Higher Price Denons No Good?

[kinda]

Hello,

I'm doing some demoing at the moment and have liked the sound of the Denon 1911 best so far after trying Pioneer VSX 920, (bass control and solidity lacking for me), and Yamaha RXV-3900, (good but not the solid sound I liked and not a big enough step up to justify £750 extra).

So I was set to work my way up the Denon amps until the extra performance became not worth the price.

However, the dealer I'm working with has said that they don't demo the Denons higher up as it's pointless: the similar priced Pioneers blow them away. Ten they're saying if I don't like the sound of the VSX 920 I'd need to go to the ICE amped Pioneers to get a significant increase in sound quality.

What they seem effectively to be telling me is that the Denons don't improve much in actual sound quality above the 1911 up to about £1400 and that with my taste in sound I'd only see a significant improvement by going for £1700 amps.

To be honest it sounds like rubbish but before I go in again for a further discussin and mabe lay down an ultimatum on the demoing or walk away, which will cause me potentially some issues, I just wanted to find out is there any merit or sense in what they're saying? Are they just saving me pointless demos?

I think I know the answer and I'd like to hear the evidence of how the amps sound for myself, but any advice or experience would be very much appreciated.

 

[bigboss]

The dealer is talking rubbish. There is a significant difference as you move higher up the Denon range.

Recently, I spoke to a dealer regarding Distance Selling Regulations, & he told me that he only keeps the Denon 1910 for demo & doesn't allow the demo of higher models, because, once opened, they can't be sold as new (& of course, you can't even sell them online).

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,I can definalety say that when I demoed the denon 1910 and 2310 this year the step up to the 2310 was a step up in performance a crisper sound and a bit more clearer.

 

[Pistol Pete1]

I agree with simoncar...

I demo'd the Denon, 2310 and Onkyo 607 in one sitting.

The 2310 was far superior in sound quality to the other two......and had more depth of bass, clairty and detail compared with the 1910.....

 

[kinda]

Thanks, that's been really useful and gives me a bit of an idea of why they don't want to demo the higher Denons! They seem to have taken a similar line with Marantz and don't have any AV amps in for demo, or Onkyo amps.

The step up Denon seems worthwhile, (would be 2311 at this shop), but can anyone confirm if it's metal or not? I've seen some comments it's plastic and can't see anything on the Denon site about it, (though ominously 3311 is stated as aluminium).

On the topic of the 3311 has anyone tried this or the 3310? Is it a lot better than the 2310/11? But I guess having an RRP £1200 amp with £1600 style speakers, (Tannoy Arena), is oveill and I'll miss a lot of the benefit?

Thanks again for the info already given.

 

[Pistol Pete1]

It was suggested that the 2310 was the 'sweet spot' in the Denon range last year.....

2311 came out as a 5 star product, but others have better'd it now......so it's a four star product.

No idea about the 3311.......3310 was a four star product again, I think.......

In my opinion, if your using the Tannoy Arena style system, I'd go for the 2310/2311 range........

 

[Frank Harvey]

There will be certain models in any manufacturer's range that will sound similar, or won't give a great deal of difference up to the next model. As a general breakdown, I'd say that the £400/450 receivers are all much of a muchness - all excellent for the money, but are on the receiving end of being kept within a relatively low budget, while trying to pack everything in possible. The next jump up is to the £700-ish receivers that have more power and authority. Next up is the £1,000-,1500 price point which gets you a much more capable receiver that can handle 4ohm speakers. Then there's quite a step up when moving to the receivers around the £2k mark. These receivers are so good, the main reason for going for anything higher than this would be if you're looking to fill a dedicated home cinema room with reference level loveliness, and/or driving awkward hi-fi speakers.

 

[kinda]

Hello,

Thanks for all this advice, and I do feel it's helping me to make a call.

Dave, am I understanding you right in saying that the main benefit in moving from £700 - 800 to £1000 - 1500 is more about driving bigger / more current hungry speakers and getting a wider set of installation and integration features than a huge jump in sound quality?

It sounds like a 2K receiver is pretty future proof in terms of sound quality. However I've got no plans to make large upgrades to my Arena setup in the next few years. Would the extra sound quality above a £700 - 800 receiver be wasted in the shorter term?

Also, can anybody confirm if the 2311 is plastic rather than metal?

sorry about the extra questions. It sounds like the 2311 may be the fella for me. I've heard a Denon with the Arena before and liked it and it's the sound I'm finding most appealing in recent demos, and it sounds like it might be the right balance of cost to sound quality.

However, I might ask them to give me a listen to the VSX 2020 just to see if I like a more clinical receiver when it's not at the budget end. Hopefully it might be more solid than the 920.

