Any potential difference in sound quality to be expected?
Will be running from my laptop into a DACmagic.
Thanks for all opinions and regards.
Will be running from my laptop into a DACmagic.
Thanks for all opinions and regards.
iTunes & Apple lossless vs. FB2000 & FLAC
- Thread starter admin_exported
- Start date
Hi,
Assuming your laptop is pc, not mac, then Foobar 2k running FLAC or Apple Lossless(it'll run anything) will sound better than iTunes running Apple Losslesss. Far as i know, it's mainly because of Foobars ability to utilise the WASAPI plugin, which lets your music file reach your laptops usb/optical output 'uncorrupted'.
This difference in sq between Foobar/iTunes has been one of the most suprising things for me, since i started with lossless/computer audio.
Have a look at 'PJPro's posts on this subject; they're brilliant!
Assuming your laptop is pc, not mac, then Foobar 2k running FLAC or Apple Lossless(it'll run anything) will sound better than iTunes running Apple Losslesss. Far as i know, it's mainly because of Foobars ability to utilise the WASAPI plugin, which lets your music file reach your laptops usb/optical output 'uncorrupted'.
This difference in sq between Foobar/iTunes has been one of the most suprising things for me, since i started with lossless/computer audio.
Have a look at 'PJPro's posts on this subject; they're brilliant!
Incidently, i actually use Foobar 2k and iTunes. I believe that iTunes is a brilliant place for my lossless files to 'live', as it's a straightfoward place to add album art, edit album/artist details, etc. And to sync my beloved iPod Touch!
Once i'd downloaded and set up Foobar, i simply 'pointed' it at my nicely organised iTunes library. Best of both worlds! But you can make Foobar do everything that iTunes does and more, if you're not too lazy to learn, like me!
Happy new year, all!
Once i'd downloaded and set up Foobar, i simply 'pointed' it at my nicely organised iTunes library. Best of both worlds! But you can make Foobar do everything that iTunes does and more, if you're not too lazy to learn, like me!
Happy new year, all!
Thanks Davy
Interesting hybrid idea that I will investigate.
BTW it's a PC laptop running Win 7; does it still need WASAPI which IIRC was designed for Win XP ? I seem to recall reading that Vista onwards use a different audio layer handling.
Regards and thanks.
Interesting hybrid idea that I will investigate.
BTW it's a PC laptop running Win 7; does it still need WASAPI which IIRC was designed for Win XP ? I seem to recall reading that Vista onwards use a different audio layer handling.
Regards and thanks.
Hey there,
i'm fairly certain WASAPI works with Windows 7(i use Vista Home Premium). Amazingly, there are alternative 'plug-ins' to WASAPI, compatible with Foobar, such as Kernel Streaming - and they sound different to WASAPI. Go figure...
i'm fairly certain WASAPI works with Windows 7(i use Vista Home Premium). Amazingly, there are alternative 'plug-ins' to WASAPI, compatible with Foobar, such as Kernel Streaming - and they sound different to WASAPI. Go figure...
Thanks again Davy
I've placed the wasapi.dl into the FB2K components folder.
Do I need to configure anything in the FB2K program options to enable its use?
I've placed the wasapi.dl into the FB2K components folder.
Do I need to configure anything in the FB2K program options to enable its use?
Firstly, if you go to file, preferences, components, you'll see a list of installed plug ins, including hopefully(!), foo_out_wasapi. Then, just go to preferences, playback sub menu, then output. At top of this menu should be output device drop down menu. from that list, there should be something like WASAPI: Dacmagic. Of course, select that!
Also, on output screen, you have a choice to select 16 bit, 24 bit, etc. I think it's recommended you set this to highest capabilities of your dac, so in your case, 24 bit. (for my dac, 16 bit, seriously considering a Dacmagic this year)
I read somewhere that it's beneficial to have the dither (slow) box ticked and the buffer length set to around 1000 ms. So i do.
Are you using some kind of lossless file format, by the way??
Hope any of this helps!
Also, on output screen, you have a choice to select 16 bit, 24 bit, etc. I think it's recommended you set this to highest capabilities of your dac, so in your case, 24 bit. (for my dac, 16 bit, seriously considering a Dacmagic this year)
I read somewhere that it's beneficial to have the dither (slow) box ticked and the buffer length set to around 1000 ms. So i do.
Are you using some kind of lossless file format, by the way??
Hope any of this helps!
Roger Wilco - that's got it
Running FLAC files ripped using Exact Audio Copy.
