HiFi - Imagination, Exaggeration and Colouration?

[Vladimir]

You give them scientific research to get great sound and they will degrade and refuse any scientific result or reasoning. But tell them the most ridiculous BS lie and they will gulp it like a diabetic stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert would drink a bucket of water after eating 10 pounds of cake. Later tell them you lied to them and they will argue with you and deny it was all made up and just continue believing the lie. Tell them something is better and cheaper, they will turn a sour face and always go for the worse and more expensive and make up these fantastic rationalizations how it must be better. It's just an amazing phenomenon, and they are completely unaware of it. Oh yeah, and they are all just music lovers, never label themselves as audiophiles.

It sort of reminds me of Nigerian scam victims. They don't call themselves 'Nigerian scam victims', they call them selves 'lucky'. How can anyone fall for it, I always wonder. But people do, and obsessively sink further and further without giving up on the illusion. Their wallets are heavily fisted by snake oil salesmen and shisters, but I guess it's karma at work. A payback for all their greed and vanity. Makes you wonder if it's really worth disturbing a natural evolutionary process. Maybe just sit and observe the life in the Savannah through a lens and not interfere. But one can't help but throw a rock once in a while.

 

[chebby]

Last I checked B&W are associated with Rotel

Edit you're correct Vladimir, the group owns Classe as well, still, you'd think they'd have an active by now. Or Focal/Naim.

Yes they own Classe but the group has never owned Rotel. There has been a relationship with Rotel for a very long time but no ownership. Rotel is still owned by the same Japanese family that founded it.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You give them scientific research to get great sound and they will degrade and refuse any scientific result or reasoning. But tell them the most ridiculous BS lie and they will gulp it like a diabetic stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert would drink a bucket of water after eating 10 pounds of cake. Later tell them you lied to them and they will argue with you and deny it was all made up and just continue believing the lie. Tell them something is better and cheaper, they will turn a sour face and always go for the worse and more expensive and make up these fantastic rationalizations how it must be better. It's just an amazing phenomenon, and they are completely unaware of it. Oh yeah, and they are all just music lovers, never label themselves as audiophiles.

It sort of reminds me of Nigerian scam victims. They don't call themselves 'Nigerian scam victims', they call them selves 'lucky'. How can anyone fall for it, I always wonder. But people do, and obsessively sink further and further without giving up on the illusion. Their wallets are heavily fisted by snake oil salesmen and shisters, but I guess it's karma at work. A payback for all their greed and vanity. Makes you wonder if it's really worth disturbing a natural evolutionary process. Maybe just sit and observe the life in the Savannah through a lens and not interfere. But one can't help but throw a rock once in a while.

So when did being an 'Audiophile' become something dirty?

When did the pursuit of audio excellence utilising the resources at hand become something sordid?

Achieving high fidelity without the use of science only trial and error is a bad thing now?

The only ones who actually complain are those who try to integrate science into this hobby. Searching for the perfect 'curve'.

Some throw figures, measurements and the like into an argument that is purely down to personal preference.

How you going to tell a man who enjoys what he has, that he achieved through no more than trial and error that he's wrong just because the so called scientific figures are telling YOU it's 'wrong'?

Who's the real 'I'm the victim' here?

Naaaah.....some of you need to step back and rethink things through - step outside your bubbles.

 

[chebby]

You give them scientific research to get great sound and they will degrade and refuse any scientific result or reasoning. But tell them the most ridiculous BS lie and they will gulp it like a diabetic stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert would drink a bucket of water after eating 10 pounds of cake. Later tell them you lied to them and they will argue with you and deny it was all made up and just continue believing the lie. Tell them something is better and cheaper, they will turn a sour face and always go for the worse and more expensive and make up these fantastic rationalizations how it must be better. It's just an amazing phenomenon, and they are completely unaware of it. Oh yeah, and they are all just music lovers, never label themselves as audiophiles.

