Help Me Choose a TT Set-Up

[geekonstereo]

Hello all,

I am looking to get a turntable to match this set up:

Monitor Audio Silver 8 tower speakers
Rogue Audio Sphinx integrated amp (which includes what I am told is a very good phono stage that can handle cartridges with output of 2.5mV or higher)
I have the above two components already. I am also willing to buy the Musical Fidelity V90-LPS phono stage if I need to go for a low-output moving-coil cartridge

Turntables I am considering:
Clearaudio Concept with Verify tonearm
Funk Firm Little Super Deck with F5 tonearm
Well Tempered Simplex with co.'s tonearm (not sure what it's called)
VPI Traveler with 10" tonearm
VPI Scout with 9" JMW tonenarm
SOTA Comet with S303 tonearm

I have only auditioned the Concept and the Little Super Deck at the moment, but hope to hear the others in the next couple of days. However, it is impossible for me to audition all of them side by side with the same speakers, amp, cartridge etc.
I did hear the Concept and LSD side by side but with different cartridges on each.
I loved the Concept's build quality -- it looks so good for its price. I heard it with the stock Clearaudio MM cartridge and while the music output was good, it wasn't great. Just seemed a bit too forward, bright and harsh to my ears (but only a bit)
The Little Super Deck is costlier, and I heard that with the Ortofon Quintet Bronze. The sound quality was noticeably better -- warmer, slightly laid back and overall smoother.
I am not sure if the difference was because of the cartridge more than the turntable itself. I reckon the Concept might sound just as good or even better with the same Ortofon Quintet Bronze. I don't know.
But in any case, the Little Super Deck's fit and finish weren't a patch on the Concept. Not terrible by any means, but a bit crude compared to the posh and smooth curves and lines of the Concept. The LSD just doesn't look like it will last a lifetime if so one desires, or maybe I am being shallow.

Here are my cartridge choices (which is proving to be very tough)
Clearaudio Maestro Wood - about S$1100-1400
Dynavector 10x5 (high output MC) - about S$500-600
Benz Micro Ace - about S$1200-1400
Van Den Hul DDT II Special - about S$1500-S$1800 (this is a low-output MC so I will have to buy the Musical Fidelity phono stage mentioned above)
Nagaoka MP-500
Nagaoka MP-300 (not sure of price but should be less than S$1000 I guess)
And finally (this one is going to raise some eyebrows because most may think it's overkill)...
Koetsu Rosewood Standard - about $1800-$2000 (again, I will have to get the phono stage for it). I am considering this only because I am getting a very good deal on it, and unlike in the U.S. where the price is substantially higher, there is no mark up in Asia for this brand

The problem for me is that I can't really listen to any of these cartridges because the opportunity for an audition doesn't exist where I stay. So I need your help in making a choice.

So please help.

Any suggestions/recommendations on the turntables mentioned above? Any ideas on which table might go best with which cartridge? For example, is pairing a competent table like the Concept with an entry-level Koetsu cartridge really a terrible idea?

I listen mostly to classic rock, alt-rock, blues and some pop. I seem to prefer a warmer sound with a liquid midrange rather than a bright and forward sound. I don't listen to music very loud and don't need thumping bass.

Keep in mind that my budget can't really beyond the costliest items listed above.

Any other recommendations?

Thank you.

 

[Al ears]

Hello all,

I am looking to get a turntable to match this set up:

Monitor Audio Silver 8 tower speakersRogue Audio Sphinx integrated amp (which includes what I am told is a very good phono stage that can handle cartridges with output of 2.5mV or higher)I have the above two components already. I am also willing to buy the Musical Fidelity V90-LPS phono stage if I need to go for a low-output moving-coil cartridge

Turntables I am considering:Clearaudio Concept with Verify tonearmFunk Firm Little Super Deck with F5 tonearmWell Tempered Simplex with co.'s tonearm (not sure what it's called)VPI Traveler with 10" tonearmVPI Scout with 9" JMW tonenarmSOTA Comet with S303 tonearm

