I'm quite tempted

[podknocker]

If you selected the best possible quality components, that need go into a CD player and popped them into a beautifiul case, like the Exposure 2010 CD player, then after packaging and shipping and profit, I would expect to pay £500 for this device. Perhaps a little more if the drawer mechanism was solid and glided in and out nicely. A good display and silent operation, with a 5 year guarantee against skipping and transport issues etc.

When you get to £1000 you begin to wonder where the other £500 is going, considering, again, that all the contents inside this CD player, derive from technology that's been around for over 40 years.

The tray on my Audiolab Omnia is very poor quality and I'm scared of catching it and snapping the damn thing off. This is one thing to look out for, as the tray is essential for loading the CDs. I can't believe Audiolab tested the Omnia and didn't think the tray was shockingly poor quality and would be the first thing to break.

 

[plastic penguin]

I love CDs and I have done since 1985 but technology moves on and If the information on a CD (at 1411kbps) can be copied perfectly, bit for bit, using a streaming platform and app, then there should be no difference to the sound, if the file is presented to the same DAC as the one used within the CD player. Taking any possible mechanical failure out of the equation and also the cost of a large physical unit, which can be a fortune, must be the preferred option these days, surely? Streaming amps/DACs do sound as good as CDs now, so why bother with a physical format?

Just because technology moves it doesn't guarantee better quality.

When I heard the Marantz CD 6007 with my amp and those speakers I demoed it didn't have the all round game of my Exposure. Not night and day but certainly not enough to justify replacing my CDP. Don't get me wrong the Marantz was good for its price....

But unless you heard any of these Exposures you won't fully grasp what I'm saying.

 

[richwhite08]

Just because technology moves it doesn't guarantee better quality.

When I heard the Marantz CD 6007 with my amp and those speakers I demoed it didn't have the all round game of my Exposure. Not night and day but certainly not enough to justify replacing my CDP. Don't get me wrong the Marantz was good for its price....

But unless you heard any of these Exposures you won't fully grasp what I'm saying.

Isn’t that comparing two versions of a product rather than one technology to another?

 

[podknocker]

Just because technology moves it doesn't guarantee better quality.

When I heard the Marantz CD 6007 with my amp and those speakers I demoed it didn't have the all round game of my Exposure. Not night and day but certainly not enough to justify replacing my CDP. Don't get me wrong the Marantz was good for its price....

But unless you heard any of these Exposures you won't fully grasp what I'm saying.

I bet your Exposure CD player sounds fantastic and I would love one new, for £500 but If the Exposure's DAC was used in my streaming amp, the chances are, it would sound the same, when fed a CD quality file at 1411kbps.

 

[Stuart.W.D]

@podknocker


"When you get to £1000 you begin to wonder where the other £500 is going, considering, again, that all the contents inside this CD player, derive from technology that's been around for over 40 years."

[/QUOTE]

The technology holds it's own 40 years later from my own experience. I have a low-end Marantz CD player. The model number is CD6005 I paid £250 from Richer Sounds. My music streamer is the Cambridge CXN V2 and it's extremely good. The current price is £800 with Richer Sounds. Many owners had trouble improving the integrated dac inside the V2 at £1,000. Demonstration how capable a music streamer the Cambridge is for the money. Whenever I compare via Tidal against playing CDs, I prefer the sound quality of the CD player rather than the CXN V2. The Marantz offers a better soundstage. I'm a guitar player and I listen to acoustic music.

 

[podknocker]

I totally agree CD sounds superb and it has given me great quality sound, for decades, but it's just a vehicle for the data. There are other vehicles now and they offer the same, or better quality. CD does sound better than streaming, unless you are streaming a CD quality file, into a streaming device which uses the same, or better DAC that's inside a CD player.

Streaming DACs can be the same, or better quality, than those found in CD players. It's the software (low res streaming files) giving poor quality sound. The hardware is the same. When the digital info arrives at a streamer's DAC, it is received the same as the digital info, from a CD.

