I like my system but rock music sounds less than ideal, any thoughts?

[chebby]

Villain2100:dear oh dear everyone wants to be a comedian

Do you have a reliable source for that statistic?

 

[Anonymous]

Meanwhile, back in "on topic" land...

As I've improved my equipment over the past couple of years, I've found my CD collection increasingly polarised - good sounding recordings sound even better, poor ones become really quite unpleasant. I put this down to the mastering, as it's always the same cuprits - thickly textured rock (whatever "rock" is...), debut indie albums... Nastly mastered recordings which have been hopelessly compressed.

I came across this the other day - apologies if it's been posted (many times) before, but I hadn't seen it, so maybe someone else will find it interesting too. "The Loudness War" on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Frateyourmusic.com%2Fboard_message_confirm%3Fmessage_id%3D1069425

 

[chebby]

Isn't rock supposed to be played at the max? Isn't it supposed to be rough and meant to jar the senses?

It was invented to pee off teenager's parents/neighbours/teachers and people into 'serious' music and designed specifically to play LOUD and to be anti-social.

Wanting superbly crafted and mastered rock that will sound delightful on an expensive hifi is sort of losing the plot a bit? Maybe?

What next, audophile Punk? Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs Gold SACD remasters of 'Slayer' for the 40 something IT manager to play on his Arcam system?

Some music just has to played on a pair of 12" be-woofered Jamos recovered from a skip, covered in sick/booze stains and *** burns and driven to insane levels of distortion by an amp stolen from someone's dad's place at a party when the parents were out. (Preferably with an MP3 phone and illegal downloads as a source to keep it 'real'.)

Actually forget all that. I have just described my last Naim demo experiences

 

[Alec]

chainrock:I think we should distinguish various types of rock as well - Things like U2, Soundgarden, Aerosmith, Radiohead sounds great on my system - but poor recordings (punk rock - like Offspring) sound awful at moderate volumes. These records sounded awful on my old JVC system, too. Problem is, with Offspring for example, you get ton on MF sound but not much treble and not much bass, relatively speaking. Turning volume up you get tired of the mids (the guy screaming). I used to use Winamp's equaliser for some rock music to tone down MF range and bump up the treble and the bass and it made it very listenable.

I agree. Some rock - the harder edged stuff - just doeant excite me as much as i feel it should and sounds a bit too smooth.

I have trouble accepting that this is because of poor production, as...well...i think i know from certain albums what that sound like, (to me, a less extreme version of playing a poor rip via youtube then the properly ripped copy in your own media player - tinny, less meaty, everything less well defined,), and that, to me, isnt the same as hearing something which is "all there", and perfecly full sounding, just not...exciting.

EDIT - do'nt people produce rock music on decent speakers? they must think it sound ok...?

Does anyone who thinks hifi can do heavy rock want to make some suggestions...?

 

[idc]

Production standards will continue to drop as more music is 'home made' and mixed on PCs and released via Utube and the likes. Possibly one of the reasons why so many young people are happy with illegal downloads at the lowest possible bit rate. We need to ween them onto decent quality production standards.

P.S. Villain2100, I am a comedian, just like my good mate Les.............

 

[the record spot]

Good equipment is good equipment IMO - my own CD player is lean, not flabby at all; it'll show up a rubbish recording in one go, but sing the praises of a good one in an instant. It'll do hard rock (Metallica, Motorhead, AC/DC) as easily as it'll do jazz and classical or vocal work.

Seek out the works of guys like Steve Hoffman, Joe Gastwirt, Bernie Grundman and the like; those guys have done a LOT of albums by artists you probably know and love. I know I bang on about this, but Joe's work is as near in some cases to hi-res on redbook as I've ever heard.

IMO - the GIGO principle is ever more relevant now.

 

[chebby]

idc:We need to ween them onto decent quality production standards.

And remove the whole point of being young (& rebellious etc) and sticking their fingers up at the big corporations/parents and adult hifi.

May as well suggest taking one's pierced/dyed/tattooed sneering youngster to Savile Row and get them fitted out with a couple of decent suits while you're at it

The kick from illegal downloading and getting music from sources your parents are barely aware of (except from newspaper articles) is the whole point I should imagine. Earphones and MP3 phones are not only convenient and part of the lifestyle but prevent kids from having to hear the rubbish their parents talk and the rubbish music/TV their parents watch or listen too. The continuous use of earphones also means parents have to shout louder to get a kid's attention (ideal) and raise adult fears of kids deafening themselves. (Even better!)

