In Retrospect . . . ?

[CJSF]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

 

[davedotco]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

Depending on your stance in such matters, the AVI DM5 is almost 3/5a size and reputed to offer outstanding clarity and fine imaging.

Active of course so you may need to rethink your setup, but not at all expensive.

Otherwise Harbeth or Spendor I would guess.

 

[BigH]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

Depending on your stance in such matters, the AVI DM5 is almost 3/5a size and reputed to offer outstanding clarity and fine imaging.

Active of course so you may need to rethink your setup, but not at all expensive.

Otherwise Harbeth or Spendor I would guess.

i believe the dm5s are somewhat smaller and if he wants more bass probably not right for him.

 

[davedotco]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

Depending on your stance in such matters, the AVI DM5 is almost 3/5a size and reputed to offer outstanding clarity and fine imaging.

Active of course so you may need to rethink your setup, but not at all expensive.

Otherwise Harbeth or Spendor I would guess.

i believe the dm5s are somewhat smaller and if he wants more bass probably not right for him.

You may be right, I have not heard the DM5s so can not really comment.

Reports on the AVI website, from real users, rarely comment on lack of bass though clearly there will be physical limitations.

Bass response in small speakers is very subjective, just how well is it faked?

Another thought would be one of the small ATC models with one of those pro power amps being discussed elsewhere,

This perhaps......

At 375wpc it just about makes up for the (lack of) sensitivity of the ATCs. Cheap too, under £500.

 

[Electro]

Hi CJSF,

I would recommend a second hand PMC DB1i 's or PMC TB2i 's .

http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/pmc-db1i-pound;770/9493

The TB2i should be better with a valve amp at 8 ohms and 90db but the smaller DB1i is often described as an LS35A with bass ! Either should work very well .

If you want to buy new then the PMC 21 OR 22 should fit the bill .

All of these should improve the imaging of you system especially the DB1i's and the PMC 21's .

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/twenty21%20review%20hifi%20news_web.pdf

 

[FanthorpesHiFi]

The relatively new D1 from Spendor is a remarkable little standmount. I think you may also like the Harbeth range as these are a design based upon near field monitoring with exceptional vocal reproduction. I would also consider the Twenty21 or Twenty22 from PMC. The dispersion is still very wide from these, giving that large sweet spot you've mentioned. The 22s will also give you an extra depth of bass.

 

[CnoEvil]

My suggestions would revolve around the following brands:

Kef (LS50 has great imaging, with a detailed, but musical sound)

Harbeth

Spendor (Classic / D1)

Sonus Faber

Proac

Opera

 

[CJSF]

OK chaps, I see where you are coming from, my local'ish friendly dealer stocks PMC and Harbeth, unfortunatly not Spendor . . . although its not to far to get a listen? It realy is the extra image I want, keeping curent bass levels if possible? As I believe PMC's philosiphy is still along the lines of transmission line, I should at least try the new designs to see where they fit?

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

My suggestions would revolve around the following brands:

Kef (LS50 has great imaging, with a detailed, but musical sound)

Harbeth

Spendor (Classic / D1)

Sonus Faber

Proac

Opera

That list has interest Con, I have pussy footed around the LS50 for a long while. Spendor and Harbeth take me back to my roots, I remember Sonas Faber being launched and Proac Tablets were my first proper hifi speaker in the late 70's! In fact, they were the first speaker I worked with when developing my original classic 'Foundation Stand'. Opera is the only one that does not ring any bells for me.

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

That list has interest Con, I have pussy footed around the LS50 for a long while. Spendor and Harbeth take me back to my roots, I remember Sonas Faber being launched and Proac Tablets were my first proper hifi speaker in the late 70's! In fact, they were the first speaker I worked with when developing my original classic 'Foundation Stand'. Opera is the only one that does not ring any bells for me.

CJSF

IMO. The LS50s are a "must listen", as they redefine what can be had for £800.

Proac is interesting, as it has been designed with Valves in mind.

Harbeth should be on the demo list of anybody who is into the acoustic side of things.

Opera is my wild card (voiced to work with sister company Unison Research), in case you have the oportunity to have a listen.

 

[plastic penguin]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

CJ, clearly imaging is the weaker area, in your opinion. Try and blag a pair of Totem Arros or Rainmakers. In terms of imaging they are spankingly good (in this area they beat my TB2is), and should work a treat with your valve amp.

