Is vinyl really for me?

[jacobmorrison]

I love vinyl, I ways have done, but the frustration with the medium has had me on the upgrade path for years in search of better. I'm now on my fourth deck, the pro-ject in my signature, with a good cartridge and sublime phono stage, and I mostly love the way it sounds. But, and it's a big but, I'm often distracted, either by bad pressings, inner groove distortion, occasionally poor mastering, all the things that can plague analogue. Now I'm wondering whether I should just accept these imperfections and vaccinate myself against the upgrade bug. Or is analogue nirvana just one trade-in around the corner.

I guess it comes down to this. Am I chasing something that's impossible? Will the next-level decks (Clearaudio/Michell/VPI etc) be significantly better at handling these imperfections, reducing these distractions, or am I right in suspecting that once you've spent £2K on an analogue front-end then spending more becomes about differences in presentation, rather than quantifiable improvements?

Any feedback would be appreciated!

 

[MajorFubar]

I realise this is not particularly helpful but let me summarise with two opposing sentences the feedback you will get:

(1) You've not even nearly heard what records are capable of

(2) You've pretty much already heard what vinyl has to offer, summed-up its unavoidable weaknessess, and beyond what you already know is just refinement of the final 25%.

To rejouvenate your interest I'd recommend hunting down a dealer that stocks kit several leagues more expensive than you have already heard, and if it truly blows you away, you at least know there is something left to aspire to.

 

[Chris Munden]

I love viynl too, and have done so since the 60's with my Thorens TD 160 deck and a SME 3009 arm + Shure cartridge, and a Creek 40 40 amp, still use it but now have some B + W book shelf speakers.

My upgrade path got me as far as the Rega Planar 3 old model with RB 300 arm in the 80's. Loved the deck but to be honest if it was not a lot better than my old Thorens I was hard pressed to notice much of a difference. I still have the old Planar 3 but its in retirement now as it needs some expensive upgrades to stop the wow and motor hum.

You can get into the upgrade path which can be very adictive but the further you go up the chain you start to see a diminishing return for your money that gathers momentum as you go further up the ladder. I just could not justify the expence over performance which can be very subjective any way. The Hi Fi industry will also be having its influence on you as you up grade, they will have you believe, if you up grade that, you must up grade this, and if you up grade this you must up grade that and so on and so forth, it snow balls and for some out of control.

I decided to go backwards, after retiring the Planar and got a Audio Technica AT-LP5 direct drive deck, Stock AT95EX as fitted and I have to be honest its in fact better than my old Planar, no wow or motor hum excellent build and solid performnce. I recently put a Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge on the deck as it was on offer and my sound is excellent and very satisfying but really not much better than the AT95EX. It sounds great and that is where it will stay, a great sound with basically budget gear. Listen to the music, not the componants, if it ain broke, don't mend it.

 

[CnoEvil]

My advice - Listen to a Linn DS (Majik or above)...and then see if you still want the faff.

I used to have LP12/Ittok/Asak, which I loved....but sold years ago. I don't miss it at all now (except for those albums that were recorded Pre CD and usually sound better on Vinyl).

If you enjoy the hassle...then Long Live the Faff! *smile*

 

[bigfish786]

what attracted me to vinyl was the expense and inconvenience.

 

[davidf]

Can I ask which decks you had before your current project?

 

[MajorFubar]

I love viynl too, and have done so since the 60's with my Thorens TD 160 deck and a SME 3009 arm + Shure cartridge [snip] my upgrade path got me as far as the Rega Planar 3 old model with RB 300 arm in the 80's. Loved the deck but to be honest if it was not a lot better than my old Thorens I was hard pressed to notice much of a difference.

I too almost fell for the 'It's newer so it must be better' trap in the 80s, particularly when every turntable Rega made was getting superlative reviews while the Thorens (by then in 160C guise) was reviewed almost apologetically. Let's see how well Grandad performs in comparison to these new young upstarts. In contrast, Linn also hadn't fundamentally changed its product since 1972 either, but because it was British it was a 'classic timeless design', whereas the (Swiss) Thorens was just old.

 

[Chris Munden]

There is no doubt that modern equipment has evolved into excellent (well some excellent) bits of kit, but at a price. Linn are a joke now IMHO and equal if not better performance can be had from much cheaper turntables/arm/cartridge combinations.

