Is Dolby Atmos failing or just slow starting?

[bigboss]

You can't compare Apples and Oranges. There are a lot other reasons why monoblocks sound superior, not channels of amplification. Didn't the Pioneer you owned and raved about in the past have 9 channels of amplification?

 

[ellisdj]

Nope it had 7 and I only used 5. My power amp now has 5 channels.

However it would be better if it had only 1 or 2 and yes you can compare apples and oranges as they are doing the same thing.

I know some companies have gone all out for SQ - Bryston for example with the SP3 - not many people can afford to own that but thats what they have done and I applaud them for that

The main japanese companies like Onkyo cant do that as they have to stay first or up to speed in the AV Receiver tech race - I do understand that - features probably sell more kit than SQ as SQ is hugely affected and hindered by the average living space

Doesnt mean I agree with it

 

[bigboss]

Hmmm.....looks like you should stick to Hi Fi section then!

What do you propose for people wanting surround sound? Should they completely ignore Atmos and lose out on what's coded on the disc for Atmos? I would pick multichannel with Atmos any day over 2 channel stereo.

You will want a superior stereo amplifier for complex musical pieces where separation is important. But movie sound demands something else.

 

[ellisdj]

I disagree totally BB - good sound is good sound doesnt matter whats being played back.

I have upgraded my system a lot based on what will give me better stereo playback and movie sound tracks have improved at the same time. There is a big difference in Movies SQ from where I was to where I am now and I am sure it could go on a fair bit more than what I am experiencing.

You can look at 2 ways - how much am I losing not hearing the atmos encoding stuff?? I get that for the future more than for now

Or you can look at - how much am I actually losing of the whole sound production? By this I mean the quality of it not necessarily missing bits - sure you know what I mean. I mean properly capturing what was produced or as close as possible

EDIT - most of which is music?

 

[bigboss]

I would suggest you demo Marantz SR7009 first before assuming things. And demo a proper Atmos system in a house (not Bristol show). You have this annoying habit of commenting on things you haven't demoed, like recommending Anthem MRX710 over 510 in the past. You're welcome to demo at my house.

 

[ellisdj]

I have not commented on anything - I have just said that to me the aim for better SQ made more sense than adding more speakers. Not knocking anyone for having or wanting atmos or the pursuit of a better overall cinematic experience. Thats what we all want BB (the 510 and 710 situation was completely different)

Funny I will be demoing that Marantz receiver next week on a good set of speakers in a house so that will tell me a lot about the quality of the sound from it, looking forward to that

 

[HomeSound]

I am all for 3D Audio and Atmos does bring a lot to the movie experience in my opinion. When I am specifying a cinema I now always look to see how I can accomodate 3D audio within the system as a starting point. One of the great things about Atmos is the lift in performance in mid level systems, it is not reserved for the high performing home theatres.

The lack of software is an issue but just as PLIIz had its place with no native content so do Auro and Atmos (and more than likely DTS:X). There are more and more products coming to market to overcome the reservation of ceiling speakers for those how are not starting fresh.

Things have moved on quite significantly in 2ch sound as well, if you are sitting with a Pioneer AX10,Yamaha DSP-Z9 or similar the market leading amps today are a revelation in comparison. The mainstream market has shifted towards 2ch for a variety of reasons, several of them commercial, but the movie market is still thriving and served by a host of specialists. Just my 2p worth but from my viewpoint 3D Audio is just getting going.

 

[bigboss]

Funny I will be demoing that Marantz receiver next week on a good set of speakers in a house so that will tell me a lot about the quality of the sound from it, looking forward to that

Do report back.

 

[bigboss]

You may be interested in this thread ellisdj:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/svs-ultra-13-owners

 

[ellisdj]

Cheers BB - I cant help the guy he is wiring up from a stereo system I dont know how best to advise him. I think the advice he has been already given is pretty good. I always found it extremely difficult to integrate a sub via a high level connection which is roughly what he is doing

 

[The_Lhc]

The market has apparently shifted interest towards stereo / 2 channel products and AV sales has suffered this has been said by a long established industry seller on here. This could be why the majority of the Bristol show was stereo setups this year - I dont know?

I'd have thought that's more likely because there are simply more 2-channel manufacturers than there are AV manufacturers, stereo is "easy", in as much as it's a mature technology, as far as the amplification is concerned there's nothing new in the market, so it's much easier for small volume manufacturers to survive in that arena. Compare that to AV where you don't just have to worry about amplifying the sound you also need to know how to decode it, new codecs come out out constantly, it's a moving target and only the bigger makers can afford the research costs required to compete, hence there are fewer makers exhibiting those products, look at the trouble even an established name like ARCAM had with their first HD AV receiver, endless complaints about it freezing etc.

There's no such thing as a garden shed AV manufacturer, which is why you don't see 30 companies at the Bristol show showing off their latest AV receiver.

 

[ellisdj]

I remember 2 years ago the balance was more even maybe even in favour of AV. Could be wrong on that though. For example Kef demo'd AV speakers sound as well as the LS50 - this year it was the Blade 2's I didnt go in sadly so not sure if they did a multi channel setup as well - a 5.1 etc from blade 2's would have been a good demo idea - Kef you can thank me for that one next year when you do it

B&W demo'd only stereo no multi channel as well. Even the Rel and JL Audio rooms were playing music when I was in there no films and so was the Anthem room - they did have a screen but it was up if I remember?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I remember 2 years ago the balance was more even maybe even in favour of AV. Could be wrong on that though. For example Kef demo'd AV speakers sound as well as the LS50 - this year it was the Blade 2's I didnt go in sadly so not sure if they did a multi channel setup as well

They did a 7.?.4 Atmos demo with R Series. Didn't see the sub/subs, so don't know how many they were using - I would guess there were two by the bass output.