 

[Macspur]

Hi CJ,

I really feel Harbeth will suit you to a Tee and hopefully you'll get a chance to hear the new SHL5+.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[CJSF]

All good advise, thanks. I will be doing some reading and listening, then some thinking . . . then some more listening . . . at home! I'm lucky I have known Dave, my local'ish dealer since the late 70's, he will be happy to let me do my home dem, my original Proac Tabletts came from him.

CJSF

 

[stevebrock]

sorry to chip in Cliff, obviuosly your looking at standmounts - with the ST40 personally I would be looking Totem Rainmaker, Spendor D1, LS50 - my money on the Totems.

In actual fact due to my impending domestic upheaval soon (a newborn) my listening room is being downsized - not sure if the Kudos X2 will work in that room - and quite possibly I will be looking at a 'quality' standmount £1000-1500. The Rainmakers really are appealing, but also the Spendor D1. Heard so much about the LS50 too - not taken by the looks though.

Like yourself Cliff I dont need or want loads of bass, imaging is more important to me and a sound I love - obviously. The ST40 really does blow me away everytime I fire it up!

Let us know how things progress Cliff, but really think lots of demos at home is the key? It is the way I will be going.

 

[lindsayt]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

Depending on your stance in such matters, the AVI DM5 is almost 3/5a size and reputed to offer outstanding clarity and fine imaging.

Active of course so you may need to rethink your setup, but not at all expensive.

Otherwise Harbeth or Spendor I would guess.

i believe the dm5s are somewhat smaller and if he wants more bass probably not right for him.

You may be right, I have not heard the DM5s so can not really comment.

Reports on the AVI website, from real users, rarely comment on lack of bass though clearly there will be physical limitations.

Bass response in small speakers is very subjective, just how well is it faked?

Another thought would be one of the small ATC models with one of those pro power amps being discussed elsewhere,

This perhaps......

At 375wpc it just about makes up for the (lack of) sensitivity of the ATCs. Cheap too, under £500.

If you've not heard the DM5's why are you recommending them?

If it's on the basis of what you've read on the AVI site / forum why are you recommending them?

Why not, for example recommend Linn, as real users on the Linn forum report great things about Linn speakers?

If CJSF wants to try some small standmounts I think he should give some Royds a go. He might like them. He might not.

 

[stevebrock]

I dont think people realise - Cliff has a Valve amp - active speakers have no place on this thread

 

[matthewpiano]

I would certainly be considering Harbeths which have always been immensely pleasing when I've heard them in the past. I have, however, liked most PMCs I've heard and there could be something in retaining aspects of the sound you already have but with a sharper sense of focus/stability in the soundstaging.

Just a thought... Would it be worth speaking to Icon Audio about what they would suggest? I understand they make/supply some 'made for valves' speakers themselves, so perhaps there is an avenue to explore. I don't know what they are like at all, but it would just seem a logical thread to add to your investigations, particularly as they are a smaller and more approachable company than many amp makers.

 

[stevebrock]

Would it be worth speaking to Icon Audio about what they would suggest? I understand they make/supply some 'made for valves' speakers themselves, so perhaps there is an avenue to explore

I see where your coming from - but suggestions from Icon..... of course they are going to suggest there speakers!

But Speakers are very very subjective - Clive go listen, listen at home, listen more etc etc

 

[davedotco]

I've gone through all the TT upgrades, as well as amplifier and upgrade that I want to afford. Recently making a very simple valve change that opened a door to the next level of upgrading. However, after much thought I have the feling I might just be chasing my tail . . . I'm wondering if the speakers are holding my system back?

They are, circa early 90's PMC LB1, excelent in their day, with amazing bass considering they are stand mounted. Over all a tidy sounding speaker. They originaly replaced my LS35a's, a remarkable classic speaker of shoe box proportion, I worked on some special stands extraced the maximum from the 35a. But they lacked in the bass end, the LB1 blows them away in that depart ment.

So where are we going, 35a's always had a superb image capability, you could stand or sit almost anywhere in my music studio and hear a true performance and image placement. The LB1 has always lacked in this area, it has a sweet spot, sit in the sweet spot and all is fine, move off and things get a bit weighted left or right?

Any sugestion where to look, still require stand mounted, I have 'almost' pressed the trigger a couple of times on 35a's in the past 6 months, its the bass end that holds me back and I'm not comfortable with SH speakers, the modern Harberth equivelent is a posibility? I have herd the 35a with bass extender cabinet, I was not impressed.

Any pointers, I have little knowledge of moder speakers?

