How much budget and expensive DACs differs?

[RajanM]

If we fed same PCM signal to a budget and expensive DACs, how much the output analog signal differs?

Example Gadgets:
FiiO JadeAudio KA1 vs KA17

I just want to know benefit we get buy spending more.

Update:
Just to be clear, I got 2 questions here,
1. Performance of DAC chip inside example gadgets (PCM in and Analog signal out)
2. Performance of Gadgets as a whole (MP3 in and Amplified signal out)

 

[DCarmi]

Answering that question is difficult because I doubt many people have done detailed comparison of such devices.

It does depend what output device is plugged it. If you have decent headphones then you may want something a bit higher up the "DAC tree". The power output of the KA1 is less than the KA17 so more demanding headphones with a higher resistance would probably benefit from the KA17.

That said Headfonia have reviews of both devices.
Take a look at: https://www.headfonia.com/fiio-ka17-review/ where you will also find review links of several devices in the range.

 

[daytona600]

DACs £29 budget , £350,000 Highend will sound different

 

[Vincent Kars]

This I do think a nice example what 10.000 buys you

Bricasti M1SE Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Bricasti Audio M1SE balanced stereo DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $10,000: The indication says M1 but owner tells me it has the "SE" upgrade. I have been a fan of the industrial design of Bricasti audio products since I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SeattleChris]

Link below to post regarding my upgrade from a $100 DAC to a $700 DAC. My thoughts seem to be similar to most people here: if you're a casual listener you'll probably be fine with a $100 DAC, but if you're a critical listener you'll probably appreciate a more expensive DAC. However, which one suits your tastes is the issue. I got lucky with my upgrade.

DAC upgrade from Schiit Modi 3+?

Hello - Earlier this year I started streaming Amazon HD through a Schiit Modi 3+ DAC to my home hi-fi system. I'm amazed at the soundstage and believe I got really lucky with the Modi 3+ which cost only $100. My question for those of you with multiple-DAC experience: do you believe there's a...

forums.whathifi.com

 

[Gray]

I just want to know benefit we get buy spending more.

YOU would have to compare and be the judge of any benefit.

I remember reading about a blind comparison of a £20 and a £2000 DAC, done by a panel of listeners.
Their verdict was a resounding "no difference".

However, those that have spent big (on any component) will give you plenty of reasons why expensive is always better than cheap 😉
.....it isn't.

 

[daytona600]

DCS Vivaldi Stack 4 box

 

[Stuart83]

This I do think a nice example what 10.000 buys you

Bricasti M1SE Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Bricasti Audio M1SE balanced stereo DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $10,000: The indication says M1 but owner tells me it has the "SE" upgrade. I have been a fan of the industrial design of Bricasti audio products since I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

An interesting read.

 

[Gray]

An interesting read.

It was.
Seems like the perfect, reassuringly expensive product for snobs.

Apparently the manufacturer was honest with their quoted measurements - a level of performance you can buy for 5% of what they're charging.
Bottom line in the conclusion was that the 'audible performance should be good enough' 🤨

(The audible performance of my Kahdas Toneboard DAC is more than good enough - and it's currently available for £69.45).

 

[podknocker]

It was.
Seems like the perfect, reassuringly expensive product for snobs.

Apparently the manufacturer was honest with their quoted measurements - a level of performance you can buy for 5% of what they're charging.
Bottom line in the conclusion was that the 'audible performance should be good enough' 🤨

(The audible performance of my Kahdas Toneboard DAC is more than good enough - and it's currently available for £69.45).

Exactly. I think the most expensive DAC you can buy, in bulk, is around £50 and it's an AKM chip I think. These things are installed into circuit boards with a multitude of other components and all of them are required to give you a signal so you can then turn this into something the rest of your kit can use. ALL things being equal, I very much doubt anyone could actually hear the difference between different slices of DAC silicon. The DAC in my Audiolab Omnia is an ESS Sabre ES9038Q2M and they retail for £15 (fifteen) each and it does the job and sounds great. These chips are no longer exotic and are found in nearly everything related to multimedia. The DCS Vivaldi Stack is just overengineered and overpriced bling, for snobs. Piling on several kilos of brushed aluminium and ornate nonsense won't change a thing.

 

[A-Line]

DCS Vivaldi Stack 4 boxView attachment 7072

DCS, like Esoteric & Krell, excel in overly bright sound. Where as Ayre & Audio Research tend to sound dull/lean and unengaging.
Clearly all that glitters is not gold. To each his own...

Having attended 1000's of classical music performances over my life time I'm well aware of what constitutes good sound from unamplified sound from musical instruments, whether piano, cellos, or French horns. I've also been to many loud rock shows both indoor and stadium.

Just my opinions.

 

[idc]

There was a blind test of 6 DACs on a site called Stereomojo, but the link and site have gone now. This is a photo of the set up for the test;

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/h7qmvf/6_dac_blind_shootout

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/h7qmvf/6_dac_blind_shootout/?rdt=53101


The test was done as a knockout, with the winner in each pairing progressing to a final. The final ended up being between the most expensive and cheapest, with no clear winner.

