I have a question for all of you out there

[chebby]

Rdburman is vinyl vs CD like a Model T Ford compared to a Lamborghini Gallardo?

Or is it like a Linhof Technika compared to a Canon EOS 5D?

which 5d?

It wouldn't matter which.

 

[matt49]

It is exactly the opposite, ears perceive LESS details from digital recordings compared to ANALOG vinyl pretty much everywhere. This is the reason becouse to a musical ear ANALOG so vinyl sound totally superior. Then, yes, you need to know how a guitar sound for real and how a drums bang for real. And I'm not sure many listeners knows about it, if they can play an instrument, if they even been at a live concert.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't seen it before, but now I realize that the reason why I prefer the sound of digital to analog is that I don't know what musical instruments sound like.

I also suspect that my thinking on this subject has been terribly muddled because I've failed to use enough CAPITAL LETTERS WHEN POSTING.

Matt

 

[Neptune_Twilight]

As I remember with the Xerxes I had a device that was fastened to the wall at the back & then had two lengths of thick black string that went from the front then were attached to the wall above at two points. I am certainly not saying that a decent turntable does not sound amazing they do, I suppose my point is that digital I use now sounds to me great & as i've ripped 800+ albums & adding to that as I have time I've finally committed to digital & after extended listening to analogue (my bro-in-law in a Naim - Linn follower & thinks I am a Philistine) I don't see the need to move back or even add analogue.

I think it's likely we all don't hear or end up in our heads with identical results with various bits of hi-fi or music - I worked a while back in a very noisy environment & have some hearing loss so that probably makes some difference - As I've mentioned before I will probably at some point try a TT again as I can never leave well alone there is a good dealer neraby - I’m actually supposed to be cleaning the house today & music is playing in the lounge & a couple of times I’ve stopped what I’m doing & gone into that room for a listen as it sounds so good from the hall or in here, if any hi-fi does that to me (not all do) something must be very right I feel?

Edit: Grrrrrr - This was supposed to have a quote in it as it's s a reply but it failed for some reason?

 

[BigH]

It is exactly the opposite, ears perceive LESS details from digital recordings compared to ANALOG vinyl pretty much everywhere. This is the reason becouse to a musical ear ANALOG so vinyl sound totally superior. Then, yes, you need to know how a guitar sound for real and how a drums bang for real. And I'm not sure many listeners knows about it, if they can play an instrument, if they even been at a live concert.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't seen it before, but now I realize that the reason why I prefer the sound of digital to analog is that I don't know what musical instruments sound like.

I also suspect that my thinking on this subject has been terribly muddled because I've failed to use enough CAPITAL LETTERS WHEN POSTING.

Matt

max is an expert you have been told, lol

 

[cheeseboy]

It is exactly the opposite, ears perceive LESS details from digital recordings compared to ANALOG vinyl pretty much everywhere. This is the reason becouse to a musical ear ANALOG so vinyl sound totally superior. Then, yes, you need to know how a guitar sound for real and how a drums bang for real. And I'm not sure many listeners knows about it, if they can play an instrument, if they even been at a live concert.

*stop* *crazy*

sorry max, that's just a crock of ballsacks. Just because you're using capitals doesn't make it true.

 

[davedotco]

It is exactly the opposite, ears perceive LESS details from digital recordings compared to ANALOG vinyl pretty much everywhere. This is the reason becouse to a musical ear ANALOG so vinyl sound totally superior. Then, yes, you need to know how a guitar sound for real and how a drums bang for real. And I'm not sure many listeners knows about it, if they can play an instrument, if they even been at a live concert.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't seen it before, but now I realize that the reason why I prefer the sound of digital to analog is that I don't know what musical instruments sound like.

I also suspect that my thinking on this subject has been terribly muddled because I've failed to use enough CAPITAL LETTERS WHEN POSTING.

Matt

By his own admission, MaxD lives quite close to the Vatican, clearly some of that Papal infalibility has rubbed off on him *mosking*

Talking of live music, managed to persuade Mrs DDC to indulge in a little promenading this yers, all things being well we shall be starting off with some english music next friday. Rather fancy the Bach the following day but the saturday will be very busy, god knows what time we will have to get there to get in.

