Is my problem my hi-fi or my music? (Arcam/Ruark/Audiolab Vs Rock)

[admin_exported]

Hi,

Long time reader (nearly 20 years), first time poster.

My system comprises Arcam CD72T, a vintage Audiolab 8000A, Ruark Prologue One floorstanders, QED Micro Bi-wire speaker cable, Musical Fidelity X-link interconnect, Atacama stand and Tacima mains conditioner.

My issue is that despite recently upgrading all of my system (in stages - some more effective than others) I still struggle to get a consistent sound I am happy with. When listening to electronic or "simple" music, say acoustic or vocal, the sound is beautifully clear and open with a real sense of soundstage and space. However, when I put on something more complex like rock with a multi-layered production, the sound can become muddled and unclear. I wish my music was always as clear as the acoustic/electronic tracks.

Is this a failing of my system? Can I improve this or am I just expecting too much out of my music?

My suspicions are that I should look to replace my CD player first, since this is the upgrade which didn't seem to give the greatest improvement over my NAD 524. However, I have also recently listened to some Monitor Audio Bronze and various B&W speakers and noticed how sharp and clear the treble was over my Ruarks - could this be what I am missing? I generally buy my Hi-fi "pre-loved" so budgets are a little misleading but let's say something like £500 to £800 RRP for each component. Oh and ideally my next speakers would be standmounts.

Any advice or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Richard.

 

[Anonymous]

You'll be happy and sad with the following news. Good news, is that your equipment is probably not the cause of the "muddled" sound. That's the quality of the recording. Bad news, that means you can't buy new equipment to solve it, although Ruarks are the best for rock...for new speakers, I would be tempted to suggest something like the B&W 705D second hand or something like the PMC TB2s. Then again, many people on here recommend the Rega R3/R5/R7 which are fairly small floorstanders.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Thanks for the fast response!

That really is bad news if it means I can't upgrade to fix the issue, I really was looking forward to that part

I do think I can get "sweeter" treble from some new speakers so might focus there. I have been impressed by the B&W "Nautilus" derrived tweeters so may take a look at the 705's.

Thanks again!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Hughes123"]............you can't buy new equipment to solve it..........[/quote]

err... that's not true at all!

 

[matengawhat]

to be honest the more you upgrade the more you're likely to get frustrated with what you hear - as said above a lot comes down to recordings and i might quickly add not all but some because albums are now over engineered - everything is loud - no quiet sections to songs anymore - sounds daft but you have to get past it otherwise it will drive you mad!! Improvements can be made by upgrading gear but you will find that good recordings sound better and better and poor ones just as bad.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="jbadman"]
[quote user="Hughes123"]............you can't buy new equipment to solve it..........[/quote]

err... that's not true at all!
[/quote]

Well it is, if the quality isn't there to start with, you can't solve it - however, I should have made myself clear that you can IMPROVE the situation by new equipment - but rock music will make all but the most expensive systems sound muddled - it's just to what extent...

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks.

This has been something on my mind. I do understand that Audiophile nirvana is all in the mind but increasingly I put a disk on (say the Stone Roses or Counting Crows) and just dispare at the lack of clarity to the point of putting something else on. Specifically, the clarity seems to be lost in the vocals - perhaps because that's where I am looking for it most?

I realise its easier to reproduce simple music clearly (or maybe its easier to listen to?) but I really want something to bring these recordings alive.

 

[Anonymous]

Dont worry - I think I can appreciate both responses.

I always like the old adage "You can't polish a turd"

Though of course you can "rubbish on it a little less"

Sorry if that's a crude analogy - it was the most relevant one to hand.

 

[Anonymous]

Funny and true! What an ANALology.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Hughes123"][quote user="jbadman"]

[quote user="Hughes123"]............you can't buy new equipment to solve it..........[/quote]

err... that's not true at all!
[/quote]

Well it is, if the quality isn't there to start with, you can't solve it - however, I should have made myself clear that you can IMPROVE the situation by new equipment - but rock music will make all but the most expensive systems sound muddled - it's just to what extent...[/quote]

Dont worry - I think I can appreciate both responses.

I always like the old adage "You can't polish a turd"

Though of course you can "rubbish on it a little less"

Sorry if that's a crude analogy - it was the most relevant one to hand.

 

[Anonymous]

I didnt mention my proposed CD upgrade options which are also important (since if the improvement isnt large enough, i'll still be dissapointed).

I was thinking of a Rega Apollo (after some great reviews) or Naim CD5i if funds allow.

Since the RRp is close to my Arcam, I dont know if the Rega will be a great improvement, though perhaps its a generation newer in design?

Any thoughts?

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe you should seek a home audition of some different speakers, which always make the biggest difference when swapping out components.

 

[Big Chris]

[quote user="ashworth_rich"]
I didnt mention my proposed CD upgrade options which are also important (since if the improvement isnt large enough, i'll still be dissapointed).

I was thinking of a Rega Apollo (after some great reviews) or Naim CD5i if funds allow.

Since the RRp is close to my Arcam, I dont know if the Rega will be a great improvement, though perhaps its a generation newer in design?

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

For the money, why not upgrade your CD72T to a CD192? I've not heard it myself, but it's meant to be a faster, punchier listen than the 72. Sounds like just the tonic you're after.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="jbadman"]
Maybe you should seek a home audition of some different speakers, which always make the biggest difference when swapping out components.

[/quote]

That would be ideal, however with second hand and ex demo gear I imagine they woudn't be so keen?
I would rather buy from a Hi-Fi dealer than eBay though, so its a possibility.