If you have a CD player with a USB socket and you present this CD player with a CD quality, lossless FLAC file, it will sound the same. I've done this on older players, including a Sony 4k Blu Ray player. CD, USB, or streaming. It doesn't make a difference, if the data is the same quality. Your DAC can't tell the difference.

If all the zeros and ones arrive at 1411kbps, then your DAC will see this data in the same way.

 

[plastic penguin]

Isn’t that comparing two versions of a product rather than one technology to another?

No. As some were saying you can get new players for a similar price than the Exposure advertised, I was just making a valid point and sharing my thoughts on the CD6007, as it's the most recent new product I've heard.

 

[richwhite08]

No. As some were saying you can get new players for a similar price than the Exposure advertised, I was just making a valid point and sharing my thoughts on the CD6007, as it's the most recent new product I've heard.

Right I get that, but the "technology moves on" comment was in regards to streaming - and the technology now being present for streaming to be as good a quality as listening to a CD. Whereas in comparison, comparing one CD player to another is to compare the quality of competing products. Or comparing Spotify's relatively low quality output with Apple Hi-Res Lossless, for example.

 

[plastic penguin]

I bet your Exposure CD player sounds fantastic and I would love one new, for £500 but If the Exposure's DAC was used in my streaming amp, the chances are, it would sound the same, when fed a CD quality file at 1411kbps.

That's why I've always said that budget outboard Dacs don't better a Dac in a well sorted CD player. And demoed quite a few separate Dacs: Arcam rDac, Peachtree, Rega, original DacMagic... none of those improved on my old Arcam CD73 when connected to digital outs of the CDP.

 

[plastic penguin]

Right I get that, but the "technology moves on" comment was in regards to streaming - and the technology now being present for streaming to be as good a quality as listening to a CD. Whereas in comparison, comparing one CD player to another is to compare the quality of competing products. Or comparing Spotify's relatively low quality output with Apple Hi-Res Lossless, for example.

As I have no interest in streaming - many on here have tried and failed to convert me to digital - your particular comment is irrelevant.

 

[richwhite08]

As I have no interest in streaming - many on here have tried and failed to convert me to digital - your particular comment is irrelevant.

I'm not trying to convince you to start streaming - I want people to enjoy music however they best prefer.

I was just trying to clarify that the earlier point being made was specifically in reference to the sound quality between CD and streaming, and it not being the same as comparing one CD player to another:

I love CDs and I have done since 1985 but technology moves on and If the information on a CD (at 1411kbps) can be copied perfectly, bit for bit, using a streaming platform and app, then there should be no difference to the sound, if the file is presented to the same DAC as the one used within the CD player.

 

[podknocker]

I see streaming and FLAC on USB and CD as different types of wrapping paper. When you open the paper, you find the same thing. It's not as if the contents change, because of what you wrap it in. If that makes sense.

 

[richwhite08]

I see streaming and FLAC on USB and CD as different types of wrapping paper. When you open the paper, you find the same thing. It's not as if the contents change, because of what you wrap it in. If that makes sense.

Reminds me of a fitness video I saw a while back - the guy was talking about when gyms were closed during covid and just finding other ways to workout, and he said "your muscles don't know whether they're lifting a barbell or a bucket, they just know they're under tension."

Data is data.

 

[Noddy]

I see streaming and FLAC on USB and CD as different types of wrapping paper. When you open the paper, you find the same thing. It's not as if the contents change, because of what you wrap it in. If that makes sense.

It does. Different transport mechanism, same data.

It‘s akin to ordering a tin of Heinz beans from Ocado or buying it from the corner shop. Same product. Yeah, okay so the data from a streaming service might be fresher, with a later sell by date, but you won’t hear the difference. Honest. As an aside, anyone else watched videos by Paul Ripley, and sighed at his long winded pointless analogies? Like mine.

 

[richwhite08]

It does. Different transport mechanism, same data.

It‘s akin to ordering a tin of Heinz beans from Ocado or buying it from the corner shop. Same product. Yeah, okay so the data from a streaming service might be fresher, with a later sell by date, but you won’t hear the difference. Honest. As an aside, anyone else watched videos by Paul Ripley, and sighed at his long winded pointless analogies? Like mine.

