Hifi vs Surround Sound

[bereke70]

Hi all,

I am looking for a system to play good stereo music as well as good surround sound. After reading various posts and reviews I understand that this is hard to come by with the same system.

Is a soundbar a good solution to provide good surround sound without all the hazzle of wires and multiple speakers. Heard the Yamaha soundbar is excellent.

For the stereo I need advise on what (pre-) amp and speakers I need to buy. I don't want a cd-player anymore. Very interested in streaming music and ripping my excisting cd collection. Would love to use an Ipad to control both systems.

Is a DAC a good solution. A server/NAS?

As you can read I am a newbie.

Really looking forward to your expert feedback. My budget excluding TV is around £ 3000.

 

[Vladimir]

On this forum it will be stereo. On AVS forum the answer will be surround.

 

[CnoEvil]

You might consider a Linn Sneaky DSM, which is very good for 2 channel and has very versitile digital connections as well as pre-outs for a Sub. This will get you going and you can add 5.1 at a later date if you feel the need. It pairs well with the Kef R Series.

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Sneaky_DSM

http://www.linn.co.uk/all-products/network-music-players/sneaky-dsm

 

[John Duncan]

If I was starting again, I'd buy a network-enabled bluray player (with a good tablet based UI) and a good receiver from Marantz or Yamaha. I'd probably stick with 4.0 - no centre, no sub - because of the size and arrangement if my living room.

I'd use a good front stereo pair and a modest, small surround pair for discretion's sake.

 

[jacking]

Most hard Hi-Fi people would only ever have a single stereo pair in the room at one time with possibly a powered sub, I used to be that way but eventually gave in to 5.1 and then when I moved to where I now live I bought a top Yamaha sound bar. Whilst the virtual surround is very good, two chanel stereo is poor. So bad that I have had to buy a seperate pair of powered Audio Engine+ speakers. This defeats the whole soundbar concept, but I do get first class stereo again. My previous 5.1 system was the first of the Kef egg ones and it must be in it's third incarnation by now. If you don't mind a compromise you'll find the stereo is very good without being exceptional, but if stereo is your priority then single pairs are the only way.

 

[bigfish786]

can't see the point of loads of speakers when you only have 2 ears, and one brain to process it all.

 

[jjbomber]

If you don't mind second hand, the Naim n-Vi is the weapon of choice. They go for about £600 on the second hand market. One of the few amps that is happy with both surround sound and stereo, it remains one of the greatest products that Naim ever made. Unfotunately at launch the screens kept packing up. just about every n-Vi ever made has been back for a new screen and they are now super reliable. Naim in their (lack of) wisdom pulled them soon after.

Add a streaming device of your choice with a digital output. The Naim has 1 optical and 2 coaxial inputs. Speakers are very much a personal choice. You MUST listen to a few of the various brands out there to find what is best for you.

 

[John Duncan]

If they did one with a bluray player in it, I'd buy one tomorrow.

 

[andyjm]

Hi all,

I am looking for a system to play good stereo music as well as good surround sound. After reading various posts and reviews I understand that this is hard to come by with the same system.

Is a soundbar a good solution to provide good surround sound without all the hazzle of wires and multiple speakers. Heard the Yamaha soundbar is excellent.

For the stereo I need advise on what (pre-) amp and speakers I need to buy. I don't want a cd-player anymore. Very interested in streaming music and ripping my excisting cd collection. Would love to use an Ipad to control both systems.

Is a DAC a good solution. A server/NAS?

As you can read I am a newbie.

Really looking forward to your expert feedback. My budget excluding TV is around £ 3000.

A good surround system can certainly be found for playing stereo, but not at the same price as a stereo only system. Multi speaker setups are also much harder to integrate into a room successfully.

If you have the time, money and test equipment to set it up, a good AV system can hold its own with anything that a two speaker system can throw at it, but it may just be easier and cheaper to go with plain old stereo.

 

[the record spot]

Ditched stereo amps when they couldn't keep up with the pace of change in how we source our audio these days. Bought my Onkyo 818 amp and never looked back. Terrific amp, all the connectivity I need, all the functionality I want and it's got some futureproofing too to an extent. The networked services built in are excellent too. New £1000, bought mine end of line new for substantially less and you could expect to find one for around £500. Andrew Everard, formerly of this parish, uses one at home and really rates it. See also Noel Keywood at Hi Fi World who gave it a good review a couple of years ago.

 

[steve_1979]

can't see the point of loads of speakers when you only have 2 ears, and one brain to process it all.

Because with two ears your brain can detect what direction sounds are coming from in 360 degrees.

To make those sounds come at you from 360 degrees you need to have speakers behind you as well as in front.

 

[ellisdj]

so far little to no help given.

I would suggest as a complete newbie to not get awashed in the sea of online chat, opinions and reviews.

Go somewhere (good dealer) armed with your budget and what you want the system to do - cut a good deal on it all and come home fully laden with a full system of new toys after listening to some setups / options and then come on here for advice on how to set it up to its best 🙂

Its a falacy that Home Theatre doesnt do good stereo - most people just dont set things up right I beleieve.