Once again thanks for the help.

 

[Pistol Pete1]

The 2310 is plastic, so I imagine the 2311 will be too.......

I think the more expensive model's in the range are metal....probably to increase the weight of the machine so you think you have more quality components in it to create a better sound....

 

[markyd]

Hi kinda,

I would imagine too the 2311 has a plastic facia like the 2310 it looks the same in pictures.

After seeing it in the flesh, for me it was the deal breaker.

Sorry if I sound superficial, but I couldnt justify spending the extra money on it and went for an older inferior sounding amp with a far more reasuring metal facia and knobs. Obviously that was not the only reason, but plastic just seemed such a cheap skate option for something that was otherwise expensive.

Im not saying that everything that's cheaply made is not worth it ( I bought a sony s570, and that is very poor) , and I'll probably get critisised for this - but I want to feel the quality, if I am pushing the financial boat out. At £800 an amp should be built like a battleship. No excuses.

I don't know why build quality of low-mid range components has dropped off a cliff lately. Why am I made to feel by dealers that I'm always harping on about the 'good old days' of construction standards.

 

[Frank Harvey]

All Denon AV receivers from the AVR1911 have bushed aluminium facias.

kinda:Dave, am I understanding you right in saying that the main benefit in moving from £700 - 800 to £1000 - 1500 is more about driving bigger / more current hungry speakers and getting a wider set of installation and integration features than a huge jump in sound quality?I've generalised in what I've said - sometimes the next model up may have better processing or better DACs, for example. I've always found that receivers of around £1,000 upwards are needed for 4ohm speakers and higher quality packages like Monitor Audio RX (packages of around £2k upwards). And yes, sometimes there may be very little difference as far as sound quality is concerned.

It sounds like a 2K receiver is pretty future proof in terms of sound quality. However I've got no plans to make large upgrades to my Arena setup in the next few years. Would the extra sound quality above a £700 - 800 receiver be wasted in the shorter term?£2k receivers seem to be in a different world to anything below them, and it seems they're far less compromised in almost every area when compared to cheaper receivers. With one or two cheaper exceptions, this is where the really serious stuff starts. Again, I'm making generalisations, so please don't take what I say the wrong way! The £700/800 receivers are much better than their more entry level little brothers. Then their bigger, 4 figure brothers are better and more capable, with the top notch stuff starting around £2k. (I just know I'm digging a grave saying that!!)

sorry about the extra questions. It sounds like the 2311 may be the fella for me. I've heard a Denon with the Arena before and liked it and it's the sound I'm finding most appealing in recent demos, and it sounds like it might be the right balance of cost to sound quality.

However, I might ask them to give me a listen to the VSX 2020 just to see if I like a more clinical receiver when it's not at the budget end. Hopefully it might be more solid than the 920.I would ask to hear a beter receiver - at least then you can dismiss or consider it in your own mind safe in the knowledge that have heard it, and not thought afterwards, "what if".

 

[kinda]

Thanks again for all the comments and the information.

I'm looking forward to hearing the 2020 tomorrow. Thinking back with the Marantz I suppose I did sometimes wish I could turn up the volume of the other sounds witohut the bass increasing, but messing with sub volume and amp balance never really came off. When my sub was away for a repair I sort of started liking the sound, but obviously ultimately I missed the bass.

I'm only going to have time for one amp demo tomorrow I think, but can always try to listen to others later. The LX53 looks very similar to the 2020 in paper, and anything beyond that is really getting out of my price range.

Bit disappointed no 7.1 in, but I suppose I should be future proofed for a bit, and hopefully any new sound decoding would allow an input of digital 7.1 into the HDMI anyway. Also only one subwoofer out, but no firm plans to add a second, and I'm thinking some sort of splitter could be used anyway? Other than that the spec's pretty impressive.

If I decide I'm going with the Denons I'll see what I can do in terms of a demo. Good to know the Denons are all aluminium. Markyd, I too would have been struggling to be happy buying a plastic receiver at £800.

Once again thanks for all the advice.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd be very interested in what you think about the 2020 as I'm looking to buy one myself but couldn't find any reviews on the net. I've discovered that the 2020 and the LX53 are not just similar, they are identical - at least in terms of specs and looks. They even share the same user manual: http://pioneer.ipapercms.dk/Manuals/VSX_2020_K_ARB7441_VSX_LX53_manual/. The only difference seems to be the Bluetooth dongle, which is included with the LX53 but not with the 2020. Maybe the build quality is different, but from the pictures they certainly look identical.

I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion!

 

[kinda]

Hello,

Happy to help.

