It's not the sub, it's flawed content

AJM1981

Well-known member
There have been topics around subs for 2.1 hifi systems. One can love or hate subwoofers for music and I am an active user who is pro sub.

But I would like to the devil's advocate here. I kind of understand why the best sub placed in the most ideal room conditions and finest tuning is often still problematic as in that there is no perfect setting for music.

I can't speak for the world. But I can speak at least for Europe where subs for music were never really a thing in homes 'for music' . This fact also meant that producers in certain areas and eras just didn't care about anything that went under the frequency monitoring radar.

When taking movies and modern series as a reference there seems to be an excellent uniform management production wise of these frequencies, that might also be the one and only reason why subs in home cinema are out of the question. If we would play movies for a weekend, we could turn the knob to alter the volume, but we would never really have to turn the knob because there would be too much fluctuation.

But in music.. when setting up a sub in a way that it sounds just about right track 1, let's say a live or recorded Jazz track with upright bass. It will sound completely in balance. Then letting things go, A random style track 2 would lack bass and track 3 is like a bulldozer in bass because track 3 was probably mixed just on small bookshelve monitors without a sub in mind and pumped the bass out to the max to make a fat sound on smaller speakers.

And that is why I kind of understand why really difficult to draw a line onto what the ideal setting is to get everything right. And also why an ideal middle is a kind of average speaker 'without' sub because the frequencies happen to be problematic.

Fortunately a few older and some modern recordings are produced with a sub or at least a sub in mind. But in my opinion the whole pro-sub and anti-sub in Hifi probably comes to the core in the content. A lot of tracks are in my opinion ready for a remaster for this reason.

Agree? / disagree? I wonder.
 
A lot of tracks are in my opinion ready for a remaster for this reason.

Imo a lot of two channel systems are ready for effectively aligned, calibrated and dialled in subwoofers to reproduce at least the bottom two octaves of 20Hz - 40hz and 40Hz - 80Hz and by doing so make the most profound difference to the overall performance of a system.

I believe realism requires power and even if the mains go down to 20Hz a subwoofer should still be incorporated because in my experience a subwoofer can inject power into and energise a system like no other component can.

No power, no depth. No depth, no body. No body, no soul to the sound.

A subwoofer is the most important component.

Btw, I am still at the store and the current store system is a Naim Audio ND5 XS2 > Denafrips GAIA DDC > Denafrips Termiator II DAC > ATC SCA2 > JL Audio CR-1 Active Subwoofer Crossover > Kinki Studio EX-M7 > Monitor Audio 5G Gold 300 > JL Audio Fathom f112 v2. System is crossed over at 90Hz. Listening to Naim Classical Radio and the system is sounding absolutely sublime.
 
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Deleted member 116933

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And how about the content?

Depends on the content as you allude to.
A lot of recordings where limited by there media and a lot by there intended playback systems of the time, Very few had speakers like we know them today . Big bass at home is a relatively new thing.

Out side of the obvious a lot recorded music still has no “bass” below 40hz. But said above subs still provide something.

TBH if a recording has sloppy bass it’s more to do with the production then any thing. Metallica are well know for crippling there recordings back in the day. The fashion of the time.

Then you have your artists that produce in there bedrooms, are they monitoring for all the frequencies, highly doubt it. But then some are are amazing productions some of the best music is made in hotel rooms
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
Depends on the content as you allude to.
A lot of recordings where limited by there media and a lot by there intended playback systems of the time, Very few had speakers like we know them today . Big bass at home is a relatively new thing.

Out side of the obvious a lot recorded music still has no “bass” below 40hz. But said above subs still provide something.

TBH if a recording has sloppy bass it’s more to do with the production then any thing. Metallica are well know for crippling there recordings back in the day. The fashion of the time.

Then you have your artists that produce in there bedrooms, are they monitoring for all the frequencies, highly doubt it. But then some are are amazing productions some of the best music is made in hotel rooms

Bass in general is a problematic thing that in retrospect, it would have been nice if there would be something like a protocol on how to master it through the ages.

There is this quite recent Jazz intepretation of Hancock's Cantaloupe Island by pianist Jeff Goldblum and it has amost a mammothic punch to it. I believe I just hear a combo of the upright bass and the kick drum. But the way it is recorded or mixed it almost sounds like a taiko drum, even without a sub. And it kind of kills the swing that this track is all about.

A little less in that region and the track would flow much more than it currently does.
 
Depends on the content as you allude to.
A lot of recordings where limited by there media and a lot by there intended playback systems of the time, Very few had speakers like we know them today . Big bass at home is a relatively new thing.

Out side of the obvious a lot recorded music still has no “bass” below 40hz. But said above subs still provide something.

