Is there much difference in network streamers if internal DAC is bypassed?

[Hondoe1950]

i've seen another discussion on this forum about this issue but would love feedback that is authoritative on it:

If I bypass the DAC in my streamer, is there any real difference between a $400 streamer and a much more expensive one in music quality?

Thanks!

 

[Dave_]

No.

 

[Gray]

...but would love feedback that is authoritative on it:

My feedback was authoritative....to me.

I've compared two 'bit perfect' streaming transports, via the same DAC / amp / speakers.
Due to the familiarity of the test track, I heard an unmistakable difference.
I reckon I would have to point out the difference - but I'm pretty sure that, once noticed, anyone (with no worse hearing than me) would have heard it too.
(There was little (if any) real difference in price between my streaming sources).

The test outcome went against my expectation.
That's all I can say 😐

 

[The_Lecht_Rocks]

Hmmmmm
DAC alone I’d agree very little difference…..But the circuit and clocking of the path design DOES make a difference..
My NODE ICON sounds more impressive than the considerably more expensive EXN100

 

[Integralista]

Hmmmmm
DAC alone I’d agree very little difference…..But the circuit and clocking of the path design DOES make a difference..
My NODE ICON sounds more impressive than the considerably more expensive EXN100

I agree, Node Icon is one of kings today. EXN 100 is a bit outdated, especialy looking on tornado from East full of Eversolo with very good dacs, etc. Here I will look, If I have to choose some streamer. Dac issue is I think also quite personal/subjective. I recommend to try by yourself. What works for your neighbour, shouldn't work in your living room. BR.

 

[Al ears]

Not sure why you would buy anything with an inbuilt dac if you intend to bypass it....

 

[Jasonovich]

From my personal experience, I have had a succession of different DACs and each replacement has given me some uplift in the sound quality.
Not the kind of difference you'll notice if you upgrade your amp or speakers.

The more expensive units are likely to have better clock, better components, better power supplies, it isn't just about the DAC. The ecosystem is far more important than the chipset.

It can be hit or miss if you choose the wrong DAC, so always do your own research before making the purchase.

Some bespoke setups like custom FPGA can deliver better results than chipsets. Like the Chord DACs that are highly regarded. My media player Vovofox, which I'm using as a digital transport has it's own FPGA and it really sounds good. I can't decide as a standalone DAC if the sound is better than my Matrix Streamer DAC.
I decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

Also as an alternative to chipset solutions, there's R2R or Ladder circuitry. Some prefer the softness of R2R, again your own ears will decide for you.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

No

 

[Messiah]

Would love feedback that is authoritative on it.

Hmm. What do you regard as authoritative?

Where Hi-Fi is concerned I am not sure there is anyone that fits the bill.

As an example (and honestly not starting a cable debate or whether people can hear differences or not etc), at the Bristol Show, the Arcam engineer was truly baffled at how much people spend on cables (mentioning Chord who were further along the ground floor). In my opinion, an engineer from Arcam is pretty authoritative but would 100% of people take his view on cables? Not a chance. 😊

In my experience, (and assuming you mean feeding two different streamers into the same DAC), I have not noticed a difference in sound - although I personally did this with CD players and not streamers).

 

[good_enough]

Like @Messiah I'm not sure what 'authoritative' means.

I'm a network engineer working with bit rates way higher than audio file formats. I.e. Ethernet networks up to 100 Gbps. Getting the 1s and 0s from one box to another should not influence anything. The only possible influences could be noise introduced in the cable you just added to the path (shouldn't happen: anyone can make a decent cable). But if you've introduced some interference or a ground loop you might get noise. Noise basically can persuade the receiving device that it's seen a '1' where it should have seen a '0'. Optical ls pretty much immune from any of this, natch. If I can get 40 Gbps over 10km via optic I'd take with a pinch of salt anyone on here arguing otherwise.

The degree of benefit you'll hear will in part depend on where the timing occurs. You want the clock on the target fancy DAC to do the timing.

With regard to the overall setup, you can view the digital path as transparent with the caveat above. I have no doubt that DACs (the boxes) vary in sound due to the various other elements such as the analogue amplification bits, as opposed to DACs (the chips).

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Hmm. What do you regard as authoritative?

Where Hi-Fi is concerned I am not sure there is anyone that fits the bill.

As an example (and honestly not starting a cable debate or whether people can hear differences or not etc), at the Bristol Show, the Arcam engineer was truly baffled at how much people spend on cables (mentioning Chord who were further along the ground floor). In my opinion, an engineer from Arcam is pretty authoritative but would 100% of people take his view on cables? Not a chance. 😊

In my experience, (and assuming you mean feeding two different streamers into the same DAC), I have not noticed a difference in sound - although I personally did this with CD players and not streamers).

What I've noticed in the last few years is that more and more people are realising the audiophile cable market is a big scam. There are so many authoritative videos on YouTube now that explain why it's a con, show evidence and explain about placebo effect and biases.

