Is a Blu-Ray player just a transport when using Bitstream?

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Hello all!

I bought an Audiolab M-DAC last year for my HiFi setup, therefore designating my Marantz CD player to just a transport. Can/is this principle be applied to my AV setup? (please note my AV setup and HiFi setup are separate from each other and not connected)

Is it the case that my Sony Blu-Ray player when outputting via bitstream is just acting as a transport, with my AV Receiver doing all the audio conversion?

What about the picture side of things? Is the picture data being sent to my AV Receiver to be decoded OR is my Blu-Ray player doing that?

The reason I ask is that if this is the case for both queries above, then buying a better quality Blu-Ray player could be a waste of money as it is just acting as a transport.

I look forward to your expertise and views!

Setup

Blu-Ray: Sony BDP-S363

AV Receiver: Denon AVR-2310
 

AnotherJoe

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For lossless audio codecs its immaterial which device decodes the audio.

When playing blu-rays recorded at 1080p/24 and output at same the player doesnt do any video processing.

If different resolutions and/or scan rates are to be used then some video processing will be required. So you would want your best kit to do the work.

Some 3D players may also give extra options when playing back 3D content such as affecting the strength of the 3D effect.
 
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Anonymous

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AnotherJoe, thanks for your reply. So are you saying yes to my two queries, that the Blu-Ray is just acting as a transport and the audio and video processing is being done by my AV Receiver?
 
miggyboys said:
Is it the case that my Sony Blu-Ray player when outputting via bitstream is just acting as a transport, with my AV Receiver doing all the audio conversion?

Yes.

What about the picture side of things? Is the picture data being sent to my AV Receiver to be decoded OR is my Blu-Ray player doing that?

For 1080p/24 blu ray films, the AV receiver plays no role as the player does all the job. In my experience, I have not found any difference between blu ray players at different price points in blu ray picture performance. DVD upscaling however, varies between players, & this job can also be done by the AV receiver. More often than not, blu ray player is a better upscaler than a receiver.
 

AnotherJoe

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Audio for lossless is the same whichever device does the decoding (provided they support the codecs).

No video processing is required for 1080p/24 when output on a 1080p/24 tv - if a different resolution/scan rate is used then the video processing can be done via either the bd/av/tv.

Pick the one that has the best video processor - normally the player unless you have a high end av or tv.

Looking at your bd/av it wont make much difference - both are more than fine.
 
D

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miggyboys said:
Hello all!

I bought an Audiolab M-DAC last year for my HiFi setup, therefore designating my Marantz CD player to just a transport. Can/is this principle be applied to my AV setup? (please note my AV setup and HiFi setup are separate from each other and not connected)

Is it the case that my Sony Blu-Ray player when outputting via bitstream is just acting as a transport, with my AV Receiver doing all the audio conversion?

What about the picture side of things? Is the picture data being sent to my AV Receiver to be decoded OR is my Blu-Ray player doing that?

The reason I ask is that if this is the case for both queries above, then buying a better quality Blu-Ray player could be a waste of money as it is just acting as a transport.

I look forward to your expertise and views!

Setup

Blu-Ray: Sony BDP-S363

AV Receiver: Denon AVR-2310

When bitsteaming with my amp I have always heard differences between Blu-ray players. The ones with better DACs have always sounded better.
 
gel said:
When bitsteaming with my amp I have always heard differences between Blu-ray players. The ones with better DACs have always sounded better.

You do realise that when bitstreaming, the DAC of the blu ray player isn't used at all! The Denon 2500BT you auditioned few years ago when you noted improvements, doesn't have a DAC at all as it's a transport!!

DAC = Digital-to-Analogue Converter. When bitstreaming, "sound" is transmitted to the AV receiver digitally for the receiver's DAC to convert into analogue.
 
D

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bigboss said:
gel said:
When bitsteaming with my amp I have always heard differences between Blu-ray players. The ones with better DACs have always sounded better.

You do realise that when bitstreaming, the DAC of the blu ray player isn't used at all! The Denon 2500BT you auditioned few years ago when you noted improvements, doesn't have a DAC at all as it's a transport!!

DAC = Digital-to-Analogue Converter. When bitstreaming, "sound" is transmitted to the AV receiver digitally for the receiver's DAC to convert into analogue.

Definitely sounded different, so did the Pioneer BDP-lx52, only reporting what I have heard.
 
gel said:
bigboss said:
gel said:
When bitsteaming with my amp I have always heard differences between Blu-ray players. The ones with better DACs have always sounded better.

You do realise that when bitstreaming, the DAC of the blu ray player isn't used at all! The Denon 2500BT you auditioned few years ago when you noted improvements, doesn't have a DAC at all as it's a transport!!

DAC = Digital-to-Analogue Converter. When bitstreaming, "sound" is transmitted to the AV receiver digitally for the receiver's DAC to convert into analogue.

Definitely sounded different, so did the Pioneer BDP-lx52, only reporting what I have heard.

It can sound different if the player uses its DAC to convert audio, & not when bitstreaming.
 