Now all I need is a FB2K skin with a large font size so I can use my TV and a wireless keyboard as the GUI.
And get album artwork functioning ...
Running FLAC files ripped using Exact Audio Copy.
Now all I need is a FB2K skin with a large font size so I can use my TV and a wireless keyboard as the GUI.
And get album artwork functioning ...
Interesting, there are a few things to consider here, I think.
If you take the position of the receiving DAC, it does not know, of course, who or what is sending the data. The only 3 things is 'sees', are the sample freq, the amplitude (depth) and the timing of the samples. So if WASAPI differs from something else, it must be one of these things, right? Assume a (ripped) redbook CD source of 44.1k/16bits in any lossless format. Sample rate appears to be a setting in WASAPI - as seen in the previous post - but also in some other drivers. I would be reluctant to set the computer to sample rate conversion rather than sending a bitperfect data stream to the DAC and let the dedicated hardware in the DAC take care of this (upsampling to 196k/24 is common to many DACs).
So the question I have here is: is computer sample rate conversion a benefit or should it be avoided? I've always tended to the latter.
Regarding the other two aspects, a similar argument can be made for 16>24bit conversion: shouldn't we leave this to the DAC?
I do assume here, of course, that the basic setting are comparable for the comparison being made, iTunes, foobar, compression etc: volume at 100%, equal balance, no sound effects/equilizer etc.
And from what I understand of how it works, I can not see that the driver would affect the result/SQ due to timing differences.
If you take the position of the receiving DAC, it does not know, of course, who or what is sending the data. The only 3 things is 'sees', are the sample freq, the amplitude (depth) and the timing of the samples. So if WASAPI differs from something else, it must be one of these things, right? Assume a (ripped) redbook CD source of 44.1k/16bits in any lossless format. Sample rate appears to be a setting in WASAPI - as seen in the previous post - but also in some other drivers. I would be reluctant to set the computer to sample rate conversion rather than sending a bitperfect data stream to the DAC and let the dedicated hardware in the DAC take care of this (upsampling to 196k/24 is common to many DACs).
So the question I have here is: is computer sample rate conversion a benefit or should it be avoided? I've always tended to the latter.
Regarding the other two aspects, a similar argument can be made for 16>24bit conversion: shouldn't we leave this to the DAC?
I do assume here, of course, that the basic setting are comparable for the comparison being made, iTunes, foobar, compression etc: volume at 100%, equal balance, no sound effects/equilizer etc.
And from what I understand of how it works, I can not see that the driver would affect the result/SQ due to timing differences.
davydmx: Have a look at 'PJPro's posts on this subject; they're brilliant!
Agreed, but unfortunately I'm not! Got Foobar2000 to play bit perfect audio and it sounds great, but I can't get the bloody UI how I want it, far too complicated!
I just want bit perfect playback of my WMA Lossless 16/44.1 & 24/96 audio collection with WMP (32 bit) and Media Center using Windows 7 x64, apparently available with ReClock, but I can't get that to work either!
Agreed, but unfortunately I'm not! Got Foobar2000 to play bit perfect audio and it sounds great, but I can't get the bloody UI how I want it, far too complicated!
I just want bit perfect playback of my WMA Lossless 16/44.1 & 24/96 audio collection with WMP (32 bit) and Media Center using Windows 7 x64, apparently available with ReClock, but I can't get that to work either!
pete321:davydmx: Have a look at 'PJPro's posts on this subject; they're brilliant!
Agreed, but unfortunately I'm not! Got Foobar2000 to play bit perfect audio and it sounds great, but I can't get the bloody UI how I want it, far too complicated!
I just want bit perfect playback of my WMA Lossless 16/44.1 & 24/96 audio collection with WMP (32 bit) and Media Center using Windows 7 x64, apparently available with ReClock, but I can't get that to work either!
I do provide a short primer that should get you going here. I can also provide specific help (via the primer thread) as required.
Agreed, but unfortunately I'm not! Got Foobar2000 to play bit perfect audio and it sounds great, but I can't get the bloody UI how I want it, far too complicated!
I just want bit perfect playback of my WMA Lossless 16/44.1 & 24/96 audio collection with WMP (32 bit) and Media Center using Windows 7 x64, apparently available with ReClock, but I can't get that to work either!
I do provide a short primer that should get you going here. I can also provide specific help (via the primer thread) as required.
PJPro:I do provide a short primer that should get you going here. I can also provide specific help (via the primer thread) as required.