Yes, on paper the VSX 2020 is exactly the same as the LX-53, but without Bluetooth dongle. I asked after the demo if it was the same or a step up and was basically told it isn't really and unles you want the dongle then maybe not worthwhile..

I had the demo on Saturday. The KEF speaker atock was all being replaced and so the demo was with the B&W MT-30 which I've found not to be quite as detailed, solid at the bottom end, or good at the top end as my Tannoy Arena, (though others may disagree).

The BluRay player was a Pioneer as well. Didn't take much notice of the model though it may have been an LX-52 or 53 as they have those around.

Films I was very impressed with, and it created a big sound stage with plenty of detail and a natural feel. It did sound very cinematic and in the same way that in the cinema the sound can be loud and permeating without seeming overbearing or harsh so this was, though I mostly ran at conservative volumes I'd be happy to have at home.

There was good texture to the sound and I feel that I heard some things I hadn't heard before in a couple of the scenes I know well. The Dolby Digital intro on the Stargate DVD sounded great and the trumpet at the beginning of We Own The Night also sounded excellent and very realistic. I feel these were better than I'd heard them before with my SR6001 or similar priced Denons from a couple oif years ago.

In addition there have been a couple of films on my setup where the voices have refused to be anything like as loud as the other sounds, despite various tweaks. With this amplifier that problem was cured, and the dialogue was fine.

The only downside on the films was a overblown sound in the middle of the beginning of the Star Trek BluRay, and the fact that DVD DD soundtracks often seemed a bit subdued and quiet in comparison to DTS or BluRay soundtracks. Not sure what to make of that as yet.

Music, via the BluRay player using the amp's DACs, and again the sound was very detailed and natural, but the lowed frequencies still did have impact and were generally well controlled. I heard bits in songs a couple of times that I hadn't really noticed before and the details and voices were expressed well.

The bass seemed more 'porous' than I'm used to, somehow less solid, though that may not actually be a bad thing. Also, it did go slightly boomy I felt on one track, but could have been the room / setup, and on Superstylin while it created a good atmospher with the often subtle sounds this track has, it didn't seem to bring out the bass line quite as much as I'm used to at times.

So on a first listening I'd say the cinema sound was great, eoth a couple of minor fobiles as above, and enjoyable music reproduction with plenty of detail, but maybe not the last word on rhythm and bass control. I'm prepared to put down the slight boom and bit on Star Trek maybe to the setup in the demo room.

From what I remember of hearing the SR6001 and similar Denons I feel the film presentation on the Pioneer is better with a more cinematic feel, and better atmoshpere and detail plus clearer dialogue than my Marantz.

For music it isn't so clear cut as while I appreciate the Pioneer benefits I somehow liked the solid and slightly more rythmic sound of the Marantz or Denon. It's more different than outright better as such to me. It's a bit like how I can a[preciate the more airy and sometimes more detailed sound on my iPod Touch but still liked the solidity of the Marantz better, but my tastes may be changing a bit.

I think overall the Marantz and Denons I've heard produce a more solid sound, but the Pioneer is more airy and slightly more detailed and natural, but it's maybe a call on taste in the end.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you very much for your opinion and for taking the time to post it! Much appreciated.

 

[kinda]

No problem.

I think though I'd like to update the review a bit in light of further thoughts.

I realised when I had the review I hadn't seen a projector, heard surround sound, or been in the cinema for a number of weeks, and wondered if I was just impressed byt the whole experience.

Currently having no AV amp, I hooked up my Toshiba XDE 500 via it's stereo out to both my Marantz PM4200 stereo amp and sub using splitters.

Notwithstanding the obvious issues of connecting like this, (having to set sub and amp volumes separately, using probably reasonably poor DACs in the Toshiba, 2.1 only), the sound was actually impressive.

I did get a cinematic feel, and while so far the detail isn't quite as obvious as with the VSX 2020 it is there, without massive volume and without being tiring. I'm going to try upping the treble and see what that does. Music also is better in terms of the sense of how it hangs together and the solidity of the lower frequencies, even if I turn the sub off. Superstylin still has the atmosphere, but the nunderpinning baseline is much clearer and more solid.

Need to do a bit more thinking and listening, but I'm leaning toward just getting something like the Marantz NR1601 which hopefully should sound at least as good, hopefully better, than my ad-hoc stereo setup, especially when fed with HD audio, and it cand 9.1 out of the box. Even if ultimately the detail is slightly better with the VSX 2020 I'm not convinced it's worth twice the price, and getting an NR1601 and bigger front speakers instead would probably be a better upgrade, though I don't intend to change speakers right now.

But I'm going to visit a cinema also and see which type of sound is nearer to that experience. If the VSX 2020 is offering something very cinematic it may still be ion the table.