Impedance - biwiring/biamping/series/parallel

[SteveR750]

Agree cno. The issue is when the science quoted is clearly wrong when using that approach to make a point, not whether science should or should not be used as a means of comparison or analysis.

 

[CnoEvil]

?

Hifi is a technical discipline.  To understand it properly, you need to have an understanding of the underlying equipment and theory. 

That may be so, but listening to (and getting pleasure from) music isn't. IMO. Enjoying your hifi is more important than understanding it....though having some understanding greatly helps.

This forum is (mostly) split into those who make measurements and how stuff works, a priority and those who concentrate simply on how stuff sounds and whether they like it. The former helps to explain the latter, but isn't obligatory when choosing a system that sounds subjectively pleasing.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Some compare systems using YouTube videos!

 

[Covenanter]

Hifi is a technical discipline. To understand it properly, you need to have an understanding of the underlying equipment and theory.

That may be so, but listening to (and getting pleasure from) music isn't. IMO. Enjoying your hifi is more important than understanding it....though having some understanding greatly helps.

This forum is (mostly) split into those who make measurements and how stuff works, a priority and those who concentrate simply on how stuff sounds and whether they like it. The former helps to explain the latter, but isn't obligatory when choosing a system that sounds subjectively pleasing.

It certainly isn't "obligatory" but it surely doesn't hurt to know the science. As an example, if I listen to a SET amplifier I might well think it sounds great but I will know that it will have a lot of second-harmonic distortion, it will be there unless you put in lots of feedback circuits and then the purists won't like it so they don't put them in. Now second-harmonic distortion is actually quite pleasant, unlike the odd-harmonic stuff you get with poor Class B amplifiers, but it is distortion and do we really want that in a hifi set-up?

I actually think the real difference is between those who want "nice sound" and those who want "high fidelity" and these are by no means the same thing!

Chris

PS BTW I only use specifications to slim down a potential list of kit. I always buy on the basis of what it sounds like.

 

[lindsayt]

Covenanter, at what percentage level is 2nd harmonic distortion detectable to your ears?

Which SET amplifiers produce more than that level at sub-clipping power levels?

I put it to you that any decent SET amplifier used at appropriate power levels will be producing levels of harmonic distortion that are not detectable by your ears. And therefore for you or anyone else to criticise SET amps on the basis of something that no one can hear is akin to someone criticising the frequency response of speakers because they are 6 dbs down at 100khz.

If the distortion is inaudible then it doesn't matter if it is there or not in a hi-fi system.

I also put it to you, that based on your last post, you don't really know and fully understand the science behind harmonic distortion. Which is not really a criticism as very few people do. There are lots of technical aspects of hi-fi that I don't know or fully understand. In the absence of this knowledge I'm happy to carry on using my ears to decide what hi-fi components I want to use and keep.

 

[CnoEvil]

My advice, for what it's worth, is to park your technical knowledge at the door when listening to a system. Then concentrate on how the music sounds by asking subjective questions like:
- Is it believable?
- How authentic does it sound?
- Am I emotionally drawn into the music?
- Does it have immediacy, refinement, realism and authority.
- Is the intention of the musicians being communicated?

If the answer to these questions is "Yes", then that's all that matters.

Given your love and knowledge of Classical music, I know that you understand what I'm trying to get at.

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter, at what percentage level is 2nd harmonic distortion detectable to your ears?

Which SET amplifiers produce more than that level at sub-clipping power levels?

I put it to you that any decent SET amplifier used at appropriate power levels will be producing levels of harmonic distortion that are not detectable by your ears. And therefore for you or anyone else to criticise SET amps on the basis of something that no one can hear is akin to someone criticising the frequency response of speakers because they are 6 dbs down at 100khz.

If the distortion is inaudible then it doesn't matter if it is there or not in a hi-fi system.

I also put it to you, that based on your last post, you don't really know and fully understand the science behind harmonic distortion. Which is not really a criticism as very few people do. There are lots of technical aspects of hi-fi that I don't know or fully understand. In the absence of this knowledge I'm happy to carry on using my ears to decide what hi-fi components I want to use and keep.

Well, I seem to recall a project at Uni measuring levels and types of distortion in various types of amplifiers. Now that was 40+ years ago but I think the principles are unchanged and valve amplifier design hasn't changed so I think I have a passing knowledge.

Perhaps you could tell us what the difference is that you can hear between valve and ss amplifiers?