 

[matt49]

The Xerxes I would rate as good if you can get it for a couple of hundred quid. I went to a turntable bake-off where I thought my EMT 930 with Denon DL103 was a couple of notches above the Xerxes with AT OC9 cartridge. It's likely that a top end cartidge would have lifted that Xerxes up by a couple of notches. My EMT 930 with DL103 is a couple of notches below my EMT 930 with EMT TSD 15 cartridge. And I slightly prefer my EMT 950 to my EMT 930 with the same EMT cartridge fitted to both. There are plenty of other vinyl sources that I would rate on a par with my EMT 950. Modded Lenco with top arm and cartridge being one of them. Plus stuff like the Pioneer Exclusives.

The point being, you could really go to town and get a vinyl source that would sound significantly better than your Xerxes. Whether there would be enough improvement for you to prefer the sound of vinyl to CD's would remain to be seen...

I don’t think this line of argument is very effective, or should I say I don't think it's likely to persuade anyone that analog is right for them. I’m not suggesting you don’t believe in the truth of what you’re saying, just that as a strategy it seems flawed.

Your baseline position is “vinyl sounds better to me in my system”. When people say their experience has been different, you invite people to tell you what TTs they’ve used. You then trump them with your EMTs and other vintage TTs.

Now first up, this looks like one-upmanship, both on the level of the kit you own (am I right in thinking these EMTs would have cost into 5 figures when new?) and on the level of the experience you claim. That simply doesn’t look good. It may be that modesty is an overrated virtue and is generally absent on forums, but its opposite still doesn’t come across well.

Second, the argument looks a bit like “trap setting”. Wouldn’t it be more candid simply to say: “if you haven’t heard one of the top vintage decks (EMT, Pioneer Exclusive, Lenco etc), you don’t really have any idea how good vinyl can sound”. Because that’s what the argument really amounts to.

Third, if the argument really is that in order to beat a good digital set up you need to have an EMT or similar, then you have in effect damned most analog systems — and, as I understand it, all new TTs within reach of us here — to incompetence. And that really doesn’t reflect very well on analog audio as a whole, does it? Nor is it likely to fill people with a desire to investigate it.

Perhaps it would be more helpful to identify some TTs that meet your standards and are available for purchase new for (let's say) a four figure sum. Are there any?

BTW I'm not being gratuitously captious here: I have in fact been looking into buying a new TT and have tried several models recently.

Matt

 

[VOE]

Have you tried Pro-ject's "Xtension 10"? I've heard one with the 10" Evolution tone-arm and Ortofon Cadenza Black (a "standard" dealer package available) and it sounded incredible. At £3350 new I didn't think it was unreasonable at all. Mind you, I don't know how I'd get on with the "floating" heavy mass chassis.

 

[cheeseboy]

At £3350 new I didn't think it was unreasonable at all.

no offence meant VOE, but I suspect your idea of unreasonable varies quite significantly to lot of people on here.

 

[Neptune_Twilight]

I fully accept I haven't heard the best there is in turntable design, there is also amplification & speakers far, far better tha. those I own, however there has for most of us a limit on what is reasonable to spend when I for one have other interests & responsibilities - Frankly if I paid £3,400 for a turntable my wife would expect not only music but the person to appear before me & dance too !

Others may be happy (or able) to spend that much & I'm happy for them & maybe a little jealous but I think you can get a pretty good sound with mid priced gear & I've heard a system recently that cost around 18 grand (when new) that unimpressed me - One thing I do is listen to a fair bit of live music & concerts & what I hear in my lounge compared to to the real thing is pretty good, in fact I think it sounds very good.

BTW I don't own a turntable at the moment Xerxes or BSR.

 

[lindsayt]

Matt49 yes that is the point I was making. If you prefer CD over vinyl on the basis of what you've heard in your system and you haven't extensively heard a turntable of the calibre of a Pioneer Exclusive then no you don't know how good vinyl can sound. That seems logical to me. It's not about boasting. Just stating a logical argument.

Even then, even with an uber deck, if it's on a floor mounted stand next to the speakers, if the record's punched off centre, if the stylus has picked up dirt or fluff, if the stylus is worn, if the phono amplification isn't so good, if the cartridge isn't mounted with the correct geometry, if the arm bearings are worn or need adjustment, if it's a compilation album, if the record's excessivley scratched etc etc etc then it's still likely, if not certain, that CD will sound better.