Going back to the original question, any improvement in sound reproduction could be wiped out from poor recordings/Vinyl cuts of your albums or simply poorly set up equipment. It really depends on how much money you 'think' you need to spend for the alleged gain in sound quality. Often a cartridge up grade is all thats needed to make a bigger jump in sound quality, that would be my first port of call before the wife sends for men in white coats, only joking. There is no holy grail in Hi Fi.

 

[MajorFubar]

Going back to the original question, any improvement in sound reproduction could be wiped out from poor recordings/Vinyl cuts of your albums or simply poorly set up equipment. It really depends on how much money you 'think' you need to spend for the alleged gain in sound quality.

Yeah and this is why I reckon OP needs to go audition something out of his budget to judge what is and isn't possible. Having spent a lot, he's suffering a kind of vinyl middle-aged depression: is this really all there is? Going to listen to something way above his financial comfort zone will either reinvigorate his interest or cure him of it.

Often a cartridge up grade is all thats needed to make a bigger jump in sound quality, that would be my first port of call

Maybe...to be fair he's rocking a £500 Ortofon MC Quintet Bronze...he shouldn't need to spend even more to have a cartridge that's doing at least the basic things very right. Maybe a sideways move (to something other than Ortofon) would help.

But it's all very much guesswork, this is where a good dealer is a must. It's why they exist(ed).

 

[Al ears]

Going back to the original question, any improvement in sound reproduction could be wiped out from poor recordings/Vinyl cuts of your albums or simply poorly set up equipment. It really depends on how much money you 'think' you need to spend for the alleged gain in sound quality.

Yeah and this is why I reckon OP needs to go audition something out of his budget to judge what is and isn't possible. Having spent a lot, he's suffering a kind of vinyl middle-aged depression: is this really all there is? Going to listen to something way above his financial comfort zone will either reinvigorate his interest or cure him of it.

Often a cartridge up grade is all thats needed to make a bigger jump in sound quality, that would be my first port of call

Maybe...to be fair he's rocking a £500 Ortofon MC Quintet Bronze...he shouldn't need to spend even more to have a cartridge that's doing at least the basic things very right. Maybe a sideways move (to something other than Ortofon) would help.

But it's all very much guesswork, this is where a good dealer is a must. It's why they exist(ed).

I would agree, if that Ortofon is not living up to expectations then perhaps it is down to the tonearm it is mounted on, as it's very good, but I doubt that. However no cartridge is going to make a truely badly pressed or recorded LP sound good.

His phono preamp is new to me but supposedly very good too.

Perhaps if he listened to a known excellent recording from the likes of Mobile Fidelity he might determine if his equipment is well set-up or not or even get a vinyl test disc.

I have not looked but was wondering if the compliance of the Ortofon might be an issue with the Pro-eject arm.

EDIT: having recently checked the compliance appears to be fine...... and I am led to believe the Ortofon is meant to track pretty good as well.

He does mention inner groove distortion which is usually a set up induced problem.

As for bad pressings / poor recordings I would suggest he is not doing enough research into those expensive black discs prior to purchasing.

 

[thescarletpronster]

Linn also hadn't fundamentally changed its product since 1972 either, but because it was British it was a 'classic timeless design'

I've always thought Linn was Scandinavian, because of the name (and 'Sondek' sounds Scandinavian too). You Learn Something Every Day (TM).

 

[Chris Munden]

To put a finer point on it, Linn is Scottish or was when I last looked.

 

[Lost Angeles]

You could always go back to MP3 or CD.

Where's me coat.

 

[Tonestar1]

Linn also hadn't fundamentally changed its product since 1972 either, but because it was British it was a 'classic timeless design'

I've always thought Linn was Scandinavian, because of the name (and 'Sondek' sounds Scandinavian too). You Learn Something Every Day (TM).

Linn is made just outside of Glasgow. I had always though the founder, Ivor Tiefenbrun, was Scandinavian. A quick bit of research and I have found out he was born in Poland so God knows where all the Nordic nomenclature has came from... No doubt someone with more knowledge than me on here will know. I'd be interested to find out.

 

[Alantiggger]

Stop kidding yourelf on, CD is far better..... no crackles nor hisses.

Only thing better than records/.LP's or 45's...... If NOT CD, then DVD OR BLU-RAY sound...... so buy the discs..... lp's or 7inch, LOL.... 'vinyl', away for a month, vinyl [/b]hahahahaha, lol.