The great thing about it is it's really, really easy to test.

Put a CD player and streamer in the same room with the same speakers, put a blindfold on, and have someone else switch the source. Run through half a dozen to a dozen songs and in 30 minutes you'll discover how well you can really tell the difference.

 

[podknocker]

It doesn't make a difference where your CD quality data comes from. A CD, or a FLAC file on a USB drive, or from streaming. If you have 70 minutes of music at 1411kbps, the zeros and ones carry the same information. A DAC doesn't see this data in a different way. The format being used is irrelevant.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm not trying to convince you to start streaming - I want people to enjoy music however they best prefer.

I was just trying to clarify that the earlier point being made was specifically in reference to the sound quality between CD and streaming, and it not being the same as comparing one CD player to another:

Err, not always. Old forum member Gerrardasnails, invited me around his house to listen to his DacMagic connected to streaming device, can't remember which one as it was years ago, and although the clarity was a little better than my Arcam CD73, it also had a clinical presentation, almost cold sounding.

Anyway, I already stream via our TV. My daughter uploaded Spotify for me. How does it compare? No idea until I buy a Dac to connect it to the amp.

But as I already listen to Freeview radio via the TV/Sky box, it sounds fine, nothing more or less, just fine. Nothing to complain about nothing to 'wow' about either.

 

[richwhite08]

Err, not always. Old forum member Gerrardasnails, invited me around his house to listen to his DacMagic connected to streaming device, can't remember which one as it was years ago, and although the clarity was a little better than my Arcam CD73, it also had a clinical presentation, almost cold sounding.

Anyway, I already stream via our TV. My daughter uploaded Spotify for me. How does it compare? No idea until I buy a Dac to connect it to the amp.

But as I already listen to Freeview radio via the TV/Sky box, it sounds fine, nothing more or less, just fine. Nothing to complain about nothing to 'wow' about either.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here - again, I was just trying to offer some clarity into what was originally said.

As to this comment, who said "always"? I'm sure everyone would agree that the quality of both input and output is crucial. You've just said it was years ago (tech improves rapidly) and don't remember what the device was - so how can you conclude it was supposed to deliver CD quality? That's like me listening to a CD on those old CD-Walkmans and concluding CDs aren't very good.

I don't know what your TV/Sky box is connected to, so no comment there. But all of this is moot - each of us is aware that plugging the same CD player into different speakers, or being in a different room, will impact the sound, so unless and until you plug a quality streaming device into the same speakers in your usual listening spot, you can't definitively say either one is better or worse.

 

[podknocker]

We've had CD for over 40 years now and there's a vinyl revival, which I don't understand. We now have proper hi res streaming technology and there are people now getting nostalgic and sentimental over CD!

I don't like using the word Luddite, but people are simply holding onto their familiar formats and I don't know why the modern technology scares so many people. Most of us on here, ranting, are fairly educated and understand progress.

Are people going to try and bring back 8 track, because they found a few in their attic? Things move on and society adopts these changes and I fully embrace streaming, as it sounds as good as anything before it and it's very convenient. The resistance to change baffles me.

The HIFI sector has become an elitist echo chamber of snobbery and delusion. There are people out there spending a fortune on kit and good luck to them, but there are many products available for the masses and these offer astonishing sound quality.

 

[Noddy]

Err, not always. Old forum member Gerrardasnails, invited me around his house to listen to his DacMagic connected to streaming device, can't remember which one as it was years ago, and although the clarity was a little better than my Arcam CD73, it also had a clinical presentation, almost cold sounding.

Anyway, I already stream via our TV. My daughter uploaded Spotify for me. How does it compare? No idea until I buy a Dac to connect it to the amp.

But as I already listen to Freeview radio via the TV/Sky box, it sounds fine, nothing more or less, just fine. Nothing to complain about nothing to 'wow' about either.

Did you plug in your Arcam CD73? If not, then the comparison is pointless.