Hi PJ, Thanks, but I tried that one the other day but couldn't get it to work. Do you know whether Winamp will give bit perfect playback with ReClock? At least Winamp comes with a decent UI already to use.
Hi PJ, Thanks, but I tried that one the other day but couldn't get it to work. Do you know whether Winamp will give bit perfect playback with ReClock? At least Winamp comes with a decent UI already to use.
What was the problem with the primer?
Very little experience with Winamp, so I can't answer your question. Sorry.
Very little experience with Winamp, so I can't answer your question. Sorry.
Got stuck with the album art, started to follow your instructions, got to adding the album art and then realised a large majority of my art is embedded with no folder copy. Although it looks smart, the chronoflow wasn't really what I wanted, I guess I've got too used to WMP layout.
There's no doubt that music sounds more open and detailed using the WASAPI plugin in Foobar to bypass Windows interference, it gives a much bigger soundstage. Why Microsoft don't get that beats me. Although don't you have to still select 16 or 24 bit depending on what you're playing back in Foobar? I could see via my DacMagic display that it automatically output 44.1 or 96kHz depending on the source file, but the preferences seem to require you to select either 16 or 24 bit, rather than just ouput the source bitrate automatically?
There's no doubt that music sounds more open and detailed using the WASAPI plugin in Foobar to bypass Windows interference, it gives a much bigger soundstage. Why Microsoft don't get that beats me. Although don't you have to still select 16 or 24 bit depending on what you're playing back in Foobar? I could see via my DacMagic display that it automatically output 44.1 or 96kHz depending on the source file, but the preferences seem to require you to select either 16 or 24 bit, rather than just ouput the source bitrate automatically?
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
pete321:davydmx: Have a look at 'PJPro's posts on this subject; they're brilliant!
Agreed, but unfortunately I'm not! Got Foobar2000 to play bit perfect audio and it sounds great, but I can't get the bloody UI how I want it, far too complicated!
I just want bit perfect playback of my WMA Lossless 16/44.1 & 24/96 audio collection with WMP (32 bit) and Media Center using Windows 7 x64, apparently available with ReClock, but I can't get that to work either!
I read about an ASIO plugin for WMP the other day. I'm in the same predicament I think; I have to use WMP (WMA Lossless) as I use a WM extender. My Dacmagic shows that even when I'm playing 24bit files, 48khz is lit. I'm no expert but thought that if the WMP was bitperfect, this would not happen. Anyway, I downloaded the plugin http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/files/ but I got an error code come up when I tried to play a song. I have no idea if this plugin, once I've got it to work, will sort my problem out, but it could help you.
Agreed, but unfortunately I'm not! Got Foobar2000 to play bit perfect audio and it sounds great, but I can't get the bloody UI how I want it, far too complicated!
I just want bit perfect playback of my WMA Lossless 16/44.1 & 24/96 audio collection with WMP (32 bit) and Media Center using Windows 7 x64, apparently available with ReClock, but I can't get that to work either!
I read about an ASIO plugin for WMP the other day. I'm in the same predicament I think; I have to use WMP (WMA Lossless) as I use a WM extender. My Dacmagic shows that even when I'm playing 24bit files, 48khz is lit. I'm no expert but thought that if the WMP was bitperfect, this would not happen. Anyway, I downloaded the plugin http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/files/ but I got an error code come up when I tried to play a song. I have no idea if this plugin, once I've got it to work, will sort my problem out, but it could help you.
Gerrardasnails:I read about an ASIO plugin for WMP the other day. I'm in the same predicament I think; I have to use WMP (WMA Lossless) as I use a WM extender. My Dacmagic shows that even when I'm playing 24bit files, 48khz is lit. I'm no expert but thought that if the WMP was bitperfect, this would not happen. Anyway, I downloaded the plugin http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/files/ but I got an error code come up when I tried to play a song. I have no idea if this plugin, once I've got it to work, will sort my problem out, but it could help you.
Didn't we come to the conclusion that it was WM Extender that was the culprit in your system?
You can adjust the output signal in Windows to 16bit 44.1kHz (albeit the signal still goes through some sort of unwanted processing), but the WM Extender then upsamples the signal to 48kHz? My PC sits in my hifi rack so I can get my PC to send a 16bit/44kHz signal to my DacMagic, but it still goes through WIndows processing. I can get round the problem by using Foobar2000 with WASAPI plugin, the difference is quite noticeable. But that's no good if I want to use WMP and Media Center. I've read about the ASIO, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI, I get the impression it's the latter that's needed for Vista or Windows 7 and I know it works on my PC with Foobar. I read that Slysoft's ReClock can work on a 32bit application such as the WMP 32bit, but I can't get it to work. I know it's not my Asus soundcard, because I can get bit perfect with Foobar, but you've got to be a computer programmer to get the user interface useable! It's all very frustrating once you've had a taste of what your WMA Lossless music can sound like!