I have only auditioned the Concept and the Little Super Deck at the moment, but hope to hear the others in the next couple of days. However, it is impossible for me to audition all of them side by side with the same speakers, amp, cartridge etc.I did hear the Concept and LSD side by side but with different cartridges on each.I loved the Concept's build quality -- it looks so good for its price. I heard it with the stock Clearaudio MM cartridge and while the music output was good, it wasn't great. Just seemed a bit too forward, bright and harsh to my ears (but only a bit)The Little Super Deck is costlier, and I heard that with the Ortofon Quintet Bronze. The sound quality was noticeably better -- warmer, slightly laid back and overall smoother.I am not sure if the difference was because of the cartridge more than the turntable itself. I reckon the Concept might sound just as good or even better with the same Ortofon Quintet Bronze. I don't know.But in any case, the Little Super Deck's fit and finish weren't a patch on the Concept. Not terrible by any means, but a bit crude compared to the posh and smooth curves and lines of the Concept. The LSD just doesn't look like it will last a lifetime if so one desires, or maybe I am being shallow.

Here are my cartridge choices (which is proving to be very tough)Clearaudio Maestro Wood - about S$1100-1400Dynavector 10x5 (high output MC) - about S$500-600Benz Micro Ace - about S$1200-1400Van Den Hul DDT II Special - about S$1500-S$1800 (this is a low-output MC so I will have to buy the Musical Fidelity phono stage mentioned above)Nagaoka MP-500Nagaoka MP-300 (not sure of price but should be less than S$1000 I guess)And finally (this one is going to raise some eyebrows because most may think it's overkill)...Koetsu Rosewood Standard - about $1800-$2000 (again, I will have to get the phono stage for it). I am considering this only because I am getting a very good deal on it, and unlike in the U.S. where the price is substantially higher, there is no mark up in Asia for this brand

The problem for me is that I can't really listen to any of these cartridges because the opportunity for an audition doesn't exist where I stay. So I need your help in making a choice.

So please help.

Any suggestions/recommendations on the turntables mentioned above? Any ideas on which table might go best with which cartridge? For example, is pairing a competent table like the Concept with an entry-level Koetsu cartridge really a terrible idea?

I listen mostly to classic rock, alt-rock, blues and some pop. I seem to prefer a warmer sound with a liquid midrange rather than a bright and forward sound. I don't listen to music very loud and don't need thumping bass.

Keep in mind that my budget can't really beyond the costliest items listed above.

Any other recommendations?

Thank you.

Do I take it you live in the States?

Very few in the UK will have heard the VPI or Sota turntables. I have only heard the Scout and the Clearaudio.

Personally I would not consider putting on a cartridge that costs more than or as much as the turntable itself (regards the Koetsu) but why not if you can afford it.

I think if it were my money I'd be looking towards the VPI scout. The Sota looks okay but has a cheap tonearm (Rega RB300) and so would not go down this route. If you did this I would save money on the phono preamp and fit this deck with the Benz Micro Ace or the Clearaudio cartridge.

 

[jerry klinger]

I've been listening to some new t/ts recently.

Roksan Radius/ortofon - lively , loud, quick and detailed but a little brash when things got rough. Personally I found the looks a bit blingy. And the Nima a bit awkward.

Rega RP6 - also detailed, but outclassed by several t/ts above £1k.

Project 2xperience sb - great value, musical and detailed, slightly let down by less expensive cart and screw-down clamp

Project Xtension 9 - this includes a Quintet Black and sounds extremely detailed in a controlled, zen-like manner. I found this extremely easy to relax into. Easy to control, though the 3 position switch has a mind of its own.Fantastic value at 2200 for the package. Sounds better with puck on.

Clearaudio concept mm - similar to RP6, lovely deck but outclassed. Not heatd the newer Wood MC version.

The Project phono box mc input was also superb, punches above its weight.