Another ABX test here found no reliable difference;

DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever

(UPDATES BELOW) That blind test was long due, it's now done. Started with a 30$ unit (Fiio) against a 3000$ one (Forssell) and once SPL-matched (massive gain difference), no one could tell the difference in a ABX test. Then, we switched to a different set-up, using a pair of B&W CM9 speakers...

www.diyaudio.com

"Started with a 30$ unit (Fiio) against a 3000$ one (Forssell) and once SPL-matched (massive gain difference), no one could tell the difference in a ABX test.
Then, we switched to a different set-up, using a pair of B&W CM9 speakers and the Forssell against a Eximus DP1 (3500$ or so). Same result: impossible to spot them in a ABX."

Yet, somehow, I am sure there is a difference in sound between my Firstone DAC and the DAC in my MF X-CANV8P headphone amp, with the former sounding better, as in more dynamic and alive. I have not ABX tested them.

 

[Gray]

The DAC in my Audiolab Omnia is an ESS Sabre ES9038Q2M and they retail for £15 (fifteen) each and it does the job and sounds great.

That's the one my Kahdas uses.
...and it could be argued that I paid too much at around 90 quid - as it was just a PCB without a case.


Even less now:

Khadas Tone1 External Sound Card ES9038Q2M 32-Bit Stereo Mobile Audio DAC XMOS XU208 multi-core RISC Micro-Controller High Resolution Audio Board USB DAC for Audiophiles DIY(Generic Edition) https://amzn.eu/d/06ZOUivw

 

[Revolutions]

That's the one my Kahdas uses.
...and it could be argued that I paid too much at around 90 quid - as it was just a PCB without a case.View attachment 7075
View attachment 7076
View attachment 7077
Even less now:

Khadas Tone1 External Sound Card ES9038Q2M 32-Bit Stereo Mobile Audio DAC XMOS XU208 multi-core RISC Micro-Controller High Resolution Audio Board USB DAC for Audiophiles DIY(Generic Edition) https://amzn.eu/d/06ZOUivw

I’m guessing you felt offended in that you didn’t bother to put the labels on neatly 😂

Awesome idea though, and another little creation of yours I absolutely love ❤️

 

[Revolutions]

Yet, somehow, I am sure there is a difference in sound between my Firstone DAC and the DAC in my MF X-CANV8P headphone amp, with the former sounding better, as in more dynamic and alive. I have not ABX tested them.

You’re not just comparing the chip between those two, though. Different circuits etc

 

[podknocker]

That's the one my Kahdas uses.
...and it could be argued that I paid too much at around 90 quid - as it was just a PCB without a case.View attachment 7075
View attachment 7076
View attachment 7077
Even less now:

Khadas Tone1 External Sound Card ES9038Q2M 32-Bit Stereo Mobile Audio DAC XMOS XU208 multi-core RISC Micro-Controller High Resolution Audio Board USB DAC for Audiophiles DIY(Generic Edition) https://amzn.eu/d/06ZOUivw

You've made some marvellous things Gray. I got an AS level in electronics so you can imagine how useful I am with circuit boards and a soldering iron. I wish I'd made my own stuff. Might have been a lot cheaper.

 

[Gray]

I’m guessing you felt offended in that you didn’t bother to put the labels on neatly 😂

...as neat as I need....when it was hidden out of sight 😆

 

[Gray]

You've made some marvellous things Gray. I got an AS level in electronics so you can imagine how useful I am with ciruit boards and a soldering iron. I wish I'd made my own stuff. Might have been a lot cheaper.

Maths was my worst subject - that's why all I do is the odd bit of assembly and repair.....and leave the clever design stuff to the boffins.

Back on the thread subject, I really think the OP could do a lot worse than that Kahdas - it can be hidden away without even bothering with a case, it's so small.
Anything under £100 is good, but around £50 is an absolute bargain.

 

[Dom]

I failed at school. I failed at music technology course and failed computer music software too.

I made bad music. Except for one track which a mate listened too once in a while.

Anyway what were we talking about again?

 

[DougK1]

I failed at school. I failed at music technology course and failed computer music software too.

I made bad music. Except for one track which a mate listened too once in a while.

Anyway what were we talking about again?

As long as you're reasonably content and happy with your life Dom then you haven't failed at life, which is the hardest test of all

 

[Dom]

As long as you're reasonably content and happy with your life Dom then you haven't failed at life, which is the hardest test of all

That's an interesting question, one with many answers, but I think if your a good person you have succeeded.
Its also nice to make friends like you mate.

 

[Revolutions]

That's an interesting question, one with many answers, but I think if your a good person you have succeeded.
Its also nice to make friends like you mate.

At 42 I finally learnt some bits about electronics & soldering so I could recap a few 70s amps.

Then, full of confidence after my newfound abilities I built a fuzz pedal from a kit. It doesn’t work 🤣

Maybe I should start to build DACs like Grays. The key selling point is jeopardy: it might work, it might not.

 

[Dom]

At 42 I finally learnt some bits about electronics & soldering so I could recap a few 70s amps.

Then, full of confidence after my newfound abilities I built a fuzz pedal from a kit. It doesn’t work 🤣

Maybe I should start to build DACs like Grays. The key selling point is jeopardy: it might work, it might not.

I'm sorry your fuzz pedal didn't work.

 

[Revolutions]

I'm sorry your fuzz pedal didn't work.

Thanks 🙏

It’s a good excuse to get the multimeter out & understand the current flows to learn how it works. Not just follow a diagram.

Probably won’t help the OP, but I’m finding myself in a world where a preamp with dac could be an interesting option. Use the WiiM purely as streamer.