It sort of reminds me of Nigerian scam victims. They don't call themselves 'Nigerian scam victims', they call them selves 'lucky'. How can anyone fall for it, I always wonder. But people do, and obsessively sink further and further without giving up on the illusion. Their wallets are heavily fisted by snake oil salesmen and shisters, but I guess it's karma at work. A payback for all their greed and vanity. Makes you wonder if it's really worth disturbing a natural evolutionary process. Maybe just sit and observe the life in the Savannah through a lens and not interfere. But one can't help but throw a rock once in a while.

Who is this self-regarding, Nietzschean, 'Übermensch' sitting in judgement on all the rest of mankind living out their pitiful little lives on the plains below his mountain?

 

[Vladimir]

...that doesn't have enough fear, or should I say respect, for the food chain and way of life, will come too carelesly close to the deep grass.

And CHOMP!

It becomes lion lunch.

This post was brought to you by JPlay - Audiophile USB & LAN Cables.

 

[Vladimir]

You give them scientific research to get great sound and they will degrade and refuse any scientific result or reasoning. But tell them the most ridiculous BS lie and they will gulp it like a diabetic stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert would drink a bucket of water after eating 10 pounds of cake. Later tell them you lied to them and they will argue with you and deny it was all made up and just continue believing the lie. Tell them something is better and cheaper, they will turn a sour face and always go for the worse and more expensive and make up these fantastic rationalizations how it must be better. It's just an amazing phenomenon, and they are completely unaware of it. Oh yeah, and they are all just music lovers, never label themselves as audiophiles.

It sort of reminds me of Nigerian scam victims. They don't call themselves 'Nigerian scam victims', they call them selves 'lucky'. How can anyone fall for it, I always wonder. But people do, and obsessively sink further and further without giving up on the illusion. Their wallets are heavily fisted by snake oil salesmen and shisters, but I guess it's karma at work. A payback for all their greed and vanity. Makes you wonder if it's really worth disturbing a natural evolutionary process. Maybe just sit and observe the life in the Savannah through a lens and not interfere. But one can't help but throw a rock once in a while.

Who is this self-regarding, Nietzschean, 'Übermensch' sitting in judgement on all the rest of mankind living out their pitiful little lives on the plains below his mountain?

Yes.

 

[Covenanter]

Vlad does have a point! There are many here who ignore all science, which is perverse given that the equipment they use is all science based.

Chris

 

[ellisdj]

This post was brought to you by JPlay - Audiophile USB & LAN Cables.

 

That post was brought to you by some of the products that turn a pc into a high end source simples, no need for bitterness vlad.

 

[chebby]

You give them scientific research to get great sound and they will degrade and refuse any scientific result or reasoning. But tell them the most ridiculous BS lie and they will gulp it like a diabetic stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert would drink a bucket of water after eating 10 pounds of cake. Later tell them you lied to them and they will argue with you and deny it was all made up and just continue believing the lie. Tell them something is better and cheaper, they will turn a sour face and always go for the worse and more expensive and make up these fantastic rationalizations how it must be better. It's just an amazing phenomenon, and they are completely unaware of it. Oh yeah, and they are all just music lovers, never label themselves as audiophiles.

It sort of reminds me of Nigerian scam victims. They don't call themselves 'Nigerian scam victims', they call them selves 'lucky'. How can anyone fall for it, I always wonder. But people do, and obsessively sink further and further without giving up on the illusion. Their wallets are heavily fisted by snake oil salesmen and shisters, but I guess it's karma at work. A payback for all their greed and vanity. Makes you wonder if it's really worth disturbing a natural evolutionary process. Maybe just sit and observe the life in the Savannah through a lens and not interfere. But one can't help but throw a rock once in a while.

Who is this self-regarding, Nietzschean, 'Übermensch' sitting in judgement on all the rest of mankind living out their pitiful little lives on the plains below his mountain?

Yes.

I thought you meant yourself. (Or one of them anyway.) Just wanted the ambiguity removed.

 

[Vladimir]

Everytime I run out of arguments or energy to repeat myself I turn to facetiousness. Can't help it!

At least it amuses drummerman.

 

[expat_mike]

Several of the posters on this thread have taken strong positions, as to whether human biases influence their judgement regarding hifi performance.

