In Retrospect . . . ?

[davedotco]

No, Dave doesn't bang the active drum, but he's clever in that he'll often make a reference towards AVis. All very subtle.

I have no qualms with actives, just object to certain owners, (almost) regardless of the subject they'll bring actives into the fold. If you mention you prefer passives, oh lordy, what an insult to the whole music world. No doubt they will tell teacher (Ash); the active brigade have passive voodoo dolls while simultaneously stick pins thru them.

One of the many accusations about passive owners: They have no clue about music/hi-fi; they are mugs to spend so much money when they can get soooo much more blah blah blah...

Care to expand on that.....?

As for the rest, that is nonsense as far as I am concerned. If I have an agenda, it is simply that I find most conventional and mostly highly regarded budget and mid-range hi-fi, to be mediocre and uninspiring. I go out of my way to find and recommend alternatives to what I regard as the 'usual suspects'.

Yes I will. (Not the Hollies song)

Of all the posts I've read of yours (not too many as I don't fully understand English), I'm hard pushed to think of where you haven't mentioned the dreaded 'A' set-up. Whether someone wants to know about which speakers then you'll bring in (on occasions) the 'A' crossover is subtlely dropped in etc etc.

Never said you had an agenda, only that you can't help yourself breezing some sort of reference towards the 'A' configuration.

When you say "'A'" are you talking about AVI specifically or active speakers in general?

I really do not feel that I hype AVI as a brand, but I do 'go on' about active speakers in general. There are a lot of people who post on here who have certain issues, usually bass related, where the active option (inexpensive studio monitors) offer an excellent solution. They offer fine value for money, particularly when they can be driven directly from a computer or streamer.

Active crossovers are often mentioned too, in this particular case their ability to 'tidy up' the response around the crossover can give increased clarity in the midband, something CJSF appears to consider important.

By the way, your written english is excellent, it never occurred to me that English was mot your first language!

Yes 'A' is for active. And yes, born and bred in Southern England.

I was tagging you along a little, hence the reference to Voodoo dolls and so on and so forth.

BTW, my King's English is still c##p. *blum3*

As others have said, let's get back to CJ's issue of speakers (passive ones). *pleasantry*

.

PS. Bjorn Again, playing live in Kew Gardens. just across the river from my current home.

Ahhh... you must live close to the Mecca of linen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he32H-lQo7s

Not arf....

Indeed, though they are of course long gone.

The developements along the river, where we are, naturally refer to their location as 'Kew Reach', the 'B' word rarely passes our lips. Snobbish or what.......*wacko*

The concerts in Kew Gardens are directly across the river from us, just a few hundred yards from our appartment as the duck flies. Singing along to 'Fernando' at one point, mrs DDC has to tuck Lucy (see sig) up in bed before the fireworks at the end. Scaredy cat.

 

[davedotco]

Great respons, much food for thought . . .

Hear I sit, almost 3 o'clock on Friday morning, I have made a minor change to my amplifier, first it was the Sylvania onion valves, that was enough to get me thinking and post the thread, now I have gone a tad further, a little excentricity I supose . . . the music is engrosing.

I realy must go to bed . . . soon. Hazel is still up, just bought the Horlicks in, Emmylou Harris curently playing, track; 'Making Believe'.

CJSF

The synergy here must be pretty good, you have to be pretty careful not to **** it up trying to improve things. I have seen and done that far too often......*stop*

In this situation, sometimes you might be better off with a bit of general tweaking rather than a big change, I was very taken with the DB1 Gold when I heard them, great vfm but they do need a good system to really shine. Not at all sure how they compare to your current speakers but I am thinking 'similar but better' would be a good thing, if that is indeed the case.

On the other hand, I like the Motion 15s, though I have only heard them in a shop. Very civilised though still just a touch 'american'. They do not appear to suffer from the usual excess bass problem that dogs many US designs and their higher than normal sensitivity may be a bonus.

Despite my (apparant) reputation as an active nut, I am in fact very wide ranging in my tastes, the only thing I really have no time for is the mass market crud that passes for hi-fi in the budget and mid market area.

