Help! My systems too bright... Advice pls!

[admin_exported]

Hello!

I have recently upgraded my fronts and center speakers to PMC FB1's (originals not the +) and PMC DB1+C. The FB1's have a great open sound which i really like, but if you crank the volume up a bit the treble becomes a bit to bright (this doesnt really bother me with cinema but it does with music), this i know was a complaint of the FB1 speakers and there is the option to get them upgraded by PMC to the + version for around £600 which is one option!

The amp i have is a surround amp which won 5 stars a couple of years back in what hifi and was particually applauded for its musical ability it is the STR-DA2400ES into which i am running a Sonos system via an optical cable - FYI im testing the system with FLACS from a Synology NAS. I currently have some QED anniversary silver cable connecting the FB1's - but i have just bought some Russ Andrews 4TC cable as i hear copper wires give a more mellow sound.

So what are peoples advice as to how to balance out my system? As i see it i have a few options:

1) Upgrade FB1's to the FB1+ - My worry here is that it is really the amp that is too bright

2) Change the Amp - worry here is that most good surround amps would sound the same

3) Upgrade the cabling - does it really make THAT much difference?

4) Buy a power amp to handle the front left and right channels and use my current Sony as the pre amp

I'm leaning towards 4 - I used to have a Quad power amp that had a very mellow sound - unfortunatly back then i had dull speakers too! I've also heard that Naim kit goes very well with PMC speakers so perhaps a Naim power amp - With all of these i would probably be looking to ebay with around a £300 budget.

Any advice? ray:

Cheers Rob.

 

[BenLaw]

No to cables. Get some room treatment, broad band absorption ought to tame the top end.

 

[cheeseboy]

so you bought new speakers and now it's too bright?

Sorry to sound dumb, but maybe those aren't the speakers you're looking for?

does it make any difference if you roll some of the treble off on the amp?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Cheesboy,

The speakers aren't the problem... i have had a good listen to them as my friends Dad had them set up in his studio... THE problem is that he had them running on Naim kit not a surround reciever. And yes fiddling with the tone controls does help - but i dont really want to be having to eq every time i up the volume, hense why im thinking that getting a 2 channel hifi power amp may be the way to go!

R.

 

[Anonymous]

Ben... The missis isnt happy with the speakers - if i suggest putting foam on the wall i think i'll be out on the street

 

[BenLaw]

Ben... The missis isnt happy with the speakers - if i suggest putting foam on the wall i think i'll be out on the street

Get some with a nice art or photo print, stick them on the walls and say you're showing an interest in home furnishing, don't even mention that they have acoustic absorption materials inside.

Fwiw I don't think changes as minor as source, amps or cable will work. Your three choices are change of speakers, change of room acoustics or EQ.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Look at my links. Try some traps. Let OH appreciate improvements. Wake up from dream if still asleep.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Look at my links. Try some traps. Let OH appreciate improvements. Wake up from dream if still asleep.

 

[Chewy]

You have been given the best advice above already by Ben and Rob. If the speakers don't sound harsh at higher volumes in someone elses room, the problem is your room, and that won't necessarily change by changing the electronics or speakers.

Can you describe your room? If you have nice wooden floors, leather sofa's, little in the way of soft furnishings, these will all add to reflection of high frequencies that is more than likely the cause of the high frequency harshness you are experiencing.

 

[Anonymous]

Room is long about 30ft but where i have stereo is about 10ft wide, carpeted floor, sofa directly infront around 2 meteres from fronts / screen - were in a loft apartment so there are a few slanted celings

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Rob

Brightness can be caused by:

- Wrong synergy between components
- Poor source
- Weakness in the amp
- Room acoustics
- Speaker positioning
- Speaker Cables (IMO)

In your case, I would try and borrow some copper cables from your dealer (if possible) - if the problem isn't too bad, this might be enough. If this isn't possible, Van Damme UP LC-OFC cable isn't expensive and might be worth a shot.

If your room is echoey, try to dampen it a bit with rugs etc.; and play about with the toe-in of the speakers.

The above points may prove to be tinkering around the the edges, and I suspect the problem is the PMCs are showing up the amp's ability in 2 channel. As you say, you can get a power amp, but that still means using the pre-amp in the Sony, which will be the weak spot. I would be inclined to get an integrated amp with HT bi-pass.
FWIW. I feel one should never underestimate the effect a pre-amp can have on a system.

I can't comment on the effect the upgrade will have on the speakers...but if a dealer has some, I'm sure they would let you compare.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Cno

I have some kimber 4tc's in the post so will see how the copper sounds.

Yep i totally agree that the PMC's are displaying the amp for what it is, ie not pure hifi - interesting point about the pre amp. Intreagued about this HT bi-pass... will look into how this works.

My room isn't echoey, its just at slightly higher volumes the treble really gets sharp, and i know having heard these speakers with a Naim set up that they shouldnt sound quite like they do... Googling HT bi-pass now!

Tks.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno

I have some kimber 4tc's in the post so will see how the copper sounds.

Yep i totally agree that the PMC's are displaying the amp for what it is, ie not pure hifi - interesting point about the pre amp. Intreagued about this HT bi-pass... will look into how this works.

My room isn't echoey, its just at slightly higher volumes the treble really gets sharp, and i know having heard these speakers with a Naim set up that they shouldnt sound quite like they do... Googling HT bi-pass now!

Tks.

HT Bi-pass allows the pre in the 2 channel amp to be bi-passed for AV use, so you are not working with two volume controls ie. it's simply acting as a power amp.

For two channel use, it works as intended eg. Musical Fidelity sound great and have this feature on their M3 and M6 series (as do many other brands, like Leema and Arcam).

