incorrectly matched Ohms?

[BigH]

As for your turntable do NOT stack it on top of your amp that will not be a good idea, best to buy a wall shelf for it if you can.

Is it possible to stack a vinyl player on an amp if there are some sort of spacers in between to let heat dissipate?

Its possible but not recommended, you want the TT on a stable level platform ideally isolated from vibrations.

As for phono stage you can always buy one if the amp does not have one or is not so good, cost about £50-£80 new for Project or Rega.

 

[davedotco]

Love this thread, just bout every bit of advice contradicts every other bit of advice. Magic.

You have a vinyl playback system that works, after a fashion.

1st step, buy the best record player you can afford, not only will it sound better but it will look after your vinyl too. Support it correctly, either a separate table or, probably better, a wall shelf.

2nd step, replace the amplifier, save up until you can afford something that will really make a difference.

3rd step, new speakers, to you choice of course but if you like floorstanders and have the room, start out with a pair of 2050is.

4th step, stop worrying about 'ohms', at this level you will have to be monumentally unlucky to screw this up.

On the other hand you can just buy stuff at random and hope that something sounds better and to your taste.

Good luck with that.

 

[ifor]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

 

[TrevC]

Love this thread, just bout every bit of advice contradicts every other bit of advice. Magic.

You have a vinyl playback system that works, after a fashion.

1st step, buy the best record player you can afford, not only will it sound better but it will look after your vinyl too. Support it correctly, either a separate table or, probably better, a wall shelf.

2nd step, replace the amplifier, save up until you can afford something that will really make a difference.

3rd step, new speakers, to you choice of course but if you like floorstanders and have the room, start out with a pair of 2050is.

4th step, stop worrying about 'ohms', at this level you will have to be monumentally unlucky to screw this up.

On the other hand you can just buy stuff at random and hope that something sounds better and to your taste.

Good luck with that.

Agreed, except it's always speakers and positioning first, because they will make the most dramatic impact on overall sound quality. That's if he doesn't like the overall sound now.

 

[TrevC]

The A400 was about average in its day. Can I ask how much you want to spend on a new amp?

Corrected.

 

[TrevC]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

 

[ifor]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you. So we will have to agree to disagree again. Cheers!

 

[TrevC]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you. So we will have to agree to disagree again. Cheers!

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

 

[andyjm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching describes the theory, sure it may not be operating in its sweet spot but all you will be losing/wasting is a little power.

In the spirit of correcting nonsense on the Internet, the recommended impedance of speakers has nothing to do with optimal energy transfer and 'matching' the output impedance of the amp. The output impedance of an amp is usually a few tenths of an ohm.

Recommended impedance is a function of the current driving capability of the amplifier.

 

[davedotco]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you. So we will have to agree to disagree again. Cheers!

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

That was 'black'.

This is 'white'.

Speakers are essentially passive devices and can not improve on the signal fed to them. The better the speaker the more reveiling it is and in the case of a mediocre signal the better speaker will simply reveal more of this mediocrity than the less good speaker. Sometimes this is so obvious that the 'better' speaker actually sounds worse.

If you take a minute or two to think about what actually happens in a hi-fi system, you will realise I am correct....... 😉

 

[TrevC]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you. So we will have to agree to disagree again. Cheers!

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

That was 'black'.

This is 'white'.

Speakers are essentially passive devices and can not improve on the signal fed to them. The better the speaker the more reveiling it is and in the case of a mediocre signal the better speaker will simply reveal more of this mediocrity than the less good speaker. Sometimes this is so obvious that the 'better' speaker actually sounds worse.

If you take a minute or two to think about what actually happens in a hi-fi system, you will realise I am correct....... 😉

Sorry, you are incorrect. A good loudspeaker on a budget amp will only be constrained volume wise by the amount of power the amplifier can produce. Operated within its power capabilities it wil sound very similar quality wise to any other amplifier, because all modern amplifiers (except valve) have a flat response at minimal distortion throughout the audio band. This is not true of loudspeakers, even expensive ones. If an amp has a very low damping factor it might produce slight resonance peaks in line with the speaker resonances, but that's about it. Valve amplifier users seem to like that!

 

[davedotco]

I don't disagree with that. Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you. So we will have to agree to disagree again. Cheers!

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

That was 'black'.

This is 'white'.

Speakers are essentially passive devices and can not improve on the signal fed to them. The better the speaker the more reveiling it is and in the case of a mediocre signal the better speaker will simply reveal more of this mediocrity than the less good speaker. Sometimes this is so obvious that the 'better' speaker actually sounds worse.