Saw Emmylou a few times over the years, the Hammersmith concerts with the first Hot Band stands out in the memory, James Burton has to be one of the best ever......!

 

[Sospri]

Using an active configuration may also help the dynamic response and bass control, directly connected amplifiers will usually do that, but given CJSF's choice of amplifier, I can see it would difficult to implement this choice.

I'd have thought it's a complete non-starter. CJSF has a valve amp he's very happy with and has written about at length in many threads, including the first post in this thread.

Matt

i was trying to be non-judgemental. had I been more aware of the OP's preference for valves, (not that clear in the opening post as I missed the reference to 'valve change'), I probably would not have mentioned them at all.

That said CJSF does talk about the 3/5a rather fondly and we all know that it's strengths is very much in the midrange, an area where active speakers often excell.

As for the idea that I push AVI at every opportunity, I think that very unfair, I often try to suggest less well known equipment where I feel it to be appropriate.

Maybe I should just stick with the herd, get a Marantz and some of those nice Monitor Audios.....*unknw*

I was not reffering to you Dave at all............

 

[davedotco]

Using an active configuration may also help the dynamic response and bass control, directly connected amplifiers will usually do that, but given CJSF's choice of amplifier, I can see it would difficult to implement this choice.

I'd have thought it's a complete non-starter. CJSF has a valve amp he's very happy with and has written about at length in many threads, including the first post in this thread.

Matt

i was trying to be non-judgemental. had I been more aware of the OP's preference for valves, (not that clear in the opening post as I missed the reference to 'valve change'), I probably would not have mentioned them at all.

That said CJSF does talk about the 3/5a rather fondly and we all know that it's strengths is very much in the midrange, an area where active speakers often excell.

As for the idea that I push AVI at every opportunity, I think that very unfair, I often try to suggest less well known equipment where I feel it to be appropriate.

Maybe I should just stick with the herd, get a Marantz and some of those nice Monitor Audios.....*unknw*

I was not reffering to you Dave at all............

Then why quote me.......*unknw*

I was the one recommending AVIs, though had I known CJSF's system and history I probably would not have done so.

 

[Sospri]

I didn't, if you care to look I was quoting Matt...........

 

[davedotco]

I didn't, if you care to look I was quoting Matt...........

Who was quoting me......*unknw*

I took it as a bit of a dig, but if it was not meant then I accept that and move on.

 

[Sospri]

That's fine, I accept your apology............

 

[davedotco]

That's fine, I accept your apology............

*mosking*

 

[BigH]

Ipswich hey, I would suggest Harbeths maybe worth trying, think nearest dealer to you is near Saffron Walden, they may have a few other speakers to try as well.

 

[richardw42]

That's fine, I accept your apology............

*mosking*

What a gent

 

[CJSF]

The synergy here must be pretty good, you have to be pretty careful not to **** it up trying to improve things. I have seen and done that far too often......*stop*

You have hit the nail on the head Dave, 'synergy' is what my system building has been about, one has had to be honest and go back on ocassions. The little tweakes so often work, one wonders why, the are, as last night, about feeling coming from the music, the changes are usualy small and come slowly, nothing between the eyes.

The changes last night were as I say a bit excentric, the new Sylvania are essntialy sverical at 58mm, a lot of glass that can 'sing'. I did not think mine were a problem, sounded good, but, me being me aspecialy as I could easily go back. I tried a 52x3mm, silicone valve damping ring. The initial problem was to get them to stay in place . . . we won in the end.

The effect was as described above 'a feeling', the sound became very retro, warm, like valves used to be, but then the detail started to pop out, hearing instuments I did not know were on the recording, a much more intigrated over all sound. This was particularly plesarable with a Proprius pipe organ recording I have, the organ had pipes behind pipes that I was not aware of. The timbre of the pipes was beautiful. one started to become aware of the way the organist was playing, something I have noticed on other Organ recordings but not on this one, although it is my favourit.

So now we have a very valvey sound, but with bags of tiny detail, the image has improved but still has a sweet spot. Next step, have a word with my friendly dealer, borrow a couple of pairs of speakers and see where this might point?