Didn't we come to the conclusion that it was WM Extender that was the culprit in your system?
You can adjust the output signal in Windows to 16bit 44.1kHz (albeit the signal still goes through some sort of unwanted processing), but the WM Extender then upsamples the signal to 48kHz? My PC sits in my hifi rack so I can get my PC to send a 16bit/44kHz signal to my DacMagic, but it still goes through WIndows processing. I can get round the problem by using Foobar2000 with WASAPI plugin, the difference is quite noticeable. But that's no good if I want to use WMP and Media Center. I've read about the ASIO, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI, I get the impression it's the latter that's needed for Vista or Windows 7 and I know it works on my PC with Foobar. I read that Slysoft's ReClock can work on a 32bit application such as the WMP 32bit, but I can't get it to work. I know it's not my Asus soundcard, because I can get bit perfect with Foobar, but you've got to be a computer programmer to get the user interface useable! It's all very frustrating once you've had a taste of what your WMA Lossless music can sound like!
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
pete321:
Gerrardasnails:I read about an ASIO plugin for WMP the other day. I'm in the same predicament I think; I have to use WMP (WMA Lossless) as I use a WM extender. My Dacmagic shows that even when I'm playing 24bit files, 48khz is lit. I'm no expert but thought that if the WMP was bitperfect, this would not happen. Anyway, I downloaded the plugin http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/files/ but I got an error code come up when I tried to play a song. I have no idea if this plugin, once I've got it to work, will sort my problem out, but it could help you.
Didn't we come to the conclusion that it was WM Extender that was the culprit in your system?
You can adjust the output signal in Windows to 16bit 44.1kHz (albeit the signal still goes through some sort of unwanted processing), but the WM Extender then upsamples the signal to 48kHz? My PC sits in my hifi rack so I can get my PC to send a 16bit/44kHz signal to my DacMagic, but it still goes through WIndows processing. I can get round the problem by using Foobar2000 with WASAPI plugin, the difference is quite noticeable. But that's no good if I want to use WMP and Media Center. I've read about the ASIO, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI, I get the impression it's the latter that's needed for Vista or Windows 7 and I know it works on my PC with Foobar. I read that Slysoft's ReClock can work on a 32bit application such as the WMP 32bit, but I can't get it to work. I know it's not my Asus soundcard, because I can get bit perfect with Foobar, but you've got to be a computer programmer to get the user interface useable! It's all very frustrating once you've had a taste of what your WMA Lossless music can sound like!
you are probably right but because I can't get any real audio info from the extender manual, and it's free, I'm just interested in trying to get any extra out of my system. I'm very happy with the sound I get but we are all interested in improvements.
Gerrardasnails:I read about an ASIO plugin for WMP the other day. I'm in the same predicament I think; I have to use WMP (WMA Lossless) as I use a WM extender. My Dacmagic shows that even when I'm playing 24bit files, 48khz is lit. I'm no expert but thought that if the WMP was bitperfect, this would not happen. Anyway, I downloaded the plugin http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/files/ but I got an error code come up when I tried to play a song. I have no idea if this plugin, once I've got it to work, will sort my problem out, but it could help you.
Didn't we come to the conclusion that it was WM Extender that was the culprit in your system?
You can adjust the output signal in Windows to 16bit 44.1kHz (albeit the signal still goes through some sort of unwanted processing), but the WM Extender then upsamples the signal to 48kHz? My PC sits in my hifi rack so I can get my PC to send a 16bit/44kHz signal to my DacMagic, but it still goes through WIndows processing. I can get round the problem by using Foobar2000 with WASAPI plugin, the difference is quite noticeable. But that's no good if I want to use WMP and Media Center. I've read about the ASIO, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI, I get the impression it's the latter that's needed for Vista or Windows 7 and I know it works on my PC with Foobar. I read that Slysoft's ReClock can work on a 32bit application such as the WMP 32bit, but I can't get it to work. I know it's not my Asus soundcard, because I can get bit perfect with Foobar, but you've got to be a computer programmer to get the user interface useable! It's all very frustrating once you've had a taste of what your WMA Lossless music can sound like!
you are probably right but because I can't get any real audio info from the extender manual, and it's free, I'm just interested in trying to get any extra out of my system. I'm very happy with the sound I get but we are all interested in improvements.
pete321:
Got stuck with the album art, started to follow your instructions, got to adding the album art and then realised a large majority of my art is embedded with no folder copy. Although it looks smart, the chronoflow wasn't really what I wanted, I guess I've got too used to WMP layout.