If you take a minute or two to think about what actually happens in a hi-fi system, you will realise I am correct....... 😉

Sorry, you are incorrect. A good loudspeaker on a budget amp will only be constrained volume wise by the amount of power the amplifier can produce. Within its capabilities it wil sound very similar quality wise to any other amplifier, because all amplifiers have a flat response at minimal distortion throughout the audio band. If it has a very low damping factor it might produce slight resonance peaks in line with the speaker resonances, but that's about it. Valve amplifier users seem to like that!

I appreciate your logic but I find the opening premise to be flawed. Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

It also rather depends on what you consider 'sufficiant' power, it is my strong belief that most modern systems are underpowered and that a lot of the time the amplifier is not working 'within it's capabilities', I hear this all the time when listening to other peoples systems, it is also very apparent in many shops.

Furthermore you seem to discount the source too, bear in mind that, in this instance, it is a record player and a very modest one at that. A feel that even a simple Rega or ProJect player would make a huge improvement.

 

[estidog]

Thanks guys for all the advice - I agree new speakers would probably make the most difference, but I will eventually change the whole set up. Right now I do actually need to buy an amp as I need to use my current one for another use. So i will look to get an amp right now second hand.

I don't know if my speakers Eltax Concept 400s are dull or bright, so I'm unsure about the Pioneer. The Marantz PM6010 OSE looks like a good bet. I assume it's better than the Technics SU-V460?

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

 

[TrevC]

Thanks guys for all the advice - I agree new speakers would probably make the most difference, but I will eventually change the whole set up. Right now I do actually need to buy an amp as I need to use my current one for another use. So i will look to get an amp right now second hand.

I don't know if my speakers Eltax Concept 400s are dull or bright, so I'm unsure about the Pioneer. The Marantz PM6010 OSE looks like a good bet. I assume it's better than the Technics SU-V460?

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

What cartridge do you have?

 

[TrevC]

Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

What other qualitative factors are you talking about? I'm talking about budget hifi amps, not junk.

 

[estidog]

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

What cartridge do you have?

Technics P-30 that has probably been on there its whole life. Do cartridges wear out?

 

[busb]

Speakers are the part of a system that interfaces with the room & if all things are equal (which they rarely are) is where much of the budget for a complete new system should be spent. If you start off thinking of upgrading even before you spent a cent, the equation changes. The ideal solution is to have a degree of balance - no sensible soul would put £300 speakers on a system worth thousands although I've seen this at Hi Fi shows & an entirely dishonest way of selling budget speakers it is too!

Any system is only as slightly better than its weakest link which can be any component in the chain but is rarely the cabling - so don't get talked into spending loads on what changes the sound the least. Also before spending a dime, checking stuff like speaker or listening position; removing, checking then refitting cables can make a huge difference for no more outlay than your time. Unless someone has experience listening to your system as setup in your room, it's not easy to recommend what to change unless one item is known to be a lemon.

 

[TrevC]

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

What cartridge do you have?

Technics P-30 that has probably been on there its whole life. Do cartridges wear out?

Any wear will be in the stylus, so perhaps the replacement you have isn't up to scratch, so to speak. Is it a genuine Technics?

 

[Fatboyfive]

If changing speaker cable made such a noticable difference then maybe there was a polarity change which gave the effect and the difference was not so much from the cable. Sorry if someone else already suggested this.

It is tempting to get a better amp, source or speakers, but, whichever you change, it is my experience, and that of many people on this forum, that you will then find something else wanting, and feel the need to change that too, and then the next thing etc. You will then have upgraditis, like many of us. It is a slippery and potentially expensive slope and I am only just about clinging on, until the fever strikes again.

I do not know much about the SL-DD33 turntable, but if it has adjustment possibilities I would recommend checking the tracking weight and anti skate first and moving on from there.

 

[davedotco]

Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

What other qualitative factors are you talking about? I'm talking about budget hifi amps, not junk.

I know what you are getting at here but I think the issue revolves around our definitions of "budget hifi amps" and "junk".

As I said above, I feel the most budget amplifiers are chronically underpowered, an issue not helped by their optimistic power ratings. To my mind they are simply inadequate in (my) hi-fi terms. Not junk, as they can produce a pleasing sound, though to my mind (and ears) not really something that I would consider hi-fi. (I know, we have been here before, but suffice it to say that I personally set the bar a bit higher than some when deciding what is and what is not hi-fi).

I would consider the Creek 50a to be my entry level "hi-fi" amplifier, I have not heard the Brio-R but I found the early Brio models to be very modest performers. On the other hand I find that the Roksan Kandy, whilst powerful enough offers little real insight into the music, much too 'forthright' and lacking in subtlety for my taste.