CJSF

Depending on your stance in such matters, the AVI DM5 is almost 3/5a size and reputed to offer outstanding clarity and fine imaging.

Active of course so you may need to rethink your setup, but not at all expensive.

Otherwise Harbeth or Spendor I would guess.

i believe the dm5s are somewhat smaller and if he wants more bass probably not right for him.

You may be right, I have not heard the DM5s so can not really comment.

Reports on the AVI website, from real users, rarely comment on lack of bass though clearly there will be physical limitations.

Bass response in small speakers is very subjective, just how well is it faked?

Another thought would be one of the small ATC models with one of those pro power amps being discussed elsewhere,

This perhaps......

At 375wpc it just about makes up for the (lack of) sensitivity of the ATCs. Cheap too, under £500.

If you've not heard the DM5's why are you recommending them?

If it's on the basis of what you've read on the AVI site / forum why are you recommending them?

Why not, for example recommend Linn, as real users on the Linn forum report great things about Linn speakers?

If CJSF wants to try some small standmounts I think he should give some Royds a go. He might like them. He might not.

I made it quite clear that I had not heard the speakers, I am very familiiar ADM9s, speakers that have certain characteristics that should suit the OP so thought it worth a mention.

Apologies if my logic offends you.

In addition I had not taken note of ther OP's amplifier, which would probably rule out actives in any case.

 

[lindsayt]

What, you mean CJSF is looking for uninvolving, flat, boring, unmusical speakers?

 

[CJSF]

What, you mean CJSF is looking for uninvolving, flat, boring, unmusical speakers?

I'm looking for a final sound that is natural, that gives me a reality of performance, if its not on the recording at source, I dont want someone elses idea of what music should sound like from their speakers, the word is colouration. This means I get the true ups and downs of emotion in the recording, anything else is false.

A very good guage I find is spoken voice on BBC radio, especialy plays, the actor only has voice inflections to work with to be convincing.

A well recorded play can be most involving, as can a well recorded musical performance, 'if it aint broke dont fix it' . . . ?

CJSF

 

[Craig M.]

I'm looking for a final sound that is natural, that gives me a reality of performance, if its not on the recording at source, I dont want someone elses idea of what music should sound like from their speakers, the word is colouration. This means I get the true ups and downs of emotion in the recording, anything else is false.

A very good guage I find is spoken voice on BBC radio, especialy plays, the actor only has voice inflections to work with to be convincing.

A well recorded play can be most involving, as can a well recorded musical performance, 'if it aint broke dont fix it' . . . ?

CJSF

You'd probably like AVI then, great clarity and a real sense that they aren't messing with the music too much.

 

[davedotco]

I'm looking for a final sound that is natural, that gives me a reality of performance, if its not on the recording at source, I dont want someone elses idea of what music should sound like from their speakers, the word is colouration. This means I get the true ups and downs of emotion in the recording, anything else is false.

A very good guage I find is spoken voice on BBC radio, especialy plays, the actor only has voice inflections to work with to be convincing.

A well recorded play can be most involving, as can a well recorded musical performance, 'if it aint broke dont fix it' . . . ?

CJSF

You'd probably like AVI then, great clarity and a real sense that they aren't messing with the music too much.

I'm getting the sense from CJSF that the 'BBC' style might be very much to his taste. The midband in particular has a quality that can be hard to find elsewhere.

Active speakers can help in this area by tidying up the response around the crossover, midband clarity is the result and it was this thought that prompted my suggestion of DM5s, given the opening posts.

Using an active configuration may also help the dynamic response and bass control, directly connected amplifiers will usually do that, but given CJSF's choice of amplifier, I can see it would difficult to implement this choice.

 

[matt49]

Using an active configuration may also help the dynamic response and bass control, directly connected amplifiers will usually do that, but given CJSF's choice of amplifier, I can see it would difficult to implement this choice.

I'd have thought it's a complete non-starter. CJSF has a valve amp he's very happy with and has written about at length in many threads, including the first post in this thread.

Matt

 

[Sospri]

Using an active configuration may also help the dynamic response and bass control, directly connected amplifiers will usually do that, but given CJSF's choice of amplifier, I can see it would difficult to implement this choice.

I'd have thought it's a complete non-starter. CJSF has a valve amp he's very happy with and has written about at length in many threads, including the first post in this thread.

Matt

Well you know the AVI boys, any mension of a speaker thread and they all decsend irrespective of what the OP is asking...........