Initialy, Harbeths and small PMC's, as pointers . . . from there we can widen the search, it may be the room of course?

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Ipswich hey, I would suggest Harbeths maybe worth trying, think nearest dealer to you is near Saffron Walden, they may have a few other speakers to try as well.

Thats it BigH, I have known Dave Wren since the 70's, he had a shop in Radlet in those days with funny opening hours, he had a propper job to keep the wolf away from the door! Dave was my hifi guru when I was designing the first Foundation Classic speaker stands, then, simply for my own use with the Proac Tablets.

There is also Signals HiFi who I get on with very well, only a few minuites around the corner from me, not a Harbeth dealer last time I looked, but they may have some of the other sugestions?

CJSF

 

[davedotco]

The synergy here must be pretty good, you have to be pretty careful not to **** it up trying to improve things. I have seen and done that far too often......*stop*

You have hit the nail on the head Dave, 'synergy' is what my system building has been about, one has had to be honest and go back on ocassions. The little tweakes so often work, one wonders why, the are, as last night, about feeling coming from the music, the changes are usualy small and come slowly, nothing between the eyes.

The changes last night were as I say a bit excentric, the new Sylvania are essntialy sverical at 58mm, a lot of glass that can 'sing'. I did not think mine were a problem, sounded good, but, me being me aspecialy as I could easily go back. I tried a 52x3mm, silicone valve damping ring. The initial problem was to get them to stay in place . . . we won in the end.

The effect was as described above 'a feeling', the sound became very retro, warm, like valves used to be, but then the detail started to pop out, hearing instuments I did not know were on the recording, a much more intigrated over all sound. This was particularly plesarable with a Proprius pipe organ recording I have, the organ had pipes behind pipes that I was not aware of. The timbre of the pipes was beautiful. one started to become aware of the way the organist was playing, something I have noticed on other Organ recordings but not on this one, although it is my favourit.

So now we have a very valvey sound, but with bags of tiny detail, the image has improved but still has a sweet spot. Next step, have a word with my friendly dealer, borrow a couple of pairs of speakers and see where this might point?

Initialy, Harbeths and small PMC's, as pointers . . . from there we can widen the search, it may be the room of course?

CJSF

This is both the delight and the frustration of valves. My amp uses relatively inexpensive Electro Harmonix output valves which I swapped for some more expensive models, but ended up back with the originals. Just more 'together', coherent if you like.

The trick is to stop the fiddling, the endless bias tweaking (those bl**dy meters) and get on with it. Living in Andalusia the mains was an issue, quite variable, very easy to get into constant tweaking, at one point I was considering one of those mains reconstruction supplies to get a nice regular 230v.

The trick, as always is to get the balance right, I had a style of setting up a system that I considered 'best practice' and tried to leave it at that.

 

[CJSF]

The synergy here must be pretty good, you have to be pretty careful not to **** it up trying to improve things. I have seen and done that far too often......*stop*

You have hit the nail on the head Dave, 'synergy' is what my system building has been about, one has had to be honest and go back on ocassions. The little tweakes so often work, one wonders why, the are, as last night, about feeling coming from the music, the changes are usualy small and come slowly, nothing between the eyes.

The changes last night were as I say a bit excentric, the new Sylvania are essntialy sverical at 58mm, a lot of glass that can 'sing'. I did not think mine were a problem, sounded good, but, me being me aspecialy as I could easily go back. I tried a 52x3mm, silicone valve damping ring. The initial problem was to get them to stay in place . . . we won in the end.

The effect was as described above 'a feeling', the sound became very retro, warm, like valves used to be, but then the detail started to pop out, hearing instuments I did not know were on the recording, a much more intigrated over all sound. This was particularly plesarable with a Proprius pipe organ recording I have, the organ had pipes behind pipes that I was not aware of. The timbre of the pipes was beautiful. one started to become aware of the way the organist was playing, something I have noticed on other Organ recordings but not on this one, although it is my favourit.

So now we have a very valvey sound, but with bags of tiny detail, the image has improved but still has a sweet spot. Next step, have a word with my friendly dealer, borrow a couple of pairs of speakers and see where this might point?