These are fairly extreme examples of my views which are clearly not in the mainstream and I am very aware of that. Similarly I am also very aware just how similar competent amplifiers can sound in a blind test, something that strongly supports your views. Equally, and not at all consistently, I find some amplifiers communicate far better than others, particularly when thy are in regular use.

From a scientific point of view I find that inconvenient and, to a degree perplexing. I do not understand what is happening but over very many years I have discovered that this is how things are for me, you and everyone else may well here things differently.

Back on topic, I remain convinced that the modern emphasis towards the speakers is simply wrong. I am well aware of the big differences one can hear between speakers but if we leave the 'junk' out of the discussion, I find most of the differences to be in the way that music is presented, rather than any real difference in the capabilities of the speaker.

Edit for spelling.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Some heat generated her?

I suggest considering yr total budget likey in the next few years and keep yr tt or upgrade it and cartridge/stylus to suit the budget. IMO, using a badly set up deck can do nothing but compromise any future investment. After that? You may get a better deal by buying amp & speakers together but otherwise probably speakers first.I recon amps are important but not as critical maybe. Money spent on cables at anything but med/high end kit will be wasted. Positioning, room acoustics & a decent tt platform are important and not necessarily expensive. Thats my two penneth. Good luck deceiphering all this advice.

 

[busb]

Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

What other qualitative factors are you talking about? I'm talking about budget hifi amps, not junk.

<snipped>

Back on topic, I remain convinced that the modern emphasis towards the speakers is simply wrong. I am well aware of the big differences one can hear between speakers but if we leave the 'junk' out of the discussion, I find most of the differences to be in the way that music is presented, rather than any real difference in the capabilities of the speaker.

Hi Dave

Could you expand on your idea regarding the difference between "presented" & "capabilities" in this context? We may disagree on the importance of speakers but they are only as good as the amp driving them, IMO. In other words, upgrading an amp can make a big improvement to the SQ by getting the best (or better) out of speakes.

 

[matt49]

Similarly I am also very aware just how similar competent amplifiers can sound in a blind test, something that strongly supports your views.

There was a blind ABX amp test on the PFM forum over the summer, using two Naim models at different price points. The test grew out of precisely this sort of debate, i.e. whether or not amps sound different when working well within their stated operational limits. The test methodology was designed collaboratively by representatives of both ‘factions’ in the debate, and both sides confirmed before the test that the test met their methodological strictures. All agreed that both amps had been operating within their comfort zone and were properly level matched.

The result of the test was that the participants did distinguish between the two amps to a statistically meaningful degree, though it was also interesting that there wasn't unanimity about which amp sounded 'better'.

After the test there was a short burst of triumphalist crowing from the ‘amps sound different’ camp, quite a lot of objections were raised by the ‘amps sound the same’ camp, and one of the most vocal of the latter camp (who’d been involved in the design of the test) went off in a huff and stopped posting on PFM.

I wouldn’t say this ‘proves’ anything about amps (after all it was only one test), but it was very interesting on a sociological level. For one thing, it suggested that people who held very different views were good at collaboratively organizing a means to resolve their differences but were quite unable to deal with the fall-out.

 

[davedotco]

@matt69

I do not think I have ever said that I think all amplifiers sound the same.

The phrase I use is the one above, that I am "aware just how similar competent amplifiers can sound in a blind test".

In the context of this thread I was explaining how I thought that many budget amplifiers are underpowered in real world situations and are therefore not operating within their design parameters. Much of the time what you are hearing is the sound of clipping, sagging power supplies and poorly controlled bass drivers.

By those criterea the amplifiers are not, to my mind, competent.

@busb

To my mind 'presentation' is all about how a speaker sounds. Is it bright or dark, does it have more or less bass, shouty or laid back, soundstage wide or narrow etc, etc, just a few obvious examples.

These characteristics will often vary with speaker setup, room placement, different rooms and even the taste of the listener.

'Capability' on the other hand is something more fundamental, the ability of the loudspeaker to convincingly convey the music in such a way that you get a better insight into the performance, in the parlance of this forum, 'more involving'.

I gave up being much bothered with 'presentational' issus many years ago, as I said above it is not consistent from room to room, setup to setup and is largely unhelpful when evaluating speakers. Listen to the music, not the sound it makes.

As an aside.

Some years ago a loudspeaker manufacturer explained it like this.

"Imagine you go to a concert and find that the band (orchestra whatever) is not very good. You can move your seat elswhere in the hall and the sound changes each time you move, but the quality of the performance stays the same".

 

[matt49]

@matt69

I do not think I have ever said that I think all amplifiers sound the same.

Indeed, I took you as meaning that they don't. I was just picking up on your reference to blind testing.