 

[matthewpiano]

so far little to no help given.

I would suggest as a complete newbie to not get awashed in the sea of online chat, opinions and reviews.

Go somewhere (good dealer) armed with your budget and what you want the system to do - cut a good deal on it all and come home fully laden with a full system of new toys after listening to some setups / options and then come on here for advice on how to set it up to its best 🙂

Its a falacy that Home Theatre doesnt do good stereo - most people just dont set things up right I beleieve.

Great advice.

 

[Leeps]

The comment about 2 ears is just plain funny. When you hear traffic in the street, or music at a live acoustic gig, are all the sounds coming from two isolated places in front of you? Nope. Our ears and brain are more complex devices than you give them credit for. In the real world sound is constantly coming from all directions and our brain is very capable indeed at processing all these sounds; figuring out which direction each of the sounds are coming from and which ones are important to you at that moment. You can be in a crowded room, but if someone shouts your name your brain can immediately filter this out from everything else you're hearing and make your head turn in the direction the voice is coming from.

Surround sound makes some attempt to duplicate this real-world effect.

So anyway, here are your main choices:

1. Stereo only system using all your budget. It ought to sound good playing all 2-channel sources, but will often be very limited when playing movies. It lacks the control and flexibility of an AV system, in particular to control the dialogue which in many movie mixes is overwhelmed by the effects from other channels. However if you use your system primarily for music, you might be able to live with this, as many forum members do and are very happy with their set-ups,

2. Splitting your budget between some kind of AV system AND a stereo system. The problem with this is that as you're buying more components, the quality of all of them reduces according to your total budget, and personally I've not yet heard a decent soundbar. Massively overrated things. The only one I'd consider demo'ing would the the Monitor Audio ASB2 plus a sub, but then it's starting to get pretty expensive considering its limitations. Yes, you could use pre-outs of an AV receiver into a stereo amp, but this begins to eat up the budget again and does make the system that little bit more complicated in use.

3. AV only system. The advantage of something like a Pioneer SC-LX57 with a suitable speaker package (KEF R for instance) is its flexibility. You can stream from a NAS, stream native Spotify, internet radio and choose to present music differently. You can go 'pure direct' 2 channel, or as I often do for most music types, use Extended Stereo through all available channels. I've recently purchased a number of Bluray Audio-only discs mixed in 5.1, and they sound absolutely stunning. This kind of system is also more flexible in how you use your budget. You can begin by spending all your budget on sources, receiver and the front 3 speakers, adding subwoofer & rears later on.

I use my system primarily for music and 90% of the time I'm playing music I'm extremely happy with it. However there are some types of music that show up some limitations that my old stereo system didn't have. But then my stereo wasn't great at all musical genres either.

On balance I'm very happy with my 5.1 system, mainly because it'll play a variety of music sources with a number of different presentations. If I sold it and purchased a stereo only system I'd really miss its ipad control, its flexibility, features and the type of sounds its capable of, but I accept that a system like this isn't for everyone.

If it was me with your budget, I'd ignore option 2, decide the percentage of the time you play music vs movies, take a bunch of CD's and Blurays or whatever you use as a source and ask a dealer to set up a music & movie demo session. Just be sure to get the dealer to play stereo sound using Extended Stereo (or the non-Pioneer equivalent) as to my ears this sounds so much better than pure direct when you weight the fader slightly in favour of the front speakers. ALL the above options have compromises somewhere. You just have to figure out with your wallet and your ears what's the most important for you.

Sorry for the rather waffly post; I hope at least some of it will be useful to you.

 

[aob9]

For me I only listen to music, I rarely watch T.V or movies so I invested in stereo.

 

[JMacMan]

Firstly, if you're planning on playing more than two channel media, either now or in the future, then a stereo only system, is a waste of time and money, to be terribly blunt... :wall:

Forget the naysayers that argue you can't have a good 2 channel and mulit-channel unified system.

It's a rear guard action by die hard stereo purists, who would probably prefer a mono system if they could still buy it.

It was also a grand marketing ploy by various well known 'high end' stereo manufactuers to keep you buying so called 'superior' stereo systems over 'inferior' surround capable ones, until 'they' came out with their allegedly 'superior' add on surround sound processors for their customers exisiting stereo systems of course. :boohoo:

I still own a Sony ES TA-DA9000ES 7 channel digital amp, which I prefer on sonic grounds to something hallowed in the stereo world, such as a Naim NAC552/NAP500 combination for example. And yes I've heard it - quite extensively in fact.

IMHO & E it wold be hard to go past a good upper end Yamaha multichannel amp for value and performance.

Couple with passive speakers of your choice, plus sub, and you're good to go - and for a very long time if you don't read hyped up magazine reviews designed to make you uncomfortable with what you've got and get you to consume more kit, or listen to audiophile amateurs who get there jollies off by telling you how crap your system is, and how much better it will be when you listen to, suprise, surprise, them.

Funds permitting, an option would be a good SS processor, and couple with some active speakers from the Pro world - excellent value for money, and no amateurs involved in the design and mixing and matching audiophile mantra beloved by specialist (amateur) HiFi retailers

OK, that's a bit harsh, they will be professional salespeople.