Blu-ray is best.

 

[Chris Munden]

My Akai reel to reel tape deck is the best sounding system I have, but its really only as good as the stuff you feed it.

 

[MajorFubar]

My Akai reel to reel tape deck is the best sounding system I have, but its really only as good as the stuff you feed it.

Once upon a time you could buy albums on open reel tape. I heard a few back in the 70s: some were okay, but most unfortunately suffered from similar mass-duplication quality-loss as cassettes. Most of the ones I heard were also 3¾ IPS to halve the amount of tape used, so again that sacrificed quality as well.

 

[Chris Munden]

I used to record all my Vinyls when brand new on to reel to reel so they were preserved with out all the snap crackle and pop they entually get over the years. I made many compilation tapes of my favourite music this way, agreed, you could buy recorded albums on 1/4" but it was never that good.

 

[MajorFubar]

The problem I used to have with my Akai (4000DB) was I never could find a tape that matched its bias and EQ characteristics. All the recordings I made were dull unless I recorded them at 7½ IPS and played them back with the EQ switch set to 3¾. The unit had Dolby B noise reduction, but you couldn't ever really use it because the over-biasing caused the Dolby to mistrack on playback, which exacerbated the problem. The 'Low Noise / Wide Range' switch seemed to make next to no difference either. What the machine desperately needed was a 'bias fine' control, which somehow never found its way from cassette recorders to (domestic) open reel recorders.

 

[Chris Munden]

I had similar experiences, my deck did not have Dolby, it was the 4000DS, I eventually found Maxelle wide bias tape worked slightly better but it wasn't perfect. Where the decks realy shone was the recorded voice from a microphone, like in a studio. I had an old Ferrograph, which nothing ever came near for sound reproduction and that was with good old EMI tape, but unable to get spares so it got sold to a dealer for parts.

A bit off topic I know but interesting.

 

[MajorFubar]

My dad used a Sony TC399 which had a much flatter FR on the kind of tapes we in the UK could actually get our hands on. It was also vastly superior to the Akai when recording at 3¾, and its slowest speed of 1 and 7/8ths (cassette speed) was more than adequate for speech. Though I never fully got my head round why at cassette speed it wasn't at least as good as a cassette, seeing the tracks were double the width. I guess either cassette heads had a narrower gap or the ferric oxide particles on cassette tapes were smaller and tighter condensed.

Sorry to OP for the off-topic.

 

[Beyondadream]

I am a vinyl enthusiast too. I also suffer the same pressing issues. From a theoretical point of view. I wonder how a piece of music played using digital equipment and recorded on digital equipment could ever sound better on vinyl?

I also wonder how a tiny dac which appears too have few components can cost 5 times more than a serious beast of a PC or ten times more than the latest 4K TV.

I also wonder why I can get more enjoyment listening to music using a £200 pair of headphones plugged into a 7 year old windows laptop than my 7K HIFI.

I also wonder when the vinyl revival is going to fade out.

I also wonder why there are so many stars in the sky.

 

[MajorFubar]

I am a vinyl enthusiast too. I also suffer the same pressing issues.

You were pressed from a worn-out stamper, you're slightly warped, and your esses are very sibilant?

 

[Al ears]

I am a vinyl enthusiast too. I also suffer the same pressing issues.

You were pressed from a worn-out stamper, you're slightly warped, and your esses are very sibilant?

It's that inner groove distortion you have to be careful of....

 

[good_enough]

Aside from 'thin' pressings, a decent vinyl system should be as musical and 'transparent' as a decent digital system. Inner Groove Distortion in my experience is highly cartridge-dependent (assuming proper alignment).

I agree with the suggestion above regarding listening to a good set-up to see what you are missing and whether it is worth carrying on with. If you have a nearby Richers, they should have a top-end Project turntable with a 2M Black on it. The best phono stage in your local Richers will be inside a Roksan Caspian or K3. So get them to hook that lot up and have a good listen (ignoring their attempts to tell you that Cambridge Audio do a better amp). For a start, you should hear IGD disappear - I get zip, nada, zero out of my Hana SH.

And if that doesn't work for you then no worries - it should be the music that counts not the shape of the bit of plastic or silicon that contains it! Just get a good CD player or streamer and keep on trucking.