Hegel H160 overheats

yoda123

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I guess I want to put this out, since it seems no other reviews ever mentioned this. To be honest, if I knew this before I bought the amp, I would probably bought something else. So, I have Hegel H160 for more than a year now. I pair it with KEF R500. As far as sound quality is concerned, I can say I'm 100% happy. I use it exclusively with NAS and a bunch of flac files that are at least at CD quality (some are HD). But, there are some issues with this amp. First, and the most important one - it overheats! If you put it to about 70% power output and listen for 10, 15 minutes, it just stops (with 'heat' blinking in display). It happens EVERY time. Sure, 70% in my rather small room is loud, but sometimes, I like that. I contacted Hegel support about this, and the first reaction was 'Noooo that shouldn't happen, do you have it in some closed area or covered with something?' When I said 'no', the guy told me that he spoke to engineers and that 'it's normal'.In my opinion, this should not be normal at all! The amp should have been designed so it can deliver and sustain it's power for some time that's measured in hours, not minutes'. So now, I use it with a small battery powered fan that I bought from e-bay. I have a 2500 euros amp that can't do what it was supposed to and I need to fix it with a 2 euro fan from e-bay. So far, it seems to work, at that levels I can't hear the fan, most of the time at least. But, still, it's a major design flaw in my opinion. Second. A I said, I use it only with NAS and BubbleUPnP android app. Again, it kind of works. As long as you don't use volume up/down too much, usually, it's great. But, if you do, it's only a matter of time before the amp becomes unresponsive and nothing else works. The current song play out till the end, but then you need to turn the amp off and turn it on again. So again, I use the remote to get around this, but it's annoying. I contacted Bubble about this and they told me a few tweaks that might help - they didn't. :( So, there it is. A great sounding amp, with at least one major design flaw.
 

spiny norman

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yoda123 said:
I guess I want to put this out, since it seems no other reviews ever mentioned this.

Putting it out would seem like a sensible move if it overheatst that badly; a dry powder extinguisher is preferable.
 

radiorog

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Could you find out how loud the amp is at the levels it cuts out? You can downloaf apps tonyour phone or tablet that will accurately tell you rhe decibel level. Then other forum members might be able to add more. In a small room,I can only imagine it cant be that loud, so it seems a bit of a surprising issue you have aired here. I know I can turn my amp up to very loud levels so I can here it in ither rooms, and the volume dial is only at 11-12 oclock,and it hasnt and I wouldnt expect it to cut out. I cannot currwntly give you details on my own db levels as my kit is in storage whilst I move flat and wont be back in action for another month or so.
 

chebby

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Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

It's worth bearing in mind that your R500s dip to 3.2 ohms despite a 'headline' impedance of 8 Ohms. This could be problematic if the dip is in the lower regions (like it is with the R700s between 100 - 150 Hz)
 
chebby said:
Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

It's worth bearing in mind that your R500s dip to 3.2 ohms despite a 'headline' impedance of 8 Ohms. This could be problematic if the dip is in the lower regions (like it is with the R700s between 100 - 150 Hz)

If you are running it to 70 percent travel you must be deaf.

;-)

If it's overheating anyway take it back to dealer for a checkup that sounds dangerous and it shouldn't do it. The Sound Engine Technology is meant to prevent this happening if you read the blurb.

Your KEFs should not pose as a difficult load.
 

lpv

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" The graduation of the volume control should not be decided by marketing people; it's not a matter of just arranging the rotation of the volume control to give the illusion [/i]of power. The volume control should not be a sales inducement tool, as it has now become. The design of the volume control 'rotation' v. power v. loudness is rightly a wholly engineering matter. The purpose of the volume contol is to match the incoming voltage (from an external source) to the power potential of the amplifier in a graduated and logical way so that the maximum power is, ideally, supplied when the volume control is at maximum, and not before[/i].

That's precidely the same consideration of how to graduate the throttle control on a car. Logically, the harder the user presses down on the throttle control, the faster the car should go, with the maximum speed only when the throttle is depressed fully. Imagine the danger and confusion the driver experience if he went from zero to full speed in the first 20% of the throttle peddle range: undrivable.

Consider this: the amp volume control should be arranged in exactly the same way as the throttle controls in an aircraft; maximum speed at maximum throttle, fully forward. Full power, the tap fully open, full volume.

In the pro-audio world, where there is a proper level (gain) structure through the recording and mixing process, we can see how the mixing engineer trims the gain[/i] of signals passing through his mixing console before[/u] they arrive at the channel volume slider control (fader) so that the volume control is always operated 3/4 or so up its loudness range: this is technically correct and gives the best signal to noise ratio.