 

[ellisdj]

I remember 2 years ago the balance was more even maybe even in favour of AV. Could be wrong on that though. For example Kef demo'd AV speakers sound as well as the LS50 - this year it was the Blade 2's I didnt go in sadly so not sure if they did a multi channel setup as well

They did a 7.?.4 Atmos demo with R Series. Didn't see the sub/subs, so don't know how many they were using - I would guess there were two by the bass output.

Oh gutted I missed that - qeues were always too big and got the door shut on me on 1 visit as the room was full after waiting 20 minutes

 

[ellisdj]

Was it using upfiring speakers for atmos or ceiling? And what was the demo like?

 

[Frank Harvey]

In addition, I’m just not seeing a commitment from the speaker industry on this. Kef seem to be the only serious speaker player at the moment and even they have only produced a speaker module for one speaker range.

I think speaker manufacturers are going to be hesitant until there are enough suitably equipped AV receivers out there with the necessary formats to support regular sales of Atmos speaker systems.

This slow start is now making me very hesitant to spend a small fortune adopting the technology.

Understandably so. In general, AV enthusiasts have been spending less money these last few years as it is, and the continuing "up in the air" situation with Atmos, DTS:X, and HDCP2.2 have only added to the frustration of customers and dealers (in my opinion). We could be selling Atmos speaker systems and receivers until the cows come home at the moment, but what happens in a year's time when pirchaser's of 4K TVs find out they can't watch 4K Netflix, or add DTS:X to their recently purchased AV receiver or processor? It is bad enough for the customer not knowing what is happening, but even worse that dealers can't recommend any "near futureproof" solutions. I will answer customer's queries about this sort of stuff the best I can, and completely honestly, but none of us can predict the future.

So my question is this:

Do you think Object Orientated Surround formats are a damp squib?

No, I dont. This is quite a step forward, and works quite differently to previous surround formats. Once there's plenty of software available, I'm sure people will be loving the demos and what it (and DTS:X) adds.

To my mind Atmos in the home is failing (maybe not irreversibly, but at least for now) and the success of the whole concept now sits on the shoulders of DTS.

I don't think Atmos is failing as such, I just think it was released way too early to be Im editable and widely adopted, particularly when there's very little software available. The end of this year should've been the release date for Atmos and DTS:X, and for that matter, 4K.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Oh gutted I missed that - qeues were always too big and got the door shut on me on 1 visit as the room was full after waiting 20 minutes

The main problem was that there were less people being let into the room in comparison to last year as they didn't want hordes of people standing around the edges and affecting the result of the Atmos speakers.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Was it using upfiring speakers for atmos or ceiling? And what was the demo like?

They were using their upfiring R50 Atmos speakers. The demo was very good, and using the Dolby demo disc showed exactly what Atmos was bringing to the table in comparison to a standard setup.

 

[Sliced Bread]

...It is bad enough for the customer not knowing what is happening, but even worse that dealers can't recommend any "near futureproof" solutions. I will answer customer's queries about this sort of stuff the best I can, and completely honestly, but none of us can predict the future.

I feel your pain on this. With all the uncertaintly it's hard enough buying at the moment, let alone trying to sell.

I hope the industry stabilized soon.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

I personally believe SQ is largely a result of speaker placement (it plays a big role) - therefore to get proper atmos the speakers need to be in the correct place - therefore upfiring speakers will not be in the correct place and you are relying on the speaker creating an echo / a phantom image, mixed in all with all the other echos already in the room? I dont see how good that can be - I also dont see how that will be any different to the normal multichannel speakers creating the same image if mastered like that because they already do?

Upfiring Atmos speakers, as opposed to in-ceiling Atmos speakers, have a high-frequency notch filter, to trick the brain into thinking that the sound is coming from above. That is why you cannot just use normal bookshelf speakers and angle them upwards.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

I would suggest you demo Marantz SR7009 first before assuming things. And demo a proper Atmos system in a house (not Bristol show). You have this annoying habit of commenting on things you haven't demoed, like recommending Anthem MRX710 over 510 in the past. You're welcome to demo at my house.

I will be doing just that on 23rd March! *dance4*

Other people are welcome to demo my 11.1 Audyssey system in the parlour or my 8.1 system in the kitchen, but nobody makes it to Edinburgh ...... Both at least as good as at the cinema, so there!

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Is the notch filter not enabled within the AVR rather than the speaker?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Upfiring Atmos speakers, as opposed to in-ceiling Atmos speakers, have a high-frequency notch filter, to trick the brain into thinking that the sound is coming from above. That is why you cannot just use normal bookshelf speakers and angle them upwards.

Exactly. The R50s have been designed in conjunction with Atmos to do the job properly (so KEF said at Bristol anyway). You can't just use a speaker firing upwards. Well, you can, but it won't be the same.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Is the notch filter not enabled within the AVR rather than the speaker?

Speaker.

Whether this functionality could be added to future receivers I don't know...but currently it's in the speaker.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Was it using upfiring speakers for atmos or ceiling? And what was the demo like?

They were using their upfiring R50 Atmos speakers. The demo was very good, and using the Dolby demo disc showed exactly what Atmos was bringing to the table in comparison to a standard setup.

From what I've been reading it does sound impressive, though rain drops and leaves are high (ish) frequencies (i.e. reflect well when using the R50's). Did you hear any *fuller* effects from the ceiling speakers and were they convincing?