Was anyone here ever young? Music was supposed to be all about being loud, offensive, sexy, rebellious, dangerous, destructive, nihilistic, different, misunderstood, noticed, and about kicking stuff around and feeling sorry for yourself and feeling you had some power as a young person in an 'old' world. (Even if it was just the power to p@@@ them off!)

The very idea that some sage, wise adult would lead you by the hand and .."ween" you "onto decent quality production standards" would in modern language be very "Gay" (or 'lame' so I was informed a few weeks ago by Clare.)

 

[Alec]

chebby:

idc:We need to ween them onto decent quality production standards.

And remove the whole point of being young (& rebellious etc) and sticking their fingers up at the big corporations/parents and adult hifi.

May as well suggest taking one's pierced/dyed/tattooed sneering youngster to Savile Row and get them fitted out with a couple of decent suits while you're at it

The kick from illegal downloading and getting music from sources your parents are barely aware of (except from newspaper articles) is the whole point I should imagine. Earphones and MP3 phones are not only convenient and part of the lifestyle but prevent kids from having to hear the rubbish their parents talk and the rubbish music/TV their parents watch or listen too. The continuous use of earphones also means parents have to shout louder to get a kid's attention (ideal) and raise adult fears of kids deafening themselves. (Even better!)

Was anyone here ever young? Music was supposed to be all about being loud, offensive, sexy, rebellious, dangerous, destructive, nihilistic, different, misunderstood, noticed, and about kicking stuff around and feeling sorry for yourself and feeling you had some power as a young person in an 'old' world. (Even if it was just the power to p@@@ them off!)

The very idea that some sage, wise adult would lead you by the hand and .."ween" you "onto decent quality production standards" would in modern language be very "Gay" (or 'lame' so I was informed a few weeks ago by Clare.)

And you make a good point, but you seem to be also saying that adults shoudl like "hifi" music and should'nt complain when their hifi can't deliver with anything outside the stereotypical "smooooth" stuff.

Where's Big Chris? He must think Hi Fi can mix with rock...

 

[chebby]

Just saying it is a bit futile that we try and get kids to demand higher production standards.

Also making the point (earlier) that rock music was intended to be rough, cheap, mass manufactured, consumed by kids and incompatible with the whole notion of high-fidelity.

That only happened when the rock generation grew up and bought homes/cars, got careers and nice hi-fi's. (Most of them never died before they got old - despite Pete Townshend's exhortations - but ended up listening to Demis Roussos on a music-centre next to the Hostess Trolley.) Before that, the kids played disposable 7" singles - loud - on portable auto-changers in their bedrooms whilst their parents shouted and tried to listen to "Two way family favourites" on the radiogram downstairs.

Now the 'kids' are the parents (and grandparents) it is amusing to see them wanting to reproduce the 'trash' pop and rock music of their youth on audiophile equipment, stripped of all it's meaning and digitally re-mastered beyond all reason and tut-tutting about the awful quality of the stuff modern kids listen to.

 

[Alec]

Yeah fair enough, but many carried on liking that music, but started liking other music too.

Contect? Well, does that mean someone into classical shouldnt have low end, even "non hifi" kit?

I'm going to beg to differ and leave it there.

 

[JoelSim]

I dunno. If you played them Blue Monday by New Order on a hifi to kids they'd soon be disciples.

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
I dunno. If you played them Blue Monday by New Order on a hifi to kids they'd soon be disciples.

ÿ

I think the Orgy cover would appeal more.

It was quite a suprise to see this thread up here though, I don't know who resurrected it and why but I find it charming that is has led to such a debate.

About my current situation; changing my speakers from B&W 601S3 (which I had at the time I made the thread) to my current Focal Chorus 714V has been a great improvement. Rock sounds enjoyable now, it could use some more body but it still sounds ever so much better than with the B&W's.

 

[mike aitch]

i personally think that the problem is with all your so called hi-fi! why is it that the only genre any of you have a problem with is rock? obviously too well made for your feeble electronics to re-produce.

(stands back even further)!

 

[survivor]

I started to type a post and then thought I`d be here all night and quit it. Changed my mind after Jan`s last post but I shall try to keep it as brief as possible.

Very happy memories of playing rock music in my younger years on fairly cheap hi-fi, sounded great as I remember it. There`s a producer who`s name I can`t recall off the top of my head, sadly no longer with us but he produced a handful of Motorhead albums and in an interview in Record Collector said that music such as Motorheads sounded best when it was produced fairly roughly and played on vinyl rather than cd`s. Agree with that!

Rock music does have the advantage of so many sub genres.