If the volume control is so misdesigned that most of the loudness is at the bottom end of the volume range, then the marketing people have overridden the engineers and forced them to intentionally create the illusion in the non-technical user of an amplifier "... punching above its weight". They've done this by selecting the wrong type of volume control resistance versus rotation[/i] - there are several resistance laws (output versus input versus rotation angle) to choose from when ordering volume control potentiometers from the supplier.

The gain structure of domestic audio equipment is a lawless, unregulated jungle, with inevitable consequences of reduced fidelity. Equipment cannot be strung together at home with any realistic expectation of genuine fidelity across the audio frequency and dynamic ranges. In the studio, voltage levels are strictly controlled, because professional sound people have been aware of the importance of regulated level since the 1920s: that's about one hundred years. Home audio enthusiasts are unaware of the importance of a strategy to carefully consider and then set voltage levels through their equipment, and they pay for that ignorance."

Alan Shaw
 
lpv said:
" The graduation of the volume control should not be decided by marketing people; it's not a matter of just arranging the rotation of the volume control to give the illusion of power. The volume control should not be a sales inducement tool, as it has now become. The design of the volume control 'rotation' v. power v. loudness is rightly a wholly engineering matter. The purpose of the volume contol is to match the incoming voltage (from an external source) to the power potential of the amplifier in a graduated and logical way so that the maximum power is, ideally, supplied when the volume control is at maximum, and not before.

That's precidely the same consideration of how to graduate the throttle control on a car. Logically, the harder the user presses down on the throttle control, the faster the car should go, with the maximum speed only when the throttle is depressed fully. Imagine the danger and confusion the driver experience if he went from zero to full speed in the first 20% of the throttle peddle range: undrivable.Consider this: the amp volume control should be arranged in exactly the same way as the throttle controls in an aircraft; maximum speed at maximum throttle, fully forward. Full power, the tap fully open, full volume.In the pro-audio world, where there is a proper level (gain) structure through the recording and mixing process, we can see how the mixing engineer trims the gain of signals passing through his mixing console before they arrive at the channel volume slider control (fader) so that the volume control is always operated 3/4 or so up its loudness range: this is technically correct and gives the best signal to noise ratio. If the volume control is so misdesigned that most of the loudness is at the bottom end of the volume range, then the marketing people have overridden the engineers and forced them to intentionally create the illusion in the non-technical user of an amplifier "... punching above its weight". They've done this by selecting the wrong type of volume control resistance versus rotation - there are several resistance laws (output versus input versus rotation angle) to choose from when ordering volume control potentiometers from the supplier.

The gain structure of domestic audio equipment is a lawless, unregulated jungle, with inevitable consequences of reduced fidelity. Equipment cannot be strung together at home with any realistic expectation of genuine fidelity across the audio frequency and dynamic ranges. In the studio, voltage levels are strictly controlled, because professional sound people have been aware of the importance of regulated level since the 1920s: that's about one hundred years. Home audio enthusiasts are unaware of the importance of a strategy to carefully consider and then set voltage levels through their equipment, and they pay for that ignorance."

Alan Shaw

And that helps the OP?
 

lpv

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yoda123 - 70% turn on the volume knob not necessarily represents 70% of the power, hence the above quote.

al ears - from what we know, OP was in touch with Hegel and they say overheat 'it's normal'.. also, the amp is over year old, not sure what warranty they offer? over a year? then to contact the dealer is ok advice, otherwise...
 

spiny norman

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lpv said:
" The graduation of the volume control should not be decided by marketing people; it's not a matter of just arranging the rotation of the volume control to give the illusion of power. The volume control should not be a sales inducement tool, as it has now become. The design of the volume control 'rotation' v. power v. loudness is rightly a wholly engineering matter. The purpose of the volume contol is to match the incoming voltage (from an external source) to the power potential of the amplifier in a graduated and logical way so that the maximum power is, ideally, supplied when the volume control is at maximum, and not before.

That's precidely the same consideration of how to graduate the throttle control on a car. Logically, the harder the user presses down on the throttle control, the faster the car should go, with the maximum speed only when the throttle is depressed fully. Imagine the danger and confusion the driver experience if he went from zero to full speed in the first 20% of the throttle peddle range: undrivable.Consider this: the amp volume control should be arranged in exactly the same way as the throttle controls in an aircraft; maximum speed at maximum throttle, fully forward. Full power, the tap fully open, full volume.In the pro-audio world, where there is a proper level (gain) structure through the recording and mixing process, we can see how the mixing engineer trims the gain of signals passing through his mixing console