Initialy, Harbeths and small PMC's, as pointers . . . from there we can widen the search, it may be the room of course?

CJSF

This is both the delight and the frustration of valves. My amp uses relatively inexpensive Electro Harmonix output valves which I swapped for some more expensive models, but ended up back with the originals. Just more 'together', coherent if you like.

The trick is to stop the fiddling, the endless bias tweaking (those bl**dy meters) and get on with it. Living in Andalusia the mains was an issue, quite variable, very easy to get into constant tweaking, at one point I was considering one of those mains reconstruction supplies to get a nice regular 230v.

The trick, as always is to get the balance right, I had a style of setting up a system that I considered 'best practice' and tried to leave it at that.

Same route on valves Dave, tried the expensive out put jobies, £300 -£400 a quad set, frankly one was not impressed, I now use Sovtek KT88, £25 each. I have to say the Silvania onions were pricy at £50 each, these were bought when I was trying the expensive output valves, beleiving at the time, 'price equaled quality'. We live and learn.*smile*

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

. . . so the answeres have dried up? I supose I will start with the PMC 21's and Harbeth modern type 35a (cant remember the designation). This is not throwing any of the sugestions out, but one has to have a base to start from.

Seems some of the speakers are not too efficient . . . any views on this in relation to my curent valve amps, 20 or 40 watt switchable . . . Curently driving my PMC LB1 at 20 watts in triode mode through the 4ohm output, the LB1's are listed at 87. I have tried the 8ohm terminals, 4 sounds much better.

CJSF

 

[davedotco]

. . . so the answeres have dried up? I supose I will start with the PMC 21's and Harbeth modern type 35a (cant remember the designation). This is not throwing any of the sugestions out, but one has to have a base to start from.

Seems some of the speakers are not too efficient . . . any views on this in relation to my curent valve amps, 20 or 40 watt switchable . . . Curently driving my PMC LB1 at 20 watts in triode mode through the 4ohm output, the LB1's are listed at 87. I have tried the 8ohm terminals, 4 sounds much better.

CJSF

I think that, given your obvious preferences, all the obvious recommendations have been made.

it is really hard to see past the Harbeth/Spendor 'post BBC' designs, maybe the odd Proac or PMC but then, the Fact models leave me unenthused. I find the cheaper Sonus Faber models not entirely to my taste, there are a few pairs of NOS Liutos around if you can find them but maybe you do not have the space. The smaller ATCs are horribly insensitive the affordable Kefs and B&Ws lack, well, pretty much everything so it becomes quite difficult.

The Audiosmile Kensai have a reputation in some quarters but are pretty insensitive, my own speakers are comparable sensitivity wise, both about 3dB down on your PMCs. I use my setup in pentode mode having convinced myself that I need the power, but i find that anything that required both power and presence to be a little lacking.

Being something of a cheapskate i would look hard at the Motion 15s, can I live with their lack of neutrality balanced against their engaging quality and excellent sensitivity, that would be my first call.

 

[CJSF]

. . . so the answeres have dried up? I supose I will start with the PMC 21's and Harbeth modern type 35a (cant remember the designation). This is not throwing any of the sugestions out, but one has to have a base to start from.

Seems some of the speakers are not too efficient . . . any views on this in relation to my curent valve amps, 20 or 40 watt switchable . . . Curently driving my PMC LB1 at 20 watts in triode mode through the 4ohm output, the LB1's are listed at 87. I have tried the 8ohm terminals, 4 sounds much better.

CJSF

I think that, given your obvious preferences, all the obvious recommendations have been made.

it is really hard to see past the Harbeth/Spendor 'post BBC' designs, maybe the odd Proac or PMC but then, the Fact models leave me unenthused. I find the cheaper Sonus Faber models not entirely to my taste, there are a few pairs of NOS Liutos around if you can find them but maybe you do not have the space. The smaller ATCs are horribly insensitive the affordable Kefs and B&Ws lack, well, pretty much everything so it becomes quite difficult.

