Help with Focal Bathys and Astell and Kern

[raoulthemerciless]

Hi all

I have Focal Bathys headphones and an Astell and Kern SR25MkII DAP. I love them both. And I love to use them wirelessly together.

However, 2 things bother me and I wonder if anyone has any ideas.

First, in London especially and especially in busy areas such as stations I get massive wireless disruption to the point I cannot listen to anything.

Second, I understand the Bathys DAC cannot cope with a DAP that also has a DAC meaning I cannot try the DAC mode on the Bathys. Perhaps I do not need to as the A+K DAC is already doing that quality work for me, but I have heard such good things about the Bathys DAC mode that I want to experience it with my A+K player.

If I can use the two devices wired, I am wondering if I can solve both issues above ... but in order to wire them together and use Bathys DAC mode, I need to turn off the DAC on the SR25 and I cannot see any way to do that? Or is there a wiring approach between the two devices which is going to work for me?

At present I am wondering if I need a different DAP to use with the Bathys DAC mode?

All help gratefully received!

Thanks

Paul

 

[Al ears]

Hi all

I have Focal Bathys headphones and an Astell and Kern SR25MkII DAP. I love them both. And I love to use them wirelessly together.

However, 2 things bother me and I wonder if anyone has any ideas.

First, in London especially and especially in busy areas such as stations I get massive wireless disruption to the point I cannot listen to anything.

Second, I understand the Bathys DAC cannot cope with a DAP that also has a DAC meaning I cannot try the DAC mode on the Bathys. Perhaps I do not need to as the A+K DAC is already doing that quality work for me, but I have heard such good things about the Bathys DAC mode that I want to experience it with my A+K player.

If I can use the two devices wired, I am wondering if I can solve both issues above ... but in order to wire them together and use Bathys DAC mode, I need to turn off the DAC on the SR25 and I cannot see any way to do that? Or is there a wiring approach between the two devices which is going to work for me?

At present I am wondering if I need a different DAP to use with the Bathys DAC mode?

All help gratefully received!

Thanks

Paul

I would be very doubtful you could find a dap that would do that as they are all designed to be a music player with inbuilt DAC that convert to analogue. Therefore they are best suited to wired headphones.
No point in buying a decent DAP if you are going to use an inferior method of getting said music to a pair of headphones.
Ditch one or the other.

 

[Vincent Kars]

If you connect over Bluetooth, the media player sends the audio file to the Bluetooth radio. It will be encoded using the protocol negotiated between sender and sink. At the receiver (the headphone in your case), de audio will be decoded by the Bluetooth receiver and send to the DAC of the headphone. Obvious the DAC of the DAP is not involved at all.

If you connect using a 3.5 mm, this is an analog connection. The DAC of the DAP does the conversion to analog,
However, the headphone must be on. Likely it still does some DSP. If that is the case, the analog signal is converted to digital, DSP applied and then converted to analog by the DAC of the headphone. As the Bathys has ANC, it indeed has a ADC on board.

If you connect using USB-C, now you have a digital connection with the source using a lossless protocol. Again as the connection is digital, the DAC of the source is not used. The conversion is done by the DAC of the headphone.

Basically you are listening to the DAC of the Bathys all of the time regardless the type of connection.
Only if you make a analog connection, the DAC of the DAP is involved as well.

 

[raoulthemerciless]

I would be very doubtful you could find a dap that would do that as they are all designed to be a music player with inbuilt DAC that convert to analogue. Therefore they are best suited to wired headphones.
No point in buying a decent DAP if you are going to use an inferior method of getting said music to a pair of headphones.
Ditch one or the other.

thanks for this - which is what I had concluded myself was likely to be the answer. So I am looking for a decent pair of wired headphones, that do not have their own DAC - any suggestions?

 

[Al ears]

If you connect over Bluetooth, the media player sends the audio file to the Bluetooth radio. It will be encoded using the protocol negotiated between sender and sink. At the receiver (the headphone in your case), de audio will be decoded by the Bluetooth receiver and send to the DAC of the headphone. Obvious the DAC of the DAP is not involved at all.