Chris

 

[Covenanter]

My advice, for what it's worth, is to park your technical knowledge at the door when listening to a system. Then concentrate on how the music sounds by asking subjective questions like: - Is it believable? - How authentic does it sound? - Am I emotionally drawn into the music? - Does it have immediacy, refinement, realism and authority. - Is the intention of the musicians being communicated?

If the answer to these questions is "Yes", then that's all that matters.

Given your love and knowledge of Classical music, I know that you understand what I'm trying to get at.

I listen to the fidelity to the original (or an original version that I have heard). If that is close the other things will follow.

Chris

 

[matt49]

Covenanter, at what percentage level is 2nd harmonic distortion detectable to your ears?

0.6%

 

[Vladimir]

Oops.

 

[CnoEvil]

I listen to the fidelity to the original (or an original version that I have heard).  If that is close the other things will follow.

Chris

Do you mean close to the recording, or close to the performance that was recorded?

If it's the former, you have no idea as to how it was intended to sound.

FWIW. I have heard a lot of expensive "neutral" equipment that sounded sterile and uninvolving.

I think that when push comes to shove, you choose a system the same way that I do ie. Play music that you know well, and if it sounds right to you, then you buy it.

I don't think R700s are strictly neutral, but they are engaging....but what is neutral, New Kef Refs, Old Kef Refs, Focal Utopias, PMCs, ATCs? They all sound different and they are all considered fairly neutral and accurate.

 

[lindsayt]

Covenanter, at what percentage level is 2nd harmonic distortion detectable to your ears?

0.6%

At what frequency?

 

[Covenanter]

I listen to the fidelity to the original (or an original version that I have heard). If that is close the other things will follow.

Chris

Do you mean close to the recording, or close to the performance that was recorded?

If it's the former, you have no idea as to how it was intended to sound.

FWIW. I have heard a lot of expensive "neutral" equipment that sounded sterile and uninvolving.

I think that when push comes to shove, you choose a system the same way that I do ie. Play music that you know well, and if it sounds right to you, then you buy it.

I don't think R700s are strictly neutral, but they are engaging....but what is neutral, New Kef Refs, Old Kef Refs, Focal Utopias, PMCs, ATCs? They all sound different and they are all considered fairly neutral and accurate.

I can't be there at every recording of course. But I will have heard at least one performance of most things I buy so I know roughly what it should sound like. I've also heard live a lot of the performers I buy recordings of so I know what they sound like. I go on that. That's an advantage of classical over "pop".

I don't think I used the word "neutral". I don't think any speaker is "neutral". In fact I think it's impossible to make a neutral speaker. I bought the R700s because they made recordings, particularly voice recordings, sound realistic.

Chris

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter, at what percentage level is 2nd harmonic distortion detectable to your ears?

0.6%

At what frequency?

3rd harmonic is easier to hear (because it grates). We did some tests in the research lab at Uni and many more people could hear issues with uncorrected Class B amps than with any other type of amp. (We were all building amps for fun and mine were all valve as I was s**t at ss circuit design.)

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

I can't be there at every recording of course.  But I will have heard at least one performance of most things I buy so I know roughly what it should sound like.  I've also heard live a lot of the performers I buy recordings of so I know what they sound like.  I go on that.  That's an advantage of classical over "pop".?

I don't think I used the word "neutral".  I don't think any speaker is "neutral".  In fact I think it's impossible to make a neutral speaker.  I bought the R700s because they made recordings, particularly voice recordings, sound realistic.

Chris

So we basically agree....which is good (realistic is a subjective judgement and a very valid one, in my book).

By using the word "neutral", I'm simply referring to equipment that is supposed to be as true to the recording as possible....it's the Holy Grail for some.

 

[Covenanter]

I can't be there at every recording of course. But I will have heard at least one performance of most things I buy so I know roughly what it should sound like. I've also heard live a lot of the performers I buy recordings of so I know what they sound like. I go on that. That's an advantage of classical over "pop".

I don't think I used the word "neutral". I don't think any speaker is "neutral". In fact I think it's impossible to make a neutral speaker. I bought the R700s because they made recordings, particularly voice recordings, sound realistic.

Chris

So we basically agree....which is good (realistic is a subjective judgement and a very valid one, in my book).

By using the word "neutral", I'm simply referring to equipment that is supposed to be as true to the recording as possible....it's the Holy Grail for some.

Yep, we generally do agree although we come from different directions.

Chris