I recommend that everyone reads the book Thinking Fast and Slow, which is briefly summarised here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

In particular read the chapters relating to System 1 and System 2, which describe how the brain forms thoughts. Note that even this summary points out "Kahneman covers a number of experiments which purport to highlight the differences between these two thought processes, and how they arrive at different results even given the same inputs.".

Anyone who claims that they have no biases, is just trying to believe that none of the subconcious biases, utilised by their system 1, exist.

Section 2 of the book also explains how our minds bias the answers we arrive at, according to the way in which the initial question is asked. This can easily also apply to the structure of questions asked within the WHF forum - and maybe explain why some threads get very heated.

Anyway, make a new years resolution to read the book - you may learn some interesting things.

 

[Vladimir]

I thought you meant yourself. (Or one of them anyway.) Just wanted the ambiguity removed.

I'm just parroting scientific research like the one by Dr. Floyd E. Toole and my personal opinions and experiences. I have zero scientific contribution in this subject.

Let this serve as a disclaimer for future soapboxing.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Vlad does have a point!  There are many here who ignore all science, which is perverse given that the equipment they use is all science based.

Chris

No, Chris everyone here using the internet or any Tec accepts and acknowledges the math.....I'm sure, it's not something that needs to be stamped at the start of each post in bold though.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

...that doesn't have enough fear, or should I say respect, for the food chain and way of life, will come too carelesly close to the deep grass.?

And CHOMP!?

It becomes lion lunch.?

?

?

This post was brought to you by JPlay - Audiophile USB & LAN Cables.

 

The problem with your apology Vlad is I'm the lion!

Not in your pic....that's a lioness but.......you get what I mean.

 

[Vladimir]

...that doesn't have enough fear, or should I say respect, for the food chain and way of life, will come too carelesly close to the deep grass.

And CHOMP!

It becomes lion lunch.

This post was brought to you by JPlay - Audiophile USB & LAN Cables.

The problem with your apology Vlad is I'm the lion!

Not in your pic....that's a lioness but.......you get what I mean.

I'm the man with the gun snaping the pic from the comfort of my Defender. No victims here then.

All in good spirit. *drinks*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

For some reason the spell corrector replace analogy with apology and now the forum won't allow me to edit.

 

[manicm]

Vladimir, no-one here is disputing science or blind testing, but when A suggested the looks may have affected my listening, well one needs to recognise one's own pile of foo.

 

[Vladimir]

I'm now making a public confession that my beliefs are colouring my opinions, which results with numbing of my hearing.

 

[Frank Harvey]

BTW, I find it really amusing that that HiFi retailers scored better than reviewers when it came to consistently identifying and rating differences. Yes I know the sample size were too small etc.. especially for the reviewers, but it was funny nonetheless.

Agreed!

 

[Ajani]

So when did being an 'Audiophile' become something dirty?

Have you read or heard what is said about audiophiles by the average person? Audiophiles have been mocked for a long time. The feeling is that audiophiles spend fortunes on products, cables and tweaks that make no sonic difference whatsoever. The reason for the mocking is simple, Audiophilia has become mosty about subjective evaluations with no regard for science or definitive proof. As long as they believe they hear a difference, then that's all that matters.

When did the pursuit of audio excellence utilising the resources at hand become something sordid?
Achieving high fidelity without the use of science only trial and error is a bad thing now?

Would you buy a car built purely by trial and error? A house? Would you travel on a bridge or a plane built with no regard to science?

The only ones who actually complain are those who try to integrate science into this hobby. Searching for the perfect 'curve'.
Some throw figures, measurements and the like into an argument that is purely down to personal preference.

How you going to tell a man who enjoys what he has, that he achieved through no more than trial and error that he's wrong just because the so called scientific figures are telling YOU it's 'wrong'?

Who's the real 'I'm the victim' here?

Naaaah.....some of you need to step back and rethink things through - step outside your bubbles.

What do you mean by "he's wrong"? You can't tell someone that they don't like the sound of their system. It could be so coloured that the measurements show it as defective, but if he likes it then he likes it. That's not the point. Some of the anti-science persons take it all far too personally. Which is why these discussions can't advance.