When you look at the increase in sales/listeners of so many types of music in recent years it makes me feel that peoples tastes are becoming more diverse. Easy listening, Jazz, Swing, Classical, Folk you name it they all appear to be doing well. Loads of re-issues, new artists and older artists getting back together because of the increased interest seems to bode well. Everywhere I go I see people with earphones on which is great. As much as I love vinyl and turntables it would seem that the digital age is helping to get people to listen to music.

The 50 quid man helped to keep the music business afloat back in the 90`s. Sales were low, single sales had dropped significantly and the Americans were turning their backs on British based music. Can`t blame them for that during those dark days of low quality output from the UK. If I remember correctly re-issued rock albums made up 40 or possibly 45 per cent of album sales in the UK at some point during the 90`s. The singles chart at this time consisted of a great number of artists making dance music who were`nt selling albums. These artists were put onto dance compilations rather than having hit albums in their own right. This was a time when the record companies were not investing in long term artists. I can remember a week when there were nine dance orientated singles in the top ten yet only one dance orientated album in the top ten albums chart.(Possibly Snap or Black Box? Can`t remember for certain) Says a lot. There was also a week when the top ten singles consisted of five cover versions! Fifty per cent! Pretty sure one of those was Nick Berry`s version of `Heartbeat`. As I say, it was during these times when rock music helped keep the industry afloat. Whilst saying that of course, the word `Rock` does encompass a lot!

Not sure how they work out radio listening figures but I take these with a pinch of salt. There was a lot of talk of the radio wars back in the 90`s and I specifically remember that the overall radio audience had dropped and yet when Capital, Radio 1, Oasis, Radio 2, Heart etc released their respective listening figures they had all gone up and were all shouting about how well they were doing. Mmmnnn....someone was telling porky`s. I also remember the bitter and twisted Tony Blackburn laying into Radio 1 at every opportunity claiming that the stations DJ`s were too old. Ageist!! He was comparing them to Capitals and one of the DJ`s he mentioned was Simon Bates who is actually younger than Chris Tarrant but there you go! He may not have been the youngest DJ on radio but I recall him playing Pearl Jam which is something the Capital DJ`s never did. So who`s the trendiest?

I`ve lost touch with radio nowadays though I imagine with all the new digital stations there has probably never been a better time to get into it!

Lastly I`d like to say that considering it`s lack of support by the media through the years, heavy rock music seems more popular than ever with healthy album/t-shirt/and in particular concert ticket sales. As Bryan Adams once said `Everywhere I Go, The Kids Wanna Rock`!

All the best everyone.

 

[idc]

chebby:

idc:We need to ween them onto decent quality production standards.

And remove the whole point of being young (& rebellious etc) and sticking their fingers up at the big corporations/parents and adult hifi.

May as well suggest taking one's pierced/dyed/tattooed sneering youngster to Savile Row and get them fitted out with a couple of decent suits while you're at it

The kick from illegal downloading and getting music from sources your parents are barely aware of (except from newspaper articles) is the whole point I should imagine. Earphones and MP3 phones are not only convenient and part of the lifestyle but prevent kids from having to hear the rubbish their parents talk and the rubbish music/TV their parents watch or listen too. The continuous use of earphones also means parents have to shout louder to get a kid's attention (ideal) and raise adult fears of kids deafening themselves. (Even better!)

Was anyone here ever young? Music was supposed to be all about being loud, offensive, sexy, rebellious, dangerous, destructive, nihilistic, different, misunderstood, noticed, and about kicking stuff around and feeling sorry for yourself and feeling you had some power as a young person in an 'old' world. (Even if it was just the power to p@@@ them off!)

The very idea that some sage, wise adult would lead you by the hand and .."ween" you "onto decent quality production standards" would in modern language be very "Gay" (or 'lame' so I was informed a few weeks ago by Clare.)

Chebby, I like the idea of the young'uns being kitted out at Saville Row, they would probabaly love it! I do not see how illegal downloads are rebelling, more like participating in ripping off the music industry and getting a rubbish product. But with Apple's own earphones (which I believe are being updated) into a nano, you probably do not notice the difference.

Not all music is about rebellion, sexy or dangerous and there are plenty of youth are not into anything particularly destructive. In any case, music has to be the safest way to rebel against the oldies and the system. I would rather my son ends up a moody goth locked in his room for hours listening to some god auful racket than roaming the streets looking for his next hit armed with a knife.

Instead I intend to ween him onto legal good quality music, he is the only youth I will be able to influence that way, but it is a start.