If you're on a three figure budget there are turntables like the Pioneer PL71 or Kenwood KD990 or Sony PSX 6750 with a decent 2nd hand cartridge such as an Ortofon SPU that get pretty close to an EMT 950 for sound quality. I would take one of these Japanese direct drives over a Roksan Xerxes.

There are no new turntables that I can recommend for anyone to buy. There's no value in it.

 

[matt49]

Matt49 yes that is the point I was making. If you prefer CD over vinyl on the basis of what you've heard in your system and you haven't extensively heard a turntable of the calibre of a Pioneer Exclusive then no you don't know how good vinyl can sound. That seems logical to me. It's not about boasting. Just stating a logical argument.

Even then, even with an uber deck, if it's on a floor mounted stand next to the speakers, if the record's punched off centre, if the stylus has picked up dirt or fluff, if the stylus is worn, if the phono amplification isn't so good, if the cartridge isn't mounted with the correct geometry, if the arm bearings are worn or need adjustment, if it's a compilation album, if the record's excessivley scratched etc etc etc then it's still likely, if not certain, that CD will sound better.

Thanks, that's clear enough.

If you're on a three figure budget there are turntables like the Pioneer PL71 or Kenwood KD990 or Sony PSX 6750 with a decent 2nd hand cartridge such as an Ortofon SPU that get pretty close to an EMT 950 for sound quality. I would take one of these Japanese direct drives over a Roksan Xerxes.

Well, one thing that's come of this is that you've half persuaded me that I should consider buying used.

There are no new turntables that I can recommend for anyone to buy. There's no value in it.

Just for clarification: is this because of the depreciation of new goods, or because new models don't compare well in SQ terms with vintage ones, or for some other reason?

Matt

 

[BigH]

According to some vinyl forum UK were generally much better quality than the USA vinyl but Japan vinyl are the ones to get.

Probably those forums are based in UK becouse I TOTALLY DISAGREE and will disagree every serious vinyl collector. There is simply no comparison in pressing and material between UK, Europe vinyls and USA golden era vinyls. USA are definitely da best not only for the sound, as I said it is better the paper, they are carefully protected by cellophane (UK vinyls incredible to say never ever coming out protected by cellophane) and I can go ahead for hours. The groove of the vinyl, becouse of the high quality of the mastering and pressing, i much more tolerant to turntables imperfections, think about beloved and mythologic Columbia records and the years ahead of the time Dynaflex vinyls from RCA.

Now, a question: did you had, long long ago, a copy of an american vinyl? I know, becouse I've been in UK often especially when I was a rocking kid boy that in UK it wasn't easy back in the seventies to get USA import (it was very easy both in Italy and France, thankx god), then I can remember some spare record store got import in London too, it wasn't cheap, so probably you didn't buy a brand new USA vinyl at times, this is probably the reason becouse you base your judge on some "vinyl forum" (which?) around the web..

no it was a USA based forum although a few were outside USA it seems

I had a quick look at my albums and yes I do have some, Frampton Comes Alive is USA, it does smell more, not vey nice either, plastic/petroleum sort of smell. Also I have 2 made in Germany and 1 in Holland.

 

[VOE]

Interesting POV but it won't surprise you to learn I completely disagree with you - there has never been a better time to buy a t/table. Vinyl is back in production and taking off. Just look at the videos of Music On Vinyl on YouTube. Look at the scale of vinyl record production in full swing, with that company alone. Many audiophile pressings exist today and can be bought much cheaper than inferior Japanese pressings from the 1970's. To enjoy the benefits of analogue you don't have to buy a £3000/5000/10,000 table. Project make the best models for the lowest prices. Any modern t/table design for £3-500 upwards will suffice. Incidentally, I have owned Garrards, Lenco's, Linn's (including over-rated LP12), Xerxes and others. None of them can match the better products in production today. Rega and Project offer a great range for all budgets. I'd rather spend money on a new table than waste money upgrading an old Linn!

Dare I mention Origin Live? Mark Baker makes some wonderful stuff too. A £1000 Aurora table can see off the "entry level" LP12 for a fraction of the money. Don't believe me? Why not audition one?

