every bit as good as the perenial Rega and Audiolab favourites.
Would have been really interesting to see how the £185 Bushmaster stacks up against the likes of the Rega DAC and Audiolab M-DAC. The Regas and Audiolabs of this world of course have a sizeable Dealer Margin built into their pricing. It would be nice to confirm that the Direct Sold Bushmaster with no Dealer Margin does in fact sound every bit as good as the perenial Rega and Audiolab favourites.
Al ears
Well-known member
Reviews that lack one persons particular favourite are bound to happen.
All reviews are very subjective and to say July's review was flawed is just rot.
If you really must read someone elses thoughts on a particular DAC then that is fine as I am sure you can find it elsewhere on the web or other publications. There is, however, no point in asking WHFSAV to review something that they are not given access to.
If you are really interested in a particular DAC then I guess the best thing to do is to go and audition it yourself.
All reviews are very subjective and to say July's review was flawed is just rot.
If you really must read someone elses thoughts on a particular DAC then that is fine as I am sure you can find it elsewhere on the web or other publications. There is, however, no point in asking WHFSAV to review something that they are not given access to.
If you are really interested in a particular DAC then I guess the best thing to do is to go and audition it yourself.
Alears said:Reviews that lack one persons particular favourite are bound to happen.
All reviews are very subjective and to say July's review was flawed is just rot.
If you really must read someone elses thoughts on a particular DAC then that is fine as I am sure you can find it elsewhere on the web or other publications. There is, however, no point in asking WHFSAV to review something that they are not given access to.
If you are really interested in a particular DAC then I guess the best thing to do is to go and audition it yourself.
...the Beresford Bushmaster is not just my favourite DAC (if you read the thread at least 3 people have chimed in saying it would have been nice to have included the Bushmaster).
In fact, I auditioned the Bushmaster against the Rega and the Audiolab - and decided that I prefered the Bushmaster. The point I am making is that it would be nice if Beresford could be included in these magazine reviews so they get more credit for what is an outstanding product IMHO.
I keep seeing this argument about only reviewing stuff that is provided for review. However, in my opinion the magazine should buy in products that deserve to be in the line up if any are obviously missing. At the end of the day they are suppose to be providing a fair assessment of what is currently available to buy. It often seems to me that the products reviewed reflect more on the efficiency of the company's marketing department than the technical quality of the products.
Also in other areas of the reviewing world we get fair comparisons (eg a £4 Lidl Wine reviewed as better than a £20 bottle from Waitrose etc) but in Hi-Fi reviewing - all too often - equipment only seems to be allowed to be better if it is roughly at the same price point as it's competitors.
As someone who is always keen to avoid wasting money - I would love to see a comparison of the Bushmaster against some of the bigger manufacturers.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
theadmans said:
The review flips over several pages ranging from budget to hi-end. It's impossible to review every dac at once. If the mag was called 'What Dac? Sound and Vision' your request would be valid.
For one reason or another, many brands in a multitude of catagories get omitted. C'est la vie.
expat_mike
Well-known member
Hello Highstream,
The Micromega MyDac was reviewed as part of the May DAC supertest, in the French edition of WHFSV.
The HRT microstreamer, Arcam rDAC and Meridian Explorer DAC all scored 5 stars, but the MyDAC was one of a group of four DACs that scored only 4 stars. So the MyDAC doesn't even win the supertest in France.
I find it easy to look at the pictures, and the no. of stars, but reading the reviews in French, is still a slow process, but good practice.
The Micromega MyDac was reviewed as part of the May DAC supertest, in the French edition of WHFSV.
The HRT microstreamer, Arcam rDAC and Meridian Explorer DAC all scored 5 stars, but the MyDAC was one of a group of four DACs that scored only 4 stars. So the MyDAC doesn't even win the supertest in France.
I find it easy to look at the pictures, and the no. of stars, but reading the reviews in French, is still a slow process, but good practice.
scorps
Well-known member
totally agree wi alears. i've been reading this magazine for the best part of 30 yrs and regard as does my brother as a bit of a bible they cant review all the available gear at anytime or would take them days to come to a decision of kit that they preferred. At the end of the day its all down to our own ears if u go solely off a comment in a mag then u not gonna get the best out of ur stereo, it has to be right for you but whathifi has helped me narrow down what i need to listen to so many times through my upgrades, starting with a technics amp and cd player of irrelevant numbers through mi pioneer a400,marants cd52 celestion 9s(which got a poor score in what hifi ,but sounded marvelous to me) to what i have now. No doubt in the near future u will see a smaller test which includes the beresford i personally have a beresford caimen dac at present that been gatorized wi external power suply n is marvelous. rest of system is sooloos control 15, densen beat preamp, bryston 8b-st run in bridged mode n pair of pmc pb1s not all group test winners but sound marvelous together.
BigH
Well-known member
Just come across the ODAC which said to be as good as the Benchmark but is only £99, it is usb only though. I would also have liked to see the new John Kenny tested and seen good reviews, some say it is as good as Benchmark and Metrum Octave Mk2, yet another one not reviewed? Why do mags just rely on man. to send in their gear they spend enough on room treatments why not spend a bit more on gear?
BigH said:
Hi BigH,
There's loads of excellent sounding DAC's from overseas, but many are not CE/RoHS compliant. Maybe they offer excellent value and equal the performance of a Benchmark, Metrum and Beresford etc., which I doubt, but it's not legal to sell these products commercially into the E.U. Therefore, magazines may well be taking a level of responsibility in not promoting or reviewing these products.
Anyway, shouldn't we be supporting trusted / still relatively 'good value' brands?
Peter
gingersmarty
Well-known member
Hi all,
Although agreeing that any review is subjective and all products by definition cannot be reviewed, imagine a world
where there were no reviews. The spotty lad in curry's would have a field day. At least they provide a starting point.
Although agreeing that any review is subjective and all products by definition cannot be reviewed, imagine a world
where there were no reviews. The spotty lad in curry's would have a field day. At least they provide a starting point.
BigH
Well-known member
igloo audio said:
Well all the ones I have mentioned are as far as I know. The ODAC is sold in the UK, sold as E-DAC, it has been reviewed by HiFi Choice and HiFi World and has 5 stars from both. The John Kennys are made in Ireland so thats in Europe as far as I know. So I don't think your commments are correct. If you read other hifi forums which have far more coverage and users reviews than here you will see the latest John Kennys are among the top sub £1,000 DACS. Not sure about the E-DAC as that seems fairly new and unknown.
Indeed, they have Euros and we don't so I will say they're more European than we areBigH said:
.I have the E-DAC and the EHP-O2D from Epiphany Acoustics and they are fantastic value for money. Equal to the Benchmark sounds like a stretch though, I have not heard the Benchmark, but I've just had the Benchmark DAC2 HGC for a month and it was pretty impressive. At £1700+ it's still rather overpriced for my liking, but it was a very neat machine considering it's inputs and features..
BigH said:
Hi BigH,
I do not know about these products specifically, but you can easily check whether they have the "CE" mark or not.
It's just a general trend we are seeing with customers making price/performance comparisons using non CE/RoHS products (forums, blogs etc), especially cheap overseas or OEM products modified in the U.K. Not to mention wanting to part-ex against compliant products, which is not possible for a dealer. Always best to check so you know exactly what you're buying, especially if a very costly item.
Peter
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