 

[geekonstereo]

Thank you for the response. No I do not live in the U.S. I am based in Asia.
Well, I auditioned multiple set-ups today, and I think I've found at least the turntable I want.
Here are the details of the audition:

Since one of you mentioned the Well Tempered Simplex was the best of the lot, let's start with that.
I had high expectations from this table, so maybe that had something to do with how disappointed I was with it. But I think it may well have been the best if the dealer knew anything at all about turntables and how to set them up.
It was set up with Spendor tower speakers and a separate Well Tempered power supply along with high-end phono amp and speaker amplifiers. And a Goldring cartridge.
But in spite of all this, I am pretty sure the turntable settings were definitely wrong because the music was sorta muffled (though the table was dead quiet) -- bass was smeary and there was no definition or detail.
There was only person at the dealership, who clearly didn't know what she was talking about. She told me the cartridge was a Dynavector. It wasn't. And get this, she didn't know how to cue to a specific track on a record. I had to tell her how to do this, even though I have never played a record previously in my life. It seemed like she was the person IN CHARGE of the shop, so it wasn't some minion trying to manage the store while the boss was away.
There is only a single dealer listed on Well Tempered's website for where I live, so I can't go elsewhere to check.
If the set up was right, then I have to say the table is not worth the money.
Additionally, while the table itself looked solid and the golf and squash balls add some quirk to it, I wasn't entirely confident about the really really think belt (which is knotted!) and the threads holding the (thin) tone arm up.
Also, the dealer said they would charge an additional $150 to set up the table. Considering the likely shoddy set up at the shop, you can imagine why I thought this was a joke.
So I struck the Well Tempered off the list.

Next, SOTA Comet.
I couldn't actually audition this particular table, because the dealer said it wasn't possible. But I saw it on display. Looks quite impressive. Really massive plinth, and the platter seems pretty solid too. It comes bundled with a Rega 303 arm, which looked sorta tiny on the big table.
The dealer did let me audition the SOTA Nova though, and he said the sound would be 'very similar' to the Comet.
He had a really elaborate set up with Dynaudio speakers and a HUGE mono block power amp and stuff. He was using a Kozma cartridge.
The sound was impressive. Full, weighty and detailed. But the arm wasn't a standard 303. I think it was an SME arm.
And I just couldn't consider a table that I can't audition. Besides I thought I could do better than the 303 for the money I was willing to spend.
So SOTA went out.

Roksan Radius 5.2 With Nima tonearm and Roksan MM cart
Amp was Roksan K3 and speakers were B&W bookshelves
Good music. Punchy is the word that comes to mind. Crystal clear. But I couldn't tolerate its looks. Very blingy, for lack of a better word, as the previous poster said. I am not taking that home to the wife.

Clearaudio Concept With Verify Tonearm
Speakers were a pair of Manger bookshelf units.
As I mentioned previously, I loved the Concept's build quality -- it looks so good for its price. I heard it with the stock Clearaudio MM cartridge and while the music output was good, it wasn't great. Just seemed a bit too forward, bright and harsh to my ears (but only a bit). The dealer wouldn't let me audition it with another cartridge unless I promised to buy a table that he stocks. I couldn't do that.

Funk Firm Little Super Deck With F5 tonearm
The Little Super Deck is costlier than the Concept, and I heard it with the Ortofon Quintet Bronze. The sound quality was noticeably better -- warmer, slightly laid back and overall smoother.
I am not sure if the difference was because of the cartridge. Maybe the Concept might sound just as good or even better with the same Ortofon Quintet Bronze. I don't know.
But in any case, the Little Super Deck's fit and finish left a lot to be desired. The LSD just doesn't look like it will last a lifetime if one so desires, especially compared to the two following tables... which brings me to...

