matt49
Well-known member
MaxD said:
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't seen it before, but now I realize that the reason why I prefer the sound of digital to analog is that I don't know what musical instruments sound like.
I also suspect that my thinking on this subject has been terribly muddled because I've failed to use enough CAPITAL LETTERS WHEN POSTING.
Matt
As I remember with the Xerxes I had a device that was fastened to the wall at the back & then had two lengths of thick black string that went from the front then were attached to the wall above at two points. I am certainly not saying that a decent turntable does not sound amazing they do, I suppose my point is that digital I use now sounds to me great & as i've ripped 800+ albums & adding to that as I have time I've finally committed to digital & after extended listening to analogue (my bro-in-law in a Naim - Linn follower & thinks I am a Philistine) I don't see the need to move back or even add analogue.
I think it's likely we all don't hear or end up in our heads with identical results with various bits of hi-fi or music - I worked a while back in a very noisy environment & have some hearing loss so that probably makes some difference - As I've mentioned before I will probably at some point try a TT again as I can never leave well alone there is a good dealer neraby - I’m actually supposed to be cleaning the house today & music is playing in the lounge & a couple of times I’ve stopped what I’m doing & gone into that room for a listen as it sounds so good from the hall or in here, if any hi-fi does that to me (not all do) something must be very right I feel?
Edit: Grrrrrr - This was supposed to have a quote in it as it's s a reply but it failed for some reason?
I think it's likely we all don't hear or end up in our heads with identical results with various bits of hi-fi or music - I worked a while back in a very noisy environment & have some hearing loss so that probably makes some difference - As I've mentioned before I will probably at some point try a TT again as I can never leave well alone there is a good dealer neraby - I’m actually supposed to be cleaning the house today & music is playing in the lounge & a couple of times I’ve stopped what I’m doing & gone into that room for a listen as it sounds so good from the hall or in here, if any hi-fi does that to me (not all do) something must be very right I feel?
Edit: Grrrrrr - This was supposed to have a quote in it as it's s a reply but it failed for some reason?
BigH
Well-known member
MaxD said:
*stop* *crazy*
sorry max, that's just a crock of ballsacks. Just because you're using capitals doesn't make it true.
matt49 said:
By his own admission, MaxD lives quite close to the Vatican, clearly some of that Papal infalibility has rubbed off on him *mosking*
Talking of live music, managed to persuade Mrs DDC to indulge in a little promenading this yers, all things being well we shall be starting off with some english music next friday. Rather fancy the Bach the following day but the saturday will be very busy, god knows what time we will have to get there to get in.
matt49
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
I don’t think this line of argument is very effective, or should I say I don't think it's likely to persuade anyone that analog is right for them. I’m not suggesting you don’t believe in the truth of what you’re saying, just that as a strategy it seems flawed.
Your baseline position is “vinyl sounds better to me in my system”. When people say their experience has been different, you invite people to tell you what TTs they’ve used. You then trump them with your EMTs and other vintage TTs.
Now first up, this looks like one-upmanship, both on the level of the kit you own (am I right in thinking these EMTs would have cost into 5 figures when new?) and on the level of the experience you claim. That simply doesn’t look good. It may be that modesty is an overrated virtue and is generally absent on forums, but its opposite still doesn’t come across well.
Second, the argument looks a bit like “trap setting”. Wouldn’t it be more candid simply to say: “if you haven’t heard one of the top vintage decks (EMT, Pioneer Exclusive, Lenco etc), you don’t really have any idea how good vinyl can sound”. Because that’s what the argument really amounts to.
Third, if the argument really is that in order to beat a good digital set up you need to have an EMT or similar, then you have in effect damned most analog systems — and, as I understand it, all new TTs within reach of us here — to incompetence. And that really doesn’t reflect very well on analog audio as a whole, does it? Nor is it likely to fill people with a desire to investigate it.