 

[Neptune_Twilight]

@lindsayt:

There is an EMT going for $11,000 on Ebay: At what price point roughly do you feel a TT surpasses digital as a source considering the digital source is well mastered in comparison to a none warped, well pressed, hole in centre LP & assuming the TT has a decent stylus & fluff free - I have heard some half decent turntables such as Linn & Roksan but from your comments these are really lesser & because I didn’t feel these sound superior to digital I need to move up greatly.

Are you saying for most people digital is preferable unless they intend to move up market from a humble Sondeck for example? Even then there is still no guarantee that I will prefer a turntable to digital regardless of cost but there must be a crossover point somewhere with a figure on it - You do have me in a corner as I have never heard an EMT, but I have heard a live band a few times & that has to be my reference.

For unknown reasons I cannot quote on this site at the moment.

 

[chebby]

You do have me in a corner as I have never heard an EMT ...

You probably have (possibly a lot of times) especially if you listened to a lot of BBC radio in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Neptune_Twilight]

You do have me in a corner as I have never heard an EMT ...

You probably have (possibly a lot of times) especially if you listened to a lot of BBC radio in the 1970s and 1980s.

If I remember correctly & this is going back sometime, the Thorens TD150 I owned had printed on it 'made under licence by EMT in Germany'?

 

[chebby]

You do have me in a corner as I have never heard an EMT ...

You probably have (possibly a lot of times) especially if you listened to a lot of BBC radio in the 1970s and 1980s.

If I remember correctly & this is going back sometime, the Thorens TD150 I owned had printed on it 'made under licence by EMT in Germany'?

I am talking about the full-blown EMT 950/347 BBC broadcast turntables.

http://m.b5z.net/i/u/1608444/i/10.jpg?tm=1377353735296

http://www.stefanopasini.it/EMT950_BBC-Addendum_description.htm

 

[Neptune_Twilight]

I appreciate that it's just the first time for years I have heard (read) about ‘EMT’ & wondered where I've seen it before, every day actually.

 

[Waxy]

I've only been a member of the forums for a few weeks. This is already the 73rd CD v LP thread I've seen. *blush*

 

[MaxD]

Matt49 yes that is the point I was making. If you prefer CD over vinyl on the basis of what you've heard in your system and you haven't extensively heard a turntable of the calibre of a Pioneer Exclusive then no you don't know how good vinyl can sound. That seems logical to me. It's not about boasting. Just stating a logical argument.

Even then, even with an uber deck, if it's on a floor mounted stand next to the speakers, if the record's punched off centre, if the stylus has picked up dirt or fluff, if the stylus is worn, if the phono amplification isn't so good, if the cartridge isn't mounted with the correct geometry, if the arm bearings are worn or need adjustment, if it's a compilation album, if the record's excessivley scratched etc etc etc then it's still likely, if not certain, that CD will sound better.

If you're on a three figure budget there are turntables like the Pioneer PL71 or Kenwood KD990 or Sony PSX 6750 with a decent 2nd hand cartridge such as an Ortofon SPU that get pretty close to an EMT 950 for sound quality. I would take one of these Japanese direct drives over a Roksan Xerxes.

There are no new turntables that I can recommend for anyone to buy. There's no value in it.

I don't endorse this, I don't endorse esoteric hi-fi. I respect people that want to buy very expensive gear (I could, then I will never do it). then I don't want some newbie reading this think to enjoy a decent vinyl it is need to spend 3 or more grand (any know currency). A normal, even ortofon black pro-ject turntable (well setup, this is very important), a reasonable amplifier with a very good phono stage like a Rotel Ra-10 and a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 or Dali Zenson 3 is pretty much enough to appreciate all the warm and quality of vintage vinyl or 180gr modern vinyl if properly mastered and pressed. The total cost of this setup is like € 800 and you guys can listen very very good.

Even when a kiddie boy (I have to admit never poor, I started work in the music field when I was 14 or so), I always preferred to spend on supports, means music, means vinyls then buy esoteric hi-fi. Pretty happy about it, even if job opportunities especially in the old times offered me the option to listen to very high end setups.

 

[Vladimir]

I've only been a member of the forums for a few weeks. This is already the 73rd CD v LP thread I've seen. *blush*

Just like discussing Kale vs Bacon on a health forum. Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.

 

[nopiano]

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.

That's the best quote I've ever seen here! Now I just need to lo kip what it means. *nea*

 

[nopiano]

** look up **

spam filter

 

[chebby]

I liked the little Sisyphus animation.