VPI Scout and Traveler
The dealer did a phenomenal job of setting these two up for my audition. The two tables were set side by side, connected to the same phono stage, tube preamp and amp (all respectable models) and then a pair of Martin Logan floor-standers.
Both tables were fitted with a Benz Micro Ace cartridge. So truly a side-by-side comparison.
Boy, I wished I could just there for ever listening this set up. It sounded amazing.
Maybe the other tables I auditioned may have sounded great as well with the same set up. But I have no way of knowing that.
And as a potential buyer who has no prior experience with turntables, it mattered to me that the dealer took the time to set up the components the way he did. Because it gave me confidence that he knows what he's doing and will help me properly set up the table for me when I purchase it from him. Unlike, say, the lady at the Well Tempered dealership.
Anyway, getting to the two tables:
Build quality of both is top-notch. While the Clearaudio Concept is very easy on the eye with smooth and seductive curves, the VPI tables have a rugged, organic solidity to them that makes them very appealing. They look as if a person made it, rather than a machine.
Both were quite heavy compared to the other sets -- this has to do with the aluminium/steel platter as well as the steel reinforced plinth. The tonearms are steel as well.
They look ready to last you a lifetime.
Now for the music:
Scout--
Very dynamic, puts out a big soundstage, detailed, tight bass, clear highs -- excellent all round. But also left me oddly cold and uninvolved. I can't quite explain it better than that.
And the Traveler?
Less dynamic than the Scout, smaller soundstage, slightly less detail, slightly looser bass, not as clear on the highs. But also warm, smooth, lush and involving. It really drew me into the music, and made my hair stand on end.
Also, don't get me wrong, the Traveler was dynamic, threw a nice soundstage, was fairly detailed and was excellent on both highs and lows. But the Scout clearly bested it (by only a bit) on all these parameters.
But why did the Traveler seem to have so much more 'heart'?
I don't know, really. I don't think I was biased because I could buy the Traveler for cheaper. The Scout isn't really that much more expensive and was well within my budget. In fact, I was going to audition only the Scout but added the Traveler to the list only because I saw it at the shop.
But anyway, I loved the Traveler. And am almost ready to order it.

Now I need to choose a cartridge with a budget of $500-$1000
These are my choices (keep in mind that I already have a good phono stage that can accept cartridges with output of 2.5mV or more):

Nagaoka MP-300 (I heard this is warmer and smoother than the MP-500. That right?)
Dynavector 10x5 High Output Version
Clearaudio Virtuoso Ebony (i fear this may be too bright for my liking)
Benz Micro Ace (might be tough to get the High Output version and it's at the top end of my budget)
Benz Micro Silver (might have trouble getting this immediately)
Grado Gold 1

Also I still have the offer for the Koetsu Rosewood for less than $2000. Quite tempting even though I have to add a separate phono stage.

I prefer a warmer, smoother sound, even if that means losing a bit of detail (but that doesn't mean I don't want any detail!). I am also not a big fan of the Ortofon 2M range.

Any picks/suggestions/recommendations?

Thanks again.

 

[Tzutzu]

Good choice!*i-m_so_happy*

Benz and Dynavector sound so good with the Scout (don't know about Traveller though). Nagaoka are also very fine cartridges (I have one on my Technics SL-1200mk2). But no way you should buy a 200 Euro preamp for a 3000-4000 Euros setup. If you like Musical Fidelity, there is M1ViNL which has very good reviews (I didn't audition one). There are other top preamps to compliment your cartridge. From what I've learned, cartridge and preamp are two key components of an analogue chain.

Have fun!

Tzutzu

 

[geekonstereo]

How would you compare the sound of the Nagaoka against the Benz Ace and Dynavector?
Is the Nagaoka warmer/smoother? Also, do you use the MP-300 or MP-500?
And yes, the Musical Fidelity M1ViNYL seems like a good one. It's currently selling for a discounted price at my dealer. Tempting.
Cheers

 

[Tzutzu]

How would you compare the sound of the Nagaoka against the Benz Ace and Dynavector?Is the Nagaoka warmer/smoother? Also, do you use the MP-300 or MP-500?And yes, the Musical Fidelity M1ViNYL seems like a good one. It's currently selling for a discounted price at my dealer. Tempting.Cheers

The Benz is very balanced, in every way. It has everything in the right amount, smooth sounding, never dull.

Cannot make a fair comparison with the Nagaoka though because it is the entry level mp-110. Nevertheless, it is warm but with good detail and punch.

Dynavector looks to be the preferred cart of Harry Weisfeld of VPI for Scout JMW9 arm. I had for a short time a 20X2 but Benz suited me better.

I don't know how a Nagaoka 300 or 500 would match the VPI arm, but they are superb carts. As a matter of fact I bought another Moon because I'm thinking of a mp-300 right now.

Tzutzu