I bought my Audiolab recently from Rayleigh Hifi in Chelmsford and whilst the assistant was very helpful and raved about it (as he would) it was a rather "no frills" dealing. Still it only cost me £150 so i'm not complaining. Oh and it also knocked the stuffing out of the NAD C340 I was running before. It totally reaffirmed my faith in Hi-Fi and upgrades. There was so much more treble clarity and detail. Vocals were far more airy and open. It was like listening to a different type of music.

But I digress.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Big Chris"][quote user="ashworth_rich"]
I didnt mention my proposed CD upgrade options which are also important (since if the improvement isnt large enough, i'll still be dissapointed).

I was thinking of a Rega Apollo (after some great reviews) or Naim CD5i if funds allow.

Since the RRp is close to my Arcam, I dont know if the Rega will be a great improvement, though perhaps its a generation newer in design?

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

For the money, why not upgrade your CD72T to a CD192? I've not heard it myself, but it's meant to be a faster, punchier listen than the 72. Sounds like just the tonic you're after.[/quote]

Thanks.
I have spotted a few end of line or ex demo units for about £600 which is good. I'd rather spend less however and I must say that when moving from my budget NAD 524 to the CD72 (twice the price when new) I did a thorough "back-to-back" comparison. If i'm honest I couldnt discern any difference at the time. I know Hifi is more subtle than that and I will probably be appreciating more elements over time, but lets just say it didnt blow me away.

Or perhaps you meant "upgrade" as in send back to Arcam...yes I hadn't thought of that. Depends on the cost of course.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ashworth_rich"][quote user="Big Chris"][quote user="ashworth_rich"]
I didnt mention my proposed CD upgrade options which are also important (since if the improvement isnt large enough, i'll still be dissapointed).

I was thinking of a Rega Apollo (after some great reviews) or Naim CD5i if funds allow.

Since the RRp is close to my Arcam, I dont know if the Rega will be a great improvement, though perhaps its a generation newer in design?

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

For the money, why not upgrade your CD72T to a CD192? I've not heard it myself, but it's meant to be a faster, punchier listen than the 72. Sounds like just the tonic you're after.[/quote]

Thanks.
I have spotted a few end of line or ex demo units for about £600 which is good. I'd rather spend less however and I must say that when moving from my budget NAD 524 to the CD72 (twice the price when new) I did a thorough "back-to-back" comparison. If i'm honest I couldnt discern any difference at the time. I know Hifi is more subtle than that and I will probably be appreciating more elements over time, but lets just say it didnt blow me away.[/quote]

just found this great comparison of the CD72 and 192. it mentions the 72 can sound "Muddled" at times (AHA!)
You'll have to figure the URL out as this site is blocking it!
www . a v f o r u m s . com / forums / showthread.php?t=326049

 

[Big Chris]

[quote user="ashworth_rich"][quote user="ashworth_rich"][quote user="Big Chris"][quote user="ashworth_rich"]
I didnt mention my proposed CD upgrade options which are also important (since if the improvement isnt large enough, i'll still be dissapointed).

I was thinking of a Rega Apollo (after some great reviews) or Naim CD5i if funds allow.

Since the RRp is close to my Arcam, I dont know if the Rega will be a great improvement, though perhaps its a generation newer in design?

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

For the money, why not upgrade your CD72T to a CD192? I've not heard it myself, but it's meant to be a faster, punchier listen than the 72. Sounds like just the tonic you're after.[/quote]

Thanks.
I have spotted a few end of line or ex demo units for about £600 which is good. I'd rather spend less however and I must say that when moving from my budget NAD 524 to the CD72 (twice the price when new) I did a thorough "back-to-back" comparison. If i'm honest I couldnt discern any difference at the time. I know Hifi is more subtle than that and I will probably be appreciating more elements over time, but lets just say it didnt blow me away.[/quote]

just found this great comparison of the CD72 and 192. it mentions the 72 can sound "Muddled" at times (AHA!)
You'll have to figure the URL out as this site is blocking it!
www . a v f o r u m s . com / forums / showthread.php?t=326049[/quote]

Of course, Arcam can take your very own CD72 and work their magic, and return it to you as a CD192. Unless your 72 is a cosmetic nightmare, I'd probably take this path myself.

 

[Anonymous]

Nope, my CD72T (£200 off of ebay) is a minter!
This is a tempting proposition.

I've read a bit about the upgrades and it could cost about £500 to get to the CD192 which isn't bad for a £1000 player. Can anyone confirm if its simply a DAC and tray front exchange or do they change the power supply too?

 

[gwynne61]

If you want to change to a CD192, consider Sevenoaks Brighton Store selling for £499 brand new, you could sell your cd72 and reduce the cost of the upgrade. Have a 192 which replaced the Alpha 7se which is of potentially similar lineage to the cd72, major sonic improvement but unforgiving of poor recordings!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="gwynne61"]
If you want to change to a CD192, consider Sevenoaks Brighton Store selling for £499 brand new, you could sell your cd72 and reduce the cost of the upgrade. Have a 192 which replaced the Alpha 7se which is of potentially similar lineage to the cd72, major sonic improvement but unforgiving of poor recordings!

[/quote]

That's a great price! I guess they wont hang around at that price...

 

[Anonymous]

I have just found that Audio-T have a Cyrus CD8x for £700 New and CD6s for £500 also New. I'm sure these got great reviews in the press. Does anyone have any first hand experience of them??
Thanks