TBH if a recording has sloppy bass it’s more to do with the production then any thing. Metallica are well know for crippling there recordings back in the day. The fashion of the time.

Then you have your artists that produce in there bedrooms, are they monitoring for all the frequencies, highly doubt it. But then some are are amazing productions some of the best music is made in hotel rooms
I would agree with the lack of frequency response below 40Hz on many recordings. Unlike home cinema where the sub is used for effects rather than to compliment the music in a stereo system adding a sub is a bit impractical. You have to set the subs crossover point so high that it negates the quality of the woofers in your main speakers. If you aren't using your main speakers to their full potential I see little financial reason to add a sub in the first place.
 
I listen to a fair bit of music with plenty going on under 40Hz, and although much of it is relatively modern, some of it goes back to the 80s. All seems intentionally well produced.

The mixing of music has always been as variable as the end user’s listening preferences, so if you’re going to set up a sub in your system, use music you know, and music you consider to sound correct/neutral. From there, you can tweak to give a good setting to cover most music, but whatever the settings, there will always be albums that sound bass heavy or bass light - you can’t avoid it - sub or no sub.

To add to this, the choice of subwoofer for music reproduction is very important. Most subs just don’t have the speed and transient response for convincing music reproduction, so it doesn’t matter how well they’re set up, they’re not going to sound ‘natural’. Most subs are designed to reach as deeply as possible, as loudly as possible, and present the potential buyer with some impressive numbers, although they won’t draw your attention to the numbers relating to distortion…
 

insider9

Well-known member
When you set up the sub right it is just that. Right! It's difficult to do but no track will sound worse because of it.

"Blaming" music after you've added a sub indicates to me you didn't set it up correctly. And no, let's not remaster everything we can because often it loses the very thing that drawn us to the album in the first place.
 
When you set up the sub right it is just that. Right! It's difficult to do but no track will sound worse because of it.

Indeed (y) The goal is to effectively align/calibrate/dial in a subwoofer so that the subwoofer integrates seamlessly with the mains and disappears into the soundstage with a deep, sharp, tight fisted, fast and powerful punchy sub bass. Get it right and a subwoofer can make the most profound difference to the overall performance of the system.

Btw, I am back at the store and listening to the current store system - Naim Audio ND5 XS2 > Denafrips GAIA DDC > Denafrips Termiator II DAC > ATC SCA2 > JL Audio CR-1 Active Subwoofer Crossover > Kinki Studio EX-M7 > Monitor Audio 5G Gold 300 > JL Audio Fathom f112 v2. System is crossed over at 90Hz. Listening to Radio 1 Xtra at the moment and the system continues to sound absolutely sublime :)
 
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Indeed (y) The goal is to effectively align/calibrate/dial in a subwoofer so that the subwoofer integrates seamlessly with the mains and disappears into the soundstage with a deep, sharp, tight fisted, fast and powerful punchy sub bass. Get it right and a subwoofer can make the most profound difference to the overall performance of the system.

Btw, I am back at the store and listening to the current store system - Naim Audio ND5 XS2 > Denafrips GAIA DDC > Denafrips Termiator II DAC > ATC SCA2 > JL Audio CR-1 Active Subwoofer Crossover > Kinki Studio EX-M7 > Monitor Audio 5G Gold 300 > JL Audio Fathom f112 v2. System is crossed over at 90Hz. Listening to Radio 1 Xtra at the moment and the system continues to sound absolutely sublime :)
and so it should for that price..... :)
 

Tinman1952

Well-known member
I agree a sub adds a great deal to the musical experience and that ‘bottom octave’ is fundamental (see what I did there…) to the musical experience. However adding a sub ‘can’ exacerbate the room modes and ‘muddy’ the sound if not corrected. That’s why the DSpeaker system is so effective. Sub or subs can be integrated with the room measurement microphone and then adjusted to your preference.
End result is cleaner more tonally accurate bass and less interference with the midrange. 👍
 
And how about the content?

Some of the content could be of better quality however the content is there. The issue as I indicated earlier on is that many systems are unable to utilize the content effectively. eg. my speakers go low enough, Get past this and I say this respectfully then generally the sub/s in consideration relative to the cost of the rest of the system can be significantly less then the cost of the cables! Get past this then it's generally advised to run the sub/s below the main speakers and thereby wasting the potential of the sub/s. Get past this and then there can be a reluctance to effectively align, calibrate and dial in the sub/s. Guess work kicks in and generally results in a sound which is tied up in knots. Then it's back to a sub less system and square one.

Sub bass is the foundation of sound and with all things being equal it's best to have effectively aligned, calibrated and dialled in subwoofers deal with and reproduce these frequencies.
 