 

[daytona600]

Ones are Ones & Zeros are Zeros and should sound the same
But a $40,000 one will sound better than a $400

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Ones are Ones & Zeros are Zeros and should sound the same
But a $40,000 one will sound better than a $400

Why?

 

[Hondoe1950]

Thank you all for your responses.

I love this forum and appreciate all of you very much.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

The test outcome went against my expectation.
That's all I can say 😐

I seem to recall when I made a similar observation about something else being told I was deluding myself. At least we can't be accused of confirmation bias.

And this thread is not about cables, so stay on topic please (not aimed at Gray.)

 

[Gray]

Ones are Ones & Zeros are Zeros and should sound the same
But a $40,000 one will sound better than a $400

Reminds me of the famous Hi-fi Wigwam post stating that 'no DAC below £1000 is worth considering'.

(Mind you, someone on that forum thought a more expensive audiophile fuse was likely to sound better than the £200 one he'd bought🙃).

 

[RJW232]

An external DAC reclocks the data before sending it to the DAC chip(set). So if a streamer sounds better than another one, you can argue about the quality of reclocking and relies too much on the incoming signal timing. Another explanation for sound differences can be caused by inferior I/O circuits in the streamer and the DAC. Unlike analogue systems, digital interconnects are specified in much detail. Output impedance, input impedance , etc should be according the standardized specs. If not it can lead to differences. Although we're talking about digital communication, the bitstream is in the end a fairly high frequent analog signal.

 

[Hondoe1950]

RJW232: Wow! I really appreciate your message as it makes perfect sense and clarifies the issues at hand. Thank you very much.

 

[RayP]

Getting a better DAC is the icing on the cake. The law of diminishing returns kicks in. You’ll spend a lot for a small improvement.

What is far more important is getting better loudspeakers and amplifier. Room correction software can also further improve sound more than a DAC.

Testing music played via my AVR with DIRAC enabled removed a bass lift that was caused by my Spendor D7.2s interacting with my room. The alternative of moving them further away from a wall wasn’t practical. The difference was very audible.

My Bluesound Node Icon is DIRAC capable. I’m expecting the same improvement once configured with a UMIK-1 via a Naim XS3.

 

[The_Lecht_Rocks]

Getting a better DAC is the icing on the cake. The law of diminishing returns kicks in. You’ll spend a lot for a small improvement.

What is far more important is getting better loudspeakers and amplifier. Room correction software can also further improve sound more than a DAC.

Testing music played via my AVR with DIRAC enabled removed a bass lift that was caused by my Spendor D7.2s interacting with my room. The alternative of moving them further away from a wall wasn’t practical. The difference was very audible.

My Bluesound Node Icon is DIRAC capable. I’m expecting the same improvement once configured with a UMIK-1 via a Naim XS3.

good luck with that; thoughts welcomed via DM as I am running ICON into Nait50 into ATC SCM11s and its sublime without DIRAC

 

[The_Lecht_Rocks]

The room correction software built into the Wiim is to be avoided.

It completely shrunk the soundstage and reduced the quality of the sound greatly.

Agreed. Utter rubbish
Better getting the correct speaker and placement to begin with.

 

[Al ears]

RJW232: Wow! I really appreciate your message as it makes perfect sense and clarifies the issues at hand. Thank you very much.

Agreed. Utter rubbish
Better getting the correct speaker and placement to begin with.

Yep. Room correction software will be of no real benefit to poorly matched speakers / room setups although it may possibly help fine tune a good setup, however it's not something I ever felt the need to use.
All I require these days is an amp with a balance control function and using room correction would cancel this.

 

[RayP]

good luck with that; thoughts welcomed via DM as I am running ICON into Nait50 into ATC SCM11s and its sublime without DIRAC

It will be a few weeks as I have a fair bit on at present. With your smaller speakers I doubt the room is interfering with the bottom end. Different with floorstanders.

One track on my old B&W CM4s and now Spendors was “Rhythm Of Life” by Oleta Adams.

There was some intrusive upper bass I was never happy with. I decided it must be a poor recording but it was only after listening to it on YouTube via my AVR (with DIRAC) I discovered it was the room creating this bass, not the speakers or amp. Certainly not the recording.

Being able to toggle DIRAC on / off made it very easy to hear the improvement. Hence why I bought the Icon with its DIRAC licence.

I have the UMIK-1 and a microphone stand so it will be easy to fine tune for excellent results.

 

[RayP]

Room correction software will be of no real benefit to poorly matched speakers / room setups

With my home cinema setup and the centre hard against the chimney breast DIRAC made a substantial improvement with the chestiness in dialogue completely eliminated. If anyone has this problem DIRAC is a life saver.

 

[manicm]

With my home cinema setup and the centre hard against the chimney breast DIRAC made a substantial improvement with the chestiness in dialogue completely eliminated. If anyone has this problem DIRAC is a life saver.

As far as all the companies I know, there are only 3 I trust - Dirac, Linn and Lyngdorf, and Sonos of course. Those in WiiM and Eversolo are useless.