Perhaps it would be more helpful to identify some TTs that meet your standards and are available for purchase new for (let's say) a four figure sum. Are there any?
BTW I'm not being gratuitously captious here: I have in fact been looking into buying a new TT and have tried several models recently.
Matt
Have you tried Pro-ject's "Xtension 10"? I've heard one with the 10" Evolution tone-arm and Ortofon Cadenza Black (a "standard" dealer package available) and it sounded incredible. At £3350 new I didn't think it was unreasonable at all. Mind you, I don't know how I'd get on with the "floating" heavy mass chassis.
VOE said:
no offence meant VOE, but I suspect your idea of unreasonable varies quite significantly to lot of people on here.
I fully accept I haven't heard the best there is in turntable design, there is also amplification & speakers far, far better tha. those I own, however there has for most of us a limit on what is reasonable to spend when I for one have other interests & responsibilities - Frankly if I paid £3,400 for a turntable my wife would expect not only music but the person to appear before me & dance too !
Others may be happy (or able) to spend that much & I'm happy for them & maybe a little jealous but I think you can get a pretty good sound with mid priced gear & I've heard a system recently that cost around 18 grand (when new) that unimpressed me - One thing I do is listen to a fair bit of live music & concerts & what I hear in my lounge compared to to the real thing is pretty good, in fact I think it sounds very good.
BTW I don't own a turntable at the moment Xerxes or BSR.
Others may be happy (or able) to spend that much & I'm happy for them & maybe a little jealous but I think you can get a pretty good sound with mid priced gear & I've heard a system recently that cost around 18 grand (when new) that unimpressed me - One thing I do is listen to a fair bit of live music & concerts & what I hear in my lounge compared to to the real thing is pretty good, in fact I think it sounds very good.
BTW I don't own a turntable at the moment Xerxes or BSR.
Matt49 yes that is the point I was making. If you prefer CD over vinyl on the basis of what you've heard in your system and you haven't extensively heard a turntable of the calibre of a Pioneer Exclusive then no you don't know how good vinyl can sound. That seems logical to me. It's not about boasting. Just stating a logical argument.
Even then, even with an uber deck, if it's on a floor mounted stand next to the speakers, if the record's punched off centre, if the stylus has picked up dirt or fluff, if the stylus is worn, if the phono amplification isn't so good, if the cartridge isn't mounted with the correct geometry, if the arm bearings are worn or need adjustment, if it's a compilation album, if the record's excessivley scratched etc etc etc then it's still likely, if not certain, that CD will sound better.
If you're on a three figure budget there are turntables like the Pioneer PL71 or Kenwood KD990 or Sony PSX 6750 with a decent 2nd hand cartridge such as an Ortofon SPU that get pretty close to an EMT 950 for sound quality. I would take one of these Japanese direct drives over a Roksan Xerxes.
There are no new turntables that I can recommend for anyone to buy. There's no value in it.
Even then, even with an uber deck, if it's on a floor mounted stand next to the speakers, if the record's punched off centre, if the stylus has picked up dirt or fluff, if the stylus is worn, if the phono amplification isn't so good, if the cartridge isn't mounted with the correct geometry, if the arm bearings are worn or need adjustment, if it's a compilation album, if the record's excessivley scratched etc etc etc then it's still likely, if not certain, that CD will sound better.
If you're on a three figure budget there are turntables like the Pioneer PL71 or Kenwood KD990 or Sony PSX 6750 with a decent 2nd hand cartridge such as an Ortofon SPU that get pretty close to an EMT 950 for sound quality. I would take one of these Japanese direct drives over a Roksan Xerxes.
There are no new turntables that I can recommend for anyone to buy. There's no value in it.
matt49
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
Thanks, that's clear enough.
lindsayt said:
Well, one thing that's come of this is that you've half persuaded me that I should consider buying used.
lindsayt said:
Just for clarification: is this because of the depreciation of new goods, or because new models don't compare well in SQ terms with vintage ones, or for some other reason?