I wouldn't waste time with soundbars, as I'd wager whilst they're good at making up for the deficit of crappy TV speakers/audio, the phase effects they rely upon to 'create' a fake surround, are something that once the novelties worn off, you will quickly tire of.

I'm not a newbie, so the advice I offer might be a tad cynical, but it's born out of over 40 odd years of experience in this 'hobby', so I hope you may find something helpful to be gleaned from it nonetheless

All the best

JMac :cheers:

 

[ellisdj]

I think its important not to get carried away - to suggest average av will best proper stereo equipment is a false promise.

In the right environment the av equipment would pale in conparison but nearly all people dont have this so dont experience it

Typical AV will do good stereo - if setup right good enough for most people,

However those who know better this will not be enough.

Av has 1 advantage - ease of sub integration.

Getting good bass out of speakers is extremely difficult due to room constraints, subs are much easier if you know what your doing - as.dsp helps.

Av however is generally packed with components all giving off noise, max features minimum money.

Hi Fi is the opposite so will sound generally better.

 

[bigboss]

I would suggest investing in a good AV system first, with facility of pre-outs on the AV receiver. If you're not happy with stereo music, you can always add a stereo amplifier later when funds allow. Personally, I'm very happy with music out of my AV system and don't feel the need to add a stereo amplifier.

 

[Xanderzdad]

I would suggest investing in a good AV system first, with facility of pre-outs on the AV receiver. If you're not happy with stereo music, you can always add a stereo amplifier later when funds allow. Personally, I'm very happy with music out of my AV system and don't feel the need to add a stereo amplifier.

I would second this. I went this route (and have added a stereo amp - although not necessary - only if you want). Gives the best of both worlds and allows you to add onto the AV amp if (and only if) you personally feel the need.

There are a number of very good AV amps out there and I imagine you'll love the sound from any of them.

 

[bigboss]

Just to add; the reason people go for a stereo amplifier is to listen to music as close to the studio master as possible. Movie soundtrack is not recorded in stereo mode, so it's impossible to get close to the studio master with just 2 speakers.

If you watch movies at all, I believe a 5.1 surround sound system is the minimum you need. JD has compromised on both the most important components: the centre speaker and a subwoofer.

 

[pmconcierge]

I feel a bit of logic is needed as a I cannot believe what some have said to you. A stereo amp has far fewer parts than an av receiver so it is nigh on impossible for the av amp to match a similarly priced stereo amp for music. For example 2 Audi r8's would cost approx £250k whereas if u had to buy 7 audi's all u could get is 7 basic Audi tt's. Difference in performance. I think so! This fact affects the amp and will also affect the speakers. My advice would definitely be to buy a good pair of floorstanders and to consider a stereo amp with some digital connections, and if you want the flexibility then get an av amp so u can max out your system in the future into a 5.0 system. The argument someone made about clarity is ridiculous. A £1000 pair of stereo speakers will obviously have better clarity than a £1000 surround system. Another valid point is that the more speakers the harder to balance the set up.Stereo set up is far easier to optimise.

 

[jmjones]

Hi,

Many options exist and I'd be the first to say "Find a good dealer and try them out" but without some guidance you can be bewildered by the choices available!

I put a lot of work into my system over the years, and have made some expensive mistakes on the journey. I've found my current setup to be very good for music and movies, plus it is flexible enough to make the most of networking facilities, so a lot depends on what exactly you want it to do.

I use:

Oppo 105 disc player. Plays any disc or file format I've thrown at it. Acts as a network player from my NAS, has HDMI connection for the sky box. It has a limited number of inputs to the DAC, but they include optical, usb and coax. In my opinion it beats the Tag McLaren units I had previously for flexibility AND sound quality, which given the prices involved was quite some achievement. Downside - it is just a player; playlists, Spotify and the like require something else to be added. In my case a PC. If you only have one system to worry about I would consider whether Direct Attached Storage vs a NAS is required. A DAS cuts out the network, but conversely, cuts out the network.

Amp - I have a good power amp with the Oppo doing all the volume and network control. You could substitute a multi-channel amp with networking capabilities if you really are never going to play discs again. One less box. I spent some time listening to the latest Pioneer range and thought it was excellent. Most of the "big boys" have an iPad app now, but I thought the Pioneer version was very good.

I'd suggest a speaker set based on a good stereo pair with "Add-on" surround units. Kef & Monitor Audio have been my favourites over the years but there are lots. Lifestyle speaker systems never seemed to quite get there for my needs, and unusually I've never felt the need for a sub-woofer. If you feel the need for more wallop, audition a transmission line design, but not everyone would agree with that.

I'd suggest that a stereo only system may limit future options, and a multi-channel setup with strong stereo bias is a good way to go. Whatever you use as a player - network player, disc player or source/DAC needs to be as future proof as possible. As an example, the Oppo will play DSD files (when I manage to find any!).

But back to square one - try things at a good dealer, with an idea of how you want the system to operate and play.

Good luck and have fun in the selection process. 🙂