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Cno,

Sorry for being dumb... but how is this HT Bypass different from using a power amp... It still looks as tho the signal has to pass through the HT amp and that the HT Bypass mearly makes an integrated amp act like a power amp.

Was looking at this diagram: http://www.cleanandquiet.com/upload/store/Home%20Theater%20Bypass.JPG

Cheers. Rob.

 

[CnoEvil]

FOR AV

The Front L & R pre-outs of the AV amp go into the HT connection of the integrated amp. This is now using your integrated as a power amp, being controlled by the Pre in the AV amp, to provide the front two channels.

FOR 2 CHANNEL

Your 2 channel sources are plugged directly into the Stereo amp in the normal way......the AV amp can be left switched off.

THE DIFFERENCE

There is no difference for AV; but for 2 Channel, you are now using the Pre in the Stereo amp (where it's really needed), thus cutting out the weak link of having to use the AV amp as the Pre (for stereo).

 

[plastic penguin]

Hello!

I have recently upgraded my fronts and center speakers to PMC FB1's (originals not the +) and PMC DB1+C. The FB1's have a great open sound which i really like, but if you crank the volume up a bit the treble becomes a bit to bright (this doesnt really bother me with cinema but it does with music), this i know was a complaint of the FB1 speakers and there is the option to get them upgraded by PMC to the + version for around £600 which is one option!

The amp i have is a surround amp which won 5 stars a couple of years back in what hifi and was particually applauded for its musical ability it is the STR-DA2400ES into which i am running a Sonos system via an optical cable - FYI im testing the system with FLACS from a Synology NAS. I currently have some QED anniversary silver cable connecting the FB1's - but i have just bought some Russ Andrews 4TC cable as i hear copper wires give a more mellow sound.

So what are peoples advice as to how to balance out my system? As i see it i have a few options:

1) Upgrade FB1's to the FB1+ - My worry here is that it is really the amp that is too bright

2) Change the Amp - worry here is that most good surround amps would sound the same

3) Upgrade the cabling - does it really make THAT much difference?

4) Buy a power amp to handle the front left and right channels and use my current Sony as the pre amp

I'm leaning towards 4 - I used to have a Quad power amp that had a very mellow sound - unfortunatly back then i had dull speakers too! I've also heard that Naim kit goes very well with PMC speakers so perhaps a Naim power amp - With all of these i would probably be looking to ebay with around a £300 budget.

Any advice? ray:

Cheers Rob.

Please forgive me for asking, but why choose front speakers that initally retailed at just under £2k? The reason for asking is because the Bro-in-law has this amp, and he only uses some cheapo Tannoy sats + sub to great effect with wooden floorboards.

I honestly think your amp is a poor match with FB1s. Unless the amp controls speakers sufficiently, it can sound a little shrill IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

Plastic Penguin: Simple answer: I want better performance musically.

My surround sound was great - but after buying a Sonus Play 5 i realised that music really didnt sound even as good as the Play 5 through my B&W MT25 speaker package... I know these speakers can sound very good and i really dont mind if this purchase forces upgrades, but like i say i like the surround sound is good so if i can get the best of both worlds why the hell shouldn't I?

 

[Anonymous]

FOR AV

The Front L & R pre-outs of the AV amp go into the HT connection of the integrated amp. This is now using your integrated as a power amp, being controlled by the Pre in the AV amp, to provide the front two channels.

FOR 2 CHANNEL

Your 2 channel sources are plugged directly into the Stereo amp in the normal way......the AV amp can be left switched off.

THE DIFFERENCE

There is no difference for AV; but for 2 Channel, you are now using the Pre in the Stereo amp (where it's really needed), thus cutting out the weak link of having to use the AV amp as the Pre (for stereo).

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Of course thank you!

 

[CnoEvil]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Of course thank you!

You're very welcome.

FWIW. I think you need to spend £2k+ on an amp, to start getting the most from these speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

2k is probably pushing my budget a bit, any thoughts for around the 1k mark?

 

[CnoEvil]

2k is probably pushing my budget a bit, any thoughts for around the 1k mark?

Musical Fidelity M3i

Harman Hardon HK990

Sugden Mystro (ex-dem) - doesn't have HT Bi-Pass, but sounds great.

Leema Pulse

 

[plastic penguin]

Could also look at Creek Evo2, Roksan Kandy K2, Arcam A38...

 

[robfol]

Hi Bobster

You would pretty certainly find that an Arcam A39 for Stereo or Arcam AVR400 for AV would solve your problems. Both are intensely musical and and have a clean, smooth sound, designed for long-term listening.

Both sound hugely better than any Far Eastern AV receiver (-:

Some people think that Arcam are dull, until they realise that music and life aren't bright and that a natural sound is both more 'real' and far less fatiguing

Try to get a home demo or loan before you buy anything.

Cheers Robert

[Unpublished - House Rules]

 

[Anonymous]

Had a play today:

Swapped out QED silver anniversary cable for Kimber 4TC - made a marginal difference... very marginal.

BUT - swapped out a QED optical cable for a QED phono cable to connect the Sonus to the AV amp and what a difference! Sound is much softer in the high ends much less bright... Even tried it with some seriously snare heavy music and the balance is much much better!

A lot happier now :cheers: , but thanks for the advice and i think that i will at some point at the future audition a dedicated 2 channel amp with HT Bypass to get the most out of the PMC's!

 

[CnoEvil]

BUT - swapped out a QED optical cable for a QED phono cable to connect the Sonus to the AV amp and what a difference! Sound is much softer in the high ends much less bright... Even tried it with some seriously snare heavy music and the balance is much much better!

That means you prefer the presentation of the Dac in the Sonos to that of your Sony.

IMO Your speakers are not only crying out for a better amp, but also a better digital source........there's a whole new world of quality hi-fidelity just waiting for you to open the door and discover it!

Cno