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AJM1981

Well-known member
I listen to a fair bit of music with plenty going on under 40Hz, and although much of it is relatively modern, some of it goes back to the 80s. All seems intentionally well produced.

The mixing of music has always been as variable as the end user’s listening preferences, so if you’re going to set up a sub in your system, use music you know, and music you consider to sound correct/neutral. From there, you can tweak to give a good setting to cover most music, but whatever the settings, there will always be albums that sound bass heavy or bass light - you can’t avoid it - sub or no sub.

To add to this, the choice of subwoofer for music reproduction is very important. Most subs just don’t have the speed and transient response for convincing music reproduction, so it doesn’t matter how well they’re set up, they’re not going to sound ‘natural’. Most subs are designed to reach as deeply as possible, as loudly as possible, and present the potential buyer with some impressive numbers, although they won’t draw your attention to the numbers relating to distortion…

That is probably the right thing to do, but also an odd thing

A user needs to adjust the bass according to what he is listening. So if there is hiphop with explosive bass that does basically well on regular speakers, one can almost put the sub on the lightest setting, then when one wants a bit of extra bottom edge on an upright bass one needs to turn the knob.

I think a lot of hip hop tracks would sound better if they would take control
When you set up the sub right it is just that. Right! It's difficult to do but no track will sound worse because of it.

"Blaming" music after you've added a sub indicates to me you didn't set it up correctly. And no, let's not remaster everything we can because often it loses the very thing that drawn us to the album in the first place.

This would imply that there is an ongoing standard for mixing like for movies, in reality most producers didn't care and mixed on 2 speakers. Whatever bleeds into lower frequencies was not an issue.
Some of the content could be of better quality however the content is there. The issue as I indicated earlier on is that many systems are unable to utilize the content effectively. eg. my speakers go low enough, Get past this and I say this respectfully then generally the sub/s in consideration relative to the cost of the rest of the system can be significantly less then the cost of the cables! Get past this then it's generally advised to run the sub/s below the main speakers and thereby wasting the potential of the sub/s. Get past this and then there can be a reluctance to effectively align, calibrate and dial in the sub/s. Guess work kicks in and generally results in a sound which is tied up in knots. Then it's back to a sub less system and square one.

Sub bass is the foundation of sound and with all things being equal it's best to have effectively aligned, calibrated and dialled in subwoofers deal with and reproduce these frequencies.

Another user opted to tune the sub to one genre and kind of stick to that.

I think it is a bit of a miss to just state that we should deal with a production as it is.

I have seen the production side multiple times and a sub is often not even part of the question.

A majority is mixed for 2.0 and according to whatever bleeds through in the lowest regions a track might sound right, another might sound like a steam train or one feels like it is too thin on ground level. In other words, fluctuating content. Not in terms of quality but just as a note.

Since composers and engineers for movies know how to manage bass and mix properly for music and sound. Plus that you can watch 50 movies without turning the knob on the sub, it tells that one world is tailored towards a sub and the other one is just 'whatever it does.. is ok'
 

insider9

Well-known member
This would imply that there is an ongoing standard for mixing like for movies, in reality most producers didn't care and mixed on 2 speakers. Whatever bleeds into lower frequencies was not an issue.
Yes, there has been a process in place for controlling low end in music production for decades. It's called mastering, Sure, it's not just about low end but controlling it has always been one of the most important things in mastering process. This for a very long time until digital era was done by absolute pros that should they have a compromised monitoring system would still know what to do and produce great results with no issues you mention.

Furthermore, producers - produce. Mixing engineers - mix. Many mix engineers will use multiples of reference monitors, ranging in size, shape, listening distance and number of channels be it mono or stereo. If things "bleed" into low end that's usually on purpose and part of the sound but it's always controlled. Sure nowadays anyone can call themselves that and some mixes are horrendous but then it usually lands with a mastering engineer who will deal with low end issues or send the mix back for revisions.

Have you considered that what you're hearing is 1) your sub isn't properly integrated 2) your room is unsuitable for a sub without heavy room treatment 3) the physical layout of your room (listening position, sub and speaker position) compound the issues 4) your routing somehow sends fixed volume signal to the sub meaning the minute you turn up the volume of your mains speakers sub is too low / vice-versa when you turn your mains down your sub is too loud.

Issues you're describing are far too severe with correct setup even in an untreated room.

My advice is get yourself a pair of headphones such as AKG K371 which are linear from mids all the way down and listen. Are you still hearing the same issues? My guess will be in vast majority of cases - no!
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
If mixing and mastering processes were uniformaly properly executed throughout time, remasters weren't a thing. It is work done by humans and there are differences between approaches.

The difference between a track that could have more bass than applied and a bass heavy track that rumbles and could have been tuned down exists.
 

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