I really don’t understand why someone would pay a fortune for a mere DAC, they have reached the point where any differences are inaudible. Even the moderately expensive Chord Mojo is outperformed by significantly cheaper units built round a bog standard DAC chip. In fact the £10 Apple DAC dongle is measureably extremely good.

Regarding the supposedly low quality Spotify, I cannot tell the difference between Spotify and the same music stored as CD quality and streamed from my iPhone to my amp.

 

[plastic penguin]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here - again, I was just trying to offer some clarity into what was originally said.

As to this comment, who said "always"? I'm sure everyone would agree that the quality of both input and output is crucial. You've just said it was years ago (tech improves rapidly) and don't remember what the device was - so how can you conclude it was supposed to deliver CD quality? That's like me listening to a CD on those old CD-Walkmans and concluding CDs aren't very good.

I don't know what your TV/Sky box is connected to, so no comment there. But all of this is moot - each of us is aware that plugging the same CD player into different speakers, or being in a different room, will impact the sound, so unless and until you plug a quality streaming device into the same speakers in your usual listening spot, you can't definitively say either one is better or worse.

You don't understand what I'm saying, I don't know the point you're trying to make.

Have I plugged the Arcam CDP into any device, then yes. I used the digital outs (coax cable) to connect to whatever Dac I had on demo: Rega, Arcam rDac, Peachtree etc etc and used the CDP as transport only.

The TV is connected to the Sky box by HDMI and use the 'Audio Out' on the Sky box with RCAs straight to the amp.

This means I can use or play digital music without the need for a Dac. This was set-up long before our new TV with a load of streaming options.

 

[Noddy]

The HIFI sector has become an elitist echo chamber of snobbery and delusion. There are people out there spending a fortune on kit and good luck to them, but there are many products available for the masses and these offer astonishing sound quality.

Exactly. Manufacturers, magazines, reviewers and social media influencers are all too often colluding together to hype demand and make themselves a good living.

We can get amazing audi quality with relative modest kit. We have high quality neutral amps for £400+, class D amps are coming down in price thanks to all in one chips, we have superb budget streamers, only speakers require a non trivial financial outlay. And we don’t need to splash out on the Rolls Royce speaker brands either (PMC et al).

There are measurements which show the clown show for what it is. A mains lead for £20,000? Chord DACS do not measure well for the price, and yet the audio industry and hangers on rave at how good they are. A DAC with knobs carved from unicorn horn anyone?

 

[podknocker]

That better be gold plated Unicorn horn, thank you very much.

 

[plastic penguin]

We've had CD for over 40 years now and there's a vinyl revival, which I don't understand. We now have proper hi res streaming technology and there are people now getting nostalgic and sentimental over CD!

I don't like using the word Luddite, but people are simply holding onto their familiar formats and I don't know why the modern technology scares so many people. Most of us on here, ranting, are fairly educated and understand progress.

Are people going to try and bring back 8 track, because they found a few in their attic? Things move on and society adopts these changes and I fully embrace streaming, as it sounds as good as anything before it and it's very convenient. The resistance to change baffles me.

The HIFI sector has become an elitist echo chamber of snobbery and delusion. There are people out there spending a fortune on kit and good luck to them, but there are many products available for the masses and these offer astonishing sound quality.

Hope you don't class me as "elitist". I don't even class myself as a 'Audiophile'. I like to keep it simple, simpler the better.

For some reason my little thread about a used Exposure CDP has gone way off-topic. I fully respect those who want to grasp the latest technology, I like to think others respect my choices, even though I partially have thanks to the new TV.

Other than my lovely Dalis I struggling to remember the last time I purchased a new product at the full retail price. Hang on I do: Arcam CD73 in 2005.

Therefore none of my components have cost thousands, and the money I have spent has been building blocks to my current bundles. Or in simple terms I've never gone out and splashed fortunes in one go.

 

[richwhite08]

You don't understand what I'm saying, I don't know the point you're trying to make.

I've said at least twice that I was merely clarifying that the comment about technology moving on was streaming vs CD, and not to compare one CD player with another.

If you truly can't understand that, I'm not sure how else to say it.