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Anonymous

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Gel: 'When bitsteaming with my amp I have always heard differences between Blu-ray players. The ones with better DACs have always sounded better'.

Could this be because some Blu-Ray players are better at obtaining files without errors compared to others? (logically, more expensive players?). This is getting to the crux of my questions and I'd have the same query about video - are some Blu-Ray players better at obtaining image data/files?
 
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Anonymous

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Bigboss & anotherjoe - good points.

However, why is it that WhatHiFi and other magazines state that certain Blu-Ray players had better colour / detail reproduction than others - is this because they're outputting via PCM or via analogue? Surely not? Are they really seeing differences in quality via HDMI / bitstream?
 
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miggyboys said:
Gel: 'When bitsteaming with my amp I have always heard differences between Blu-ray players. The ones with better DACs have always sounded better'.

Could this be because some Blu-Ray players are better at obtaining files without errors compared to others? (logically, more expensive players?). This is getting to the crux of my questions and I'd have the same query about video - are some Blu-Ray players better at obtaining image data/files?

Yes I would agree with somehow the better Blu-ray players are better at delivering the sound better, I recently compared my LX71 against the LX70a the difference was only slight but big enough, especially with music Blu-rays. Definitely when it comes to picture I have seen huge differences. I guess this comes down to the Blu-ray players and each one is Manipulating it different.
 

AnotherJoe

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- Make sure you have the mixing options on the blu-ray player turned off. You will want to avoid the internal mixer so the original sound is output either as bitstream or LPCM.

- Similar story for video - make sure any noise reduction is turned off. You want the original picture to be sent out without any extra processing.

(If you alter these settings for your own preference then differences will occur. This is where high end players differentiate themselves.)

Sound output via hdmi, optical or coaxial does not use the DACs. The DACs in a player would only be used when using the analog outs.
 
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Anonymous

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bigboss said:
miggyboys said:
Is it the case that my Sony Blu-Ray player when outputting via bitstream is just acting as a transport, with my AV Receiver doing all the audio conversion?

Yes.

What about the picture side of things? Is the picture data being sent to my AV Receiver to be decoded OR is my Blu-Ray player doing that?

For 1080p/24 blu ray films, the AV receiver plays no role as the player does all the job. In my experience, I have not found any difference between blu ray players at different price points in blu ray picture performance. DVD upscaling however, varies between players, & this job can also be done by the AV receiver. More often than not, blu ray player is a better upscaler than a receiver.

So to clarify, regarding images, blu-ray 1080p/24 is processed by the AV receiver, not the blu ray player?

What about DVD / standard definition? I have no processing set on my blu ray, as the chipset in my Denon AVR-2310 is superior to my blu ray player. In this case, are the raw native video files being sent to my AV receiver without any playing around by my blu ray player whatsoever?
 

strapped for cash

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Unless you set up your receiver to process the image (which you certainly shouldn't do with 1080/24p content), picture data will pass through your receiver untouched and will be decoded/processed by your TV. You receiver will extract and process the audio data if you're sending it as bitstream from your BDP.

Things are a little different when upscaling lower resolution content. You should experiment and see which component does the best job here (your BDP, AVR, or TV). In all likelihood, you'll be hard pushed to tell the difference between the three, unless perhaps you're viewing images on a huge projector screen.

In other words, I strongly suspect that, unless you're engaging unnecessary image processing somewhere in the video chain, you'll be getting the best out of your equipment picture-wise.
 
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Anonymous

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Can receivers be set up to process/not process different sources i.e. don't process 1080p/24 but do process 1080i (SkyHD) or SD (DVD from blu ray or SD from SkyHD) ?

Upscaling wise, my Denon AVR-2310 definitely upscales the best between my Sony blu ray and Sharp LC-46LE831E TV so it is set to upscale SD sources and my TV and blu ray are set not to upscale anything. I know WhatHiFi recommend upscaling at source but they also say experiment as other components could work better...

Just to state, my picture is exceptional and I calibrated my screen using DVE. I'm just checking how the throughput works and if getting a better blu ray player really makes a difference if another unit is doing the processing/conversion.
 

strapped for cash

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I've no direct experience of your AVR, but I'm certain it will pass through 1080/24p data, while upscaling lower resolution sources.

It's not a case of setting your TV upscale. This happens automatically whenever the TV processes lower than 1080p images. If you're upscaling externally via your BDP or AVR, the TV of course has no upscaling to do.

Have a look through the Denon's manual (or browse the GUI). You should be able to set the output resolution over HDMI. Set this to "1080p" rather than "pass through."

You can then compare the upscaling performance of your BDP, AVR, and TV by switching upscaling on and off. You only want one of these assigned to upscaling duties at any one time.

Start with your BDP: turn upscaling on and allow your AVR to pass through HDMI data untouched.

Then switch the BDP's upscaling off and turn on your AVR's upscaling.

Finally, turn off your BDP and AVR's upscaling to see how the TV performs this same task. As I say, the TV will do this automatically. There's no need to change any settings.

However, you should turn the TV's image processing off when performing all of these comparisons for a more objective test (so disengage DNR, motion processing, and other such "features").