If you connect using a 3.5 mm, this is an analog connection. The DAC of the DAP does the conversion to analog,
However, the headphone must be on. Likely it still does some DSP. If that is the case, the analog signal is converted to digital, DSP applied and then converted to analog by the DAC of the headphone. As the Bathys has ANC, it indeed has a ADC on board.

If you connect using USB-C, now you have a digital connection with the source using a lossless protocol. Again as the connection is digital, the DAC of the source is not used. The conversion is done by the DAC of the headphone.

Basically you are listening to the DAC of the Bathys all of the time regardless the type of connection.
Only if you make a analog connection, the DAC of the DAP is involved as well.

Agreed.
The DAC in the DAP cannot be turned off, it comes down to how you take an output from that device.
Using Bluetooth, if you can actually do that, might be the only way to ensure the headphone dac is utilised.

 

[raoulthemerciless]

If you connect over Bluetooth, the media player sends the audio file to the Bluetooth radio. It will be encoded using the protocol negotiated between sender and sink. At the receiver (the headphone in your case), de audio will be decoded by the Bluetooth receiver and send to the DAC of the headphone. Obvious the DAC of the DAP is not involved at all.

If you connect using a 3.5 mm, this is an analog connection. The DAC of the DAP does the conversion to analog,
However, the headphone must be on. Likely it still does some DSP. If that is the case, the analog signal is converted to digital, DSP applied and then converted to analog by the DAC of the headphone. As the Bathys has ANC, it indeed has a ADC on board.

If you connect using USB-C, now you have a digital connection with the source using a lossless protocol. Again as the connection is digital, the DAC of the source is not used. The conversion is done by the DAC of the headphone.

Basically you are listening to the DAC of the Bathys all of the time regardless the type of connection.
Only if you make a analog connection, the DAC of the DAP is involved as well.

OK thanks, but I am a little confused by some of this.

If I am using Bluetooth, are you saying I am getting the benefit of the Bathys DAC anyway? I am losing out on whatever quality the A+K DAC provides but am getting the Bathys one instead so if they are of similar quality no problem?

Regarding wired options, when I have tried this before and switched on DAC mode on the Bathys, the DAP volume has gone up to full and cannot be adjusted making it unworkable.

I am wondering if my best bet is a wired connection but not using the Bathys DAC mode, so I get the DAC from the DAP instead ... but your comments imply the 2 DACs are always working, with the Bathys "overruling" the DAP in some circumstances?

I suppose at the end of the day what I want to know is what is the best way to connect the DAP and the Bathys with a wire - USB C, or a more traditional 3.5 jack, or one of the other size jacks on the A+K perhaps?

 

[raoulthemerciless]

Agreed.
The DAC in the DAP cannot be turned off, it comes down to how you take an output from that device.
Using Bluetooth, if you can actually do that, might be the only way to ensure the headphone dac is utilised.

so no need to switch on DAC mode on the Bathys and use a wire? Bluetooth (which I am currently using) will use the DAC anyway as it has no choice? (and the reason the wireless sound quality on these headphones is so good presumably).

Regarding a wired approach, should I go for that, is there any wire connection I might try that could damage either product?

 

[Al ears]

so no need to switch on DAC mode on the Bathys and use a wire? Bluetooth (which I am currently using) will use the DAC anyway as it has no choice? (and the reason the wireless sound quality on these headphones is so good presumably).

Regarding a wired approach, should I go for that, is there any wire connection I might try that could damage either product?

Correct for your first point however Bluetooth will only carry a certain amount of data I believe. It really depends on what sort of files you are sending from your DAP.
What makes you think a wired connection could damage anything?

 

[Vincent Kars]

If I am using Bluetooth, are you saying I am getting the benefit of the Bathys DAC anyway? I am losing out on whatever quality the A+K DAC provides but am getting the Bathys one instead so if they are of similar quality no problem?

A DAC is a Digital to Analog converter.
Digital audio > DAC > amp > speakers.
This is what your DAP does and obvious, you must use its analog out.

If you use Bluetooth (or any other digital protocol) it is
Digital Audio > Bluetooth sender > Bluetooth receiver > DAC >amp > speakers.
Obvious the DAC of the DAP is not involved, the headphone must have a DAC+amp.

Regarding wired options, when I have tried this before and switched on DAC mode on the Bathys, the DAP volume has gone up to full and cannot be adjusted making it unworkable.