The Audiosmile Kensai have a reputation in some quarters but are pretty insensitive, my own speakers are comparable sensitivity wise, both about 3dB down on your PMCs. I use my setup in pentode mode having convinced myself that I need the power, but i find that anything that required both power and presence to be a little lacking.

Being something of a cheapskate i would look hard at the Motion 15s, can I live with their lack of neutrality balanced against their engaging quality and excellent sensitivity, that would be my first call.

Thanks for your reply Dave . . . it sort of confirms the way my mind has been running over the weekend, limited choice because of my preferances. Makes me feel a bit, 'why bother'? I dont like the way modern hifi has gon, I'm not going to be forced down a route I dont like and am not comfortable with. Stick to what I know and might like, there is also limited choice because of dealerships, or lack of them in deepest Suffolk, carrot crunchers out here . . .

I'm going to play with my system a little more too, already opend the sweet spot a little with the valve rings, I can hear modern young hifi'ers laughing at that one . . . but the 'black art' of tweaking and tuning systems, particularly valve systems is live and well in the East Anglian out-back. I've done my own thing before, I'm about to do it again it seems, swim against the flow.*clapping*

Harbeth, PMC, Proac, Spendor, hear we come . . . ??????????????????????

CJSF

 

[davedotco]

. . . so the answeres have dried up? I supose I will start with the PMC 21's and Harbeth modern type 35a (cant remember the designation). This is not throwing any of the sugestions out, but one has to have a base to start from.

Seems some of the speakers are not too efficient . . . any views on this in relation to my curent valve amps, 20 or 40 watt switchable . . . Curently driving my PMC LB1 at 20 watts in triode mode through the 4ohm output, the LB1's are listed at 87. I have tried the 8ohm terminals, 4 sounds much better.

CJSF

I think that, given your obvious preferences, all the obvious recommendations have been made.

it is really hard to see past the Harbeth/Spendor 'post BBC' designs, maybe the odd Proac or PMC but then, the Fact models leave me unenthused. I find the cheaper Sonus Faber models not entirely to my taste, there are a few pairs of NOS Liutos around if you can find them but maybe you do not have the space. The smaller ATCs are horribly insensitive the affordable Kefs and B&Ws lack, well, pretty much everything so it becomes quite difficult.

The Audiosmile Kensai have a reputation in some quarters but are pretty insensitive, my own speakers are comparable sensitivity wise, both about 3dB down on your PMCs. I use my setup in pentode mode having convinced myself that I need the power, but i find that anything that required both power and presence to be a little lacking.

Being something of a cheapskate i would look hard at the Motion 15s, can I live with their lack of neutrality balanced against their engaging quality and excellent sensitivity, that would be my first call.

Thanks for your reply Dave . . . it sort of confirms the way my mind has been running over the weekend, limited choice because of my preferances. Makes me feel a bit, 'why bother'? I dont like the way modern hifi has gon, I'm not going to be forced down a route I dont like and am not comfortable with. Stick to what I know and might like, there is also limited choice because of dealerships, or lack of them in deepest Suffolk, carrot crunchers out here . . .

I'm going to play with my system a little more too, already opend the sweet spot a little with the valve rings, I can hear modern young hifi'ers laughing at that one . . . but the 'black art' of tweaking and tuning systems, particularly valve systems is live and well in the East Anglian out-back. I've done my own thing before, I'm about to do it again it seems, swim against the flow.*clapping*

Harbeth, PMC, Proac, Spendor, hear we come . . . ??????????????????????

CJSF

Absolutely, I find most modern hi-fi, particularly in the mid price category to be incredibly uninspiring and totally at odds with what I want from a music playing system.

The result is that I tend to swing from one extreme to another, one minute wanting to get my hands on some valves and some relatively high sensitivity speakers, the next wanting to go with the simplicity, power and punch of an active system.

This is not quite as wilde as it sounds, my taste in speakers runs to something a little more energetic than the designs you would probably favour, I do not listen to music to relax, I listen to it to be excited. That said I cannot stand speakers that are, in your own phrase, 'coloured' but I am prepared to trade a little neutrality for a bit of presence or punch. That I can get this result from both valve/hi-sensitivity or integrated active speakers is not contradictory if you judge by results, not by methodology.