.....
Are you aware that there are a number of preset configurartions for chronoflow including the slightly bizarre spirals?
Got stuck with the album art, started to follow your instructions, got to adding the album art and then realised a large majority of my art is embedded with no folder copy. Although it looks smart, the chronoflow wasn't really what I wanted, I guess I've got too used to WMP layout.
.....
Are you aware that there are a number of preset configurartions for chronoflow including the slightly bizarre spirals?
PJPro:Are you aware that there are a number of preset configurartions for chronoflow including the slightly bizarre spirals?
I know the possibilities are limitless if you know what you're doing, I've been fiddling around with this setup this morning, but it's not as user friendly as WMP unless I've done something wrong, probably the latter! How much do you charge for home visits?!
I know the possibilities are limitless if you know what you're doing, I've been fiddling around with this setup this morning, but it's not as user friendly as WMP unless I've done something wrong, probably the latter! How much do you charge for home visits?!
PJPro:Where do you live?
You're starting a rod for your own back there! Thanks, but I'm going to try and persevere with trying to get bit perfect with WMP/MCE. I'll be keeping an eye on the ReClock updates with my fingers crossed.
As I write, I'm listening bit perfect via FB2000 to a 24/96 WMA Lossless download from Linn of Highwire by Dawn Langstroth, sounds great.
You're starting a rod for your own back there! Thanks, but I'm going to try and persevere with trying to get bit perfect with WMP/MCE. I'll be keeping an eye on the ReClock updates with my fingers crossed.
As I write, I'm listening bit perfect via FB2000 to a 24/96 WMA Lossless download from Linn of Highwire by Dawn Langstroth, sounds great.
pete321:
PJPro:Where do you live?
You're starting a rod for your own back there! Thanks, but I'm going to try and persevere with trying to get bit perfect with WMP/MCE. I'll be keeping an eye on the ReClock updates with my fingers crossed.
As I write, I'm listening bit perfect via FB2000 to a 24/96 WMA Lossless download from Linn of Highwire by Dawn Langstroth, sounds great.
Alternatively, you could try and follow my primer and I can give you a hand when you get stuck. It can be tweaked to provide this...
...which is what I think you are after.
TBH, I rarely use the chronoflow front end myself......it's just bling. I mainly use the one above.
PJPro:Where do you live?
You're starting a rod for your own back there! Thanks, but I'm going to try and persevere with trying to get bit perfect with WMP/MCE. I'll be keeping an eye on the ReClock updates with my fingers crossed.
As I write, I'm listening bit perfect via FB2000 to a 24/96 WMA Lossless download from Linn of Highwire by Dawn Langstroth, sounds great.
Alternatively, you could try and follow my primer and I can give you a hand when you get stuck. It can be tweaked to provide this...
...which is what I think you are after.
TBH, I rarely use the chronoflow front end myself......it's just bling. I mainly use the one above.
PJPro:Alternatively, you could try and follow my primer and I can give you a hand when you get stuck. It can be tweaked to provide this... ...which is what I think you are after. TBH, I rarely use the chronoflow front end myself......it's just bling. I mainly use the one above.
That looks great, wouldn't have a clue how to get it like that though.
That looks great, wouldn't have a clue how to get it like that though.
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
pete321:
PJPro:Where do you live?
You're starting a rod for your own back there! Thanks, but I'm going to try and persevere with trying to get bit perfect with WMP/MCE. I'll be keeping an eye on the ReClock updates with my fingers crossed.
As I write, I'm listening bit perfect via FB2000 to a 24/96 WMA Lossless download from Linn of Highwire by Dawn Langstroth, sounds great.
have you tried the plugin I mentioned. It has made quite a few people happy with WMP playback.
PJPro:Where do you live?
You're starting a rod for your own back there! Thanks, but I'm going to try and persevere with trying to get bit perfect with WMP/MCE. I'll be keeping an eye on the ReClock updates with my fingers crossed.
As I write, I'm listening bit perfect via FB2000 to a 24/96 WMA Lossless download from Linn of Highwire by Dawn Langstroth, sounds great.
have you tried the plugin I mentioned. It has made quite a few people happy with WMP playback.
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