Matt
BigH
Well-known member
BigH said:
I had a quick look at my albums and yes I do have some, Frampton Comes Alive is USA, it does smell more, not vey nice either, plastic/petroleum sort of smell. Also I have 2 made in Germany and 1 in Holland.
lindsayt There are no new turntables that I can recommend for anyone to buy. There's no value in it. [/quote said:
@lindsayt:
There is an EMT going for $11,000 on Ebay: At what price point roughly do you feel a TT surpasses digital as a source considering the digital source is well mastered in comparison to a none warped, well pressed, hole in centre LP & assuming the TT has a decent stylus & fluff free - I have heard some half decent turntables such as Linn & Roksan but from your comments these are really lesser & because I didn’t feel these sound superior to digital I need to move up greatly.
Are you saying for most people digital is preferable unless they intend to move up market from a humble Sondeck for example? Even then there is still no guarantee that I will prefer a turntable to digital regardless of cost but there must be a crossover point somewhere with a figure on it - You do have me in a corner as I have never heard an EMT, but I have heard a live band a few times & that has to be my reference.
For unknown reasons I cannot quote on this site at the moment.
There is an EMT going for $11,000 on Ebay: At what price point roughly do you feel a TT surpasses digital as a source considering the digital source is well mastered in comparison to a none warped, well pressed, hole in centre LP & assuming the TT has a decent stylus & fluff free - I have heard some half decent turntables such as Linn & Roksan but from your comments these are really lesser & because I didn’t feel these sound superior to digital I need to move up greatly.
Are you saying for most people digital is preferable unless they intend to move up market from a humble Sondeck for example? Even then there is still no guarantee that I will prefer a turntable to digital regardless of cost but there must be a crossover point somewhere with a figure on it - You do have me in a corner as I have never heard an EMT, but I have heard a live band a few times & that has to be my reference.
For unknown reasons I cannot quote on this site at the moment.
chebby
Well-known member
Neptune_Twilight said:
You probably have (possibly a lot of times) especially if you listened to a lot of BBC radio in the 1970s and 1980s.
chebby said:
If I remember correctly & this is going back sometime, the Thorens TD150 I owned had printed on it 'made under licence by EMT in Germany'?
chebby
Well-known member
Neptune_Twilight said:
I am talking about the full-blown EMT 950/347 BBC broadcast turntables.
http://m.b5z.net/i/u/1608444/i/10.jpg?tm=1377353735296
http://www.stefanopasini.it/EMT950_BBC-Addendum_description.htm
I appreciate that it's just the first time for years I have heard (read) about ‘EMT’ & wondered where I've seen it before, every day actually.
I've only been a member of the forums for a few weeks. This is already the 73rd CD v LP thread I've seen. *blush*
lindsayt said:
I don't endorse this, I don't endorse esoteric hi-fi. I respect people that want to buy very expensive gear (I could, then I will never do it). then I don't want some newbie reading this think to enjoy a decent vinyl it is need to spend 3 or more grand (any know currency). A normal, even ortofon black pro-ject turntable (well setup, this is very important), a reasonable amplifier with a very good phono stage like a Rotel Ra-10 and a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 or Dali Zenson 3 is pretty much enough to appreciate all the warm and quality of vintage vinyl or 180gr modern vinyl if properly mastered and pressed. The total cost of this setup is like € 800 and you guys can listen very very good.
Even when a kiddie boy (I have to admit never poor, I started work in the music field when I was 14 or so), I always preferred to spend on supports, means music, means vinyls then buy esoteric hi-fi. Pretty happy about it, even if job opportunities especially in the old times offered me the option to listen to very high end setups.
Waxy said:
Just like discussing Kale vs Bacon on a health forum. Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.
nopiano
Well-known member
That's the best quote I've ever seen here! Now I just need to lo kip what it means. *nea*Vladimir said:
nopiano
Well-known member
chebby
Well-known member
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