I know someone who has the ADM9T, this is the slightly older model (3 yrs) and I thought it sounded excellent in almost all respects, it had the punch and presence of many of the studio actives I know and like but with perhaps a little more refinement and of course the stunning midrange clarity that made me think about them in the first place.

The above is not meant to prod you in any particular direction, in fact I think the conclusions in your last post are to the point, really just to share thoughts on how and why some specific choices are made.

One final thought, I had hands on a pair of 30.1s when they were released last year, great performance if you have the space, they can be positioned quite close to the listening position if that helps. Again, not cheap.

 

[chebby]

...I do not listen to music to relax, I listen to it to be excited.

An important statement. It suggests there are two 'camps' or two aspirations for what we'd want if building a system. ('Pipe & slippers' or 'headbangers' at it's most ludicrous.)

I would argue that a hi-fi should be able to do both well. To help you relax and also be able to excite you, depending on the music you choose to accompany/enhance your mood. (Or change your mood if that's whats required.)

It shouldn't be problematic having a system that can soothe you as you flollop into your chair, with a beer (or a Horlicks) after a hard day, that can also pick you up and energise and excite you when you need it to. It shouldn't be problematic for the same system to disappear whilst you submerge yourself in a radio drama or a comedy (as I know CJ likes to do) and not intrude on that 'suspension of reality' whether it's a fast paced thriller or something more relaxed.

I don't get the idea of 'chill out' systems and 'rock out' systems having to be different things.

 

[CnoEvil]

...I do not listen to music to relax, I listen to it to be excited.

An important statement. It suggests there are two 'camps' or two aspirations for what we'd want if building a system.

I would argue that a hi-fi should be able to do both. To help you relax and also be able to excite you, depending on the music you choose to accompany/enhance your mood. (Or change your mood if that's whats reqired.)

It shouldn't be problematic having a system that can soothe you as you flollop into your chair, with a beer (or a Horlicks), after a hard day that can also pick you up and energise and excite you when you need it to. It shouldn't be problematic for the same system to disappear whilst you submerge yourself in a radio drama or a comedy (as I know CJ likes to do) and not intrude on that 'suspension of reality' whether it's a fast paced thriller or something

I don't get the idea of 'chill out' systems and 'rock out' systems having to be different things.

I totally agree.

If the system is well put together, then it's the music that will relax or excite.

 

[CJSF]

Relaxed chill out or rock out systems? . . . how right you both are, the excitment or soothing tones should be in the recording . . . However, reading so many replies on this forum leads one to believe, systems should always be 'exciting', never mind the music that is playing???????????*yahoo*

This is one of the good point of the LB1 I dont want to loose, the transmission line set up realy alows them to be very powerfull or gental and relaxing depending on mood and time of day, even with the limited power of 20w in triode mode, they can, and do, realy get moving. This 'all things to all men' is a bit more dificult with an LS35a, however much power they are fed? All I want is a bit more width in the image . . . *pardon*

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Sorry Dave, ADM9T and 30.1s dont seem to be coming up any where. I have poor memory for sourse names etc, so they dont mean much to me, so I cant go deeper?

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

If it was me, I would try some of the suggestions you've been given (if you have an amenable dealer/s).....then you will change; or you will not. Either way, you will have an interesting time, and be wiser. *biggrin*

 

[chebby]

Sorry Dave, ADM9T and 30.1s dont seem to be coming up any where. I have poor memory for sourse names etc, so they dont mean much to me, so I cant go deeper?

CJSF

AVI's latest iteration of the ADM9 is on this product page ...

http://www.avihifi.co.uk/products.html

Harbeth's Monitor 30.1s (domestic version £2649 per pair) are here ...

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=monitor30.1domestic&model=Monitor%2030.1%20domestic

 

[matt49]

I think I've suggested this before, but hey ho, here's another shout for panel speakers. They offer something quite different from box speakers. Not universally appealing, but certainly worth a listen. Some people find that once they've heard panels, nothing else will do.

Are you within reach of Hifi Lounge near Biggleswade? They stock Magneplanar and Martin Logan. The latter may be over budget.

Matt