Bit unclear what you mean with wired mode.
According to https://focal.pimster.app/en/bathys/article/user-manual
DAC mode should only be used when using USB audio.
Using a analog (3.5 mm) connection, Bathys should be set to on.
If this is about USB, it is not uncommon to set the source to 100% and use the volume control on the headphone

I am wondering if my best bet is a wired connection but not using the Bathys DAC mode, so I get the DAC from the DAP instead ... but your comments imply the 2 DACs are always working, with the Bathys "overruling" the DAP in some circumstances?

What you can try is using a 3.5 analog connection (so the DAC of the DAP is used).
Switch the headphone of. You probably won't hear anything. This indicates that very likely the DAC of the Bathys is always involved.
Another simple test using the analog connection and with the Bathys set to ON (yeah, the manual says so) and toggle the ANC between ANC and transparency mode. If this works obvious DSP is used hence the DAC of the Bathys is active as well. In this scenario the DAP converts the audio to analog, the Bathys convert it back to digital and using convolution, mixes audio and ANC.
If this is true, you can't use the Bathys in passive mode.

Your best bet wired is the USB-C connection. USB audio is lossless.
Another interesting experiment might be to load some audio on your mobile.
Connect the Bathys over USB-C. You won't hear any differences between using your mobile or the A&K as both simply function as a transport sending the same data to the Bathys.

 

[raoulthemerciless]

A DAC is a Digital to Analog converter.
Digital audio > DAC > amp > speakers.
This is what your DAP does and obvious, you must use its analog out.

If you use Bluetooth (or any other digital protocol) it is
Digital Audio > Bluetooth sender > Bluetooth receiver > DAC >amp > speakers.
Obvious the DAC of the DAP is not involved, the headphone must have a DAC+amp.


Bit unclear what you mean with wired mode.
According to https://focal.pimster.app/en/bathys/article/user-manual
DAC mode should only be used when using USB audio.
Using a analog (3.5 mm) connection, Bathys should be set to on.
If this is about USB, it is not uncommon to set the source to 100% and use the volume control on the headphone


What you can try is using a 3.5 analog connection (so the DAC of the DAP is used).
Switch the headphone of. You probably won't hear anything. This indicates that very likely the DAC of the Bathys is always involved.
Another simple test using the analog connection and with the Bathys set to ON (yeah, the manual says so) and toggle the ANC between ANC and transparency mode. If this works obvious DSP is used hence the DAC of the Bathys is active as well. In this scenario the DAP converts the audio to analog, the Bathys convert it back to digital and using convolution, mixes audio and ANC.
If this is true, you can't use the Bathys in passive mode.

Your best bet wired is the USB-C connection. USB audio is lossless.
Another interesting experiment might be to load some audio on your mobile.
Connect the Bathys over USB-C. You won't hear any differences between using your mobile or the A&K as both simply function as a transport sending the same data to the Bathys.

thanks for this, it is very useful and educating me which is no bad thing.

I am trying the usb and Bathys DAC route, but as noted elsewhere in this thread my DAP goes to full 150 volume and cannot be changed. Problem then is the headphone volume refuses to change either, so I am stuck with unusably high volume. It seems usb and Bathys DAC is not an option as the 2 devices refuse to cooperate.

A simple 3.5mm wire works and the sound is pretty decent (it is a premium cable so I am putting in the effort) but the wireless quality is winning me over.

So I am now going to try my 2TB sound card put into a far simpler DAP or my laptop (am guessing a phone won't take it but I know diddly squat about phones so...), wire up the usb and turn on the Bathys DAC, and see what transpires.

(or just avoid London, so I can use the Bluetooth option)

 

[Vincent Kars]

I have all of my audio on a 1 TB SD on my Samsung A54. Simply insert a 2TB and check if the OS recognize it and report the right capacity.
You might decide to insert the SD in your laptop and copy the audio to it. Much faster than using MTP to the phone (assuming Android).
Media players might struggle too. Both with scanning 2 TB and it might take a long time.
Foobar Mobile failed me: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Android/MediaPlayers/Foobar.htm

Onkyo HF player did a better job: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Android/MediaPlayers/OnkyoHF.htm