You can then decide which option you're happiest with. I'll be surprised if you can notice much (if any) difference, but it's worth trying, as you never know...
 

professorhat

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strapped for cash said:
Start with your BDP: turn upscaling on and allow your AVR to pass through HDMI data untouched.

Then switch the BDP's upscaling off and turn on your AVR's upscaling.

For clarity, turning upscaling on the Blu-ray player means setting the output to 1080p - clearly this will have no affect on Blu-rays (since they are already at that resolution), only DVDs. For the AVR to upscale, switch the Blu-ray player to output at 576p - again, only do this for DVDs, as otherwise you'll be downscaling Blu-rays to 576p in order for the AVR to upscale them to 1080p. This is clearly going to give you a pretty bad Blu-ray experience!

On standard HDTVs (i.e. 1080p or below resolution), upscaling is only really relevant for DVDs.
 
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Anonymous

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strapped for cash said:
I've no direct experience of your AVR, but I'm certain it will pass through 1080/24p data, while upscaling lower resolution sources.

It's not a case of setting your TV upscale. This happens automatically whenever the TV processes lower than 1080p images. If you're upscaling externally via your BDP or AVR, the TV of course has no upscaling to do.

Have a look through the Denon's manual (or browse the GUI). You should be able to set the output resolution over HDMI. Set this to "1080p" rather than "pass through."

You can then compare the upscaling performance of your BDP, AVR, and TV by switching upscaling on and off. You only want one of these assigned to upscaling duties at any one time.

Start with your BDP: turn upscaling on and allow your AVR to pass through HDMI data untouched.

Then switch the BDP's upscaling off and turn on your AVR's upscaling.

Finally, turn off your BDP and AVR's upscaling to see how the TV performs this same task. As I say, the TV will do this automatically. There's no need to change any settings.

However, you should turn the TV's image processing off when performing all of these comparisons for a more objective test (so disengage DNR, motion processing, and other such "features").

You can then decide which option you're happiest with. I'll be surprised if you can notice much (if any) difference, but it's worth trying, as you never know...

strapped for cash - thanks but I already know how to do this - I'd already stated that my AV Receiver upscales the best out of all three devices.
 
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professorhat said:
For the AVR to upscale, switch the Blu-ray player to output at 576p - again, only do this for DVDs, as otherwise you'll be downscaling Blu-rays to 576p in order for the AVR to upscale them to 1080p.

Professorhat, I wasn't aware that blu ray players had options for setting the upscaling of different resolution media simultaneously. To my knowledge, most players have an 'Auto' setting that works out what resolution the source is and leaves it at that i.e. straight pass through.
 
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Anonymous

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miggyboys said:
Can AV Receivers be set up to upscale/not upscale different sources i.e. don't upscale 1080p/24 from the blu ray player but do upscale SD from the blu ray player or 1080i/SD from the SkyHD box?

If anyone has an answer for this query, I'd be interested in hearing it (note I've clarified the original query).
 
miggyboys said:
professorhat said:
For the AVR to upscale, switch the Blu-ray player to output at 576p - again, only do this for DVDs, as otherwise you'll be downscaling Blu-rays to 576p in order for the AVR to upscale them to 1080p.

Professorhat, I wasn't aware that blu ray players had options for setting the upscaling of different resolution media simultaneously. To my knowledge, most players have an 'Auto' setting that works out what resolution the source is and leaves it at that i.e. straight pass through.

That's another way of doing it.
 
miggyboys said:
miggyboys said:
Can AV Receivers be set up to upscale/not upscale different sources i.e. don't upscale 1080p/24 from the blu ray player but do upscale SD from the blu ray player or 1080i/SD from the SkyHD box?

If anyone has an answer for this query, I'd be interested in hearing it (note I've clarified the original query).

As ProfessorHat explained, an AV receiver cannot upscale a 1080p/24 blu ray disc, as it is already at that resolution when it leaves the blu ray player (& you've set the blu ray player to "auto", I.e., you're not downscaling 1080p/24 picture).

Setting the blu ray player to "auto" would also ensure that DVD pictures are upscaled by the AV receiver.

Again, set the Sky HD box to "auto", & your AV receiver will upscale the pictures.
 

professorhat

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miggyboys said:
professorhat said:
For the AVR to upscale, switch the Blu-ray player to output at 576p - again, only do this for DVDs, as otherwise you'll be downscaling Blu-rays to 576p in order for the AVR to upscale them to 1080p.

Professorhat, I wasn't aware that blu ray players had options for setting the upscaling of different resolution media simultaneously. To my knowledge, most players have an 'Auto' setting that works out what resolution the source is and leaves it at that i.e. straight pass through.

They may well these days - back in the days when I was looking around for a player, this feature was quite rare. It's worth ensuring that's what Auto means though - I've seen a number of devices whereby Auto actually means it detects the resolution of your TV and automatically sets the output as that - so if you had a Full HD TV, then Auto would just mean all output would be at 1080p (Blu-rays and DVDs alike).
 

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