No one doubts you can assemble a satisfactory sounding system from trial and error. But imagine you've spent years auditioning different products, cables, tweaks etc etc at dealers, HiFi shows and in your own listening room. You've also spent quite a sum of money buying and selling components to finally craft your ideal setup, then one of those science guys you ignore, shows you that they could have given you the same sound for far less money and without all that effort on your part, would you still feel as satisfied? The aim of the science is to understand sound reproduction, to determine why you like what you like. Eventually we'll be able to customise sounds to our exact liking, without years of trial and error and spending a small fortune. The possibilities are endless.

The question I would ask, if you want to step outside of your bubble, is when did science become a bad thing? Why should it be offensive to anyone?

 

[Covenanter]

Vladimir, no-one here is disputing science or blind testing, but when A suggested the looks may have affected my listening, well one needs to recognise one's own pile of foo.

Everybody's perceptions are influenced by other factors. Nobody is immune from it.

Chris

 

[Ajani]

Vladimir, no-one here is disputing science or blind testing, but when A suggested the looks may have affected my listening, well one needs to recognise one's own pile of foo.

So how do you know that you have no biases? The experts are Harman where convinced they had no biases until simple DBT showed them otherwise. Science tells us we all have some level of bias, so why do you think you are immune to it?

More importanly, why are you are so completely offended at just the suggestion that you MIGHT have biases?

 

[manicm]

Vladimir, no-one here is disputing science or blind testing, but when A suggested the looks may have affected my listening, well one needs to recognise one's own pile of foo.

So how do you know that you have no biases? The experts are Harman where convinced they had no biases until simple DBT showed them otherwise. Science tells us we all have some level of bias, so why do you think you are immune to it?

?

More importanly, why are you are so completely offended at just the suggestion that you MIGHT have biases??

?

 

When I asked you what biases I could have had you included looks, which is ludicrous to say the least. You're being extremely dogmatic Ajani. I explained my environment and circumstances all those years ago. Why would I spend painful amounts of time and money to find satisfaction because I had some fatal biases? Back then many many reviews painted a picture of dvd players not really being good at cd replay anyway. And for your information I stuck with a more expensive Pioneer dvd deck which I was eventually happy with. I had the NAD simultaneously before selling it. So that removes any dvd vs cdp bias on my part. So what other bias might I have had? Oh I forget, the LOOKS. Just damn well admit it - in my case you're shooting blanks, and one of your feet.

A hallmark of zealotry is never admitting that you could be wrong or the other party could be right in particular circumstances.

 

[Vladimir]

What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil”- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Ajani]

Vladimir, no-one here is disputing science or blind testing, but when A suggested the looks may have affected my listening, well one needs to recognise one's own pile of foo.

So how do you know that you have no biases? The experts are Harman where convinced they had no biases until simple DBT showed them otherwise. Science tells us we all have some level of bias, so why do you think you are immune to it?

More importanly, why are you are so completely offended at just the suggestion that you MIGHT have biases?

When I asked you what biases I could have had you included looks, which is ludicrous to say the least. You're being extremely dogmatic Ajani. I explained my environment and circumstances all those years ago. Why would I spend painful amounts of time and money to find satisfaction because I had some fatal biases? Back then many many reviews painted a picture of dvd players not really being good at cd replay anyway. And for your information I stuck with a more expensive Pioneer dvd deck which I was eventually happy with. I had the NAD simultaneously before selling it. So that removes any dvd vs cdp bias on my part. So what other bias might I have had? Oh I forget, the LOOKS. Just damn well admit it - in my case you're shooting blanks, and one of your feet.

A hallmark of zealotry is never admitting that you could be wrong or the other party could be right in particular circumstances.

Do you not see the irony that your zealotry argument only applies to you? You refuse to even consider that you could have had any kind of bias. Unlike you, I said very early on that there could be real differences in what you heard, that I never measured your CDP/DVD etc... That I have no idea whether you had biases etc... So there has never been zealotry on my part.

But you insist, that you have no bias and continue to act offended at the mere suggestion that bias is a posibility. How do you not see that irony?

Until you attempt to test whether you could have any bias, then what you are doing is zealotry. You can't just say "I have no biases" and expect that to be taken as a fact.

Anyway, you can continue to ignore my points and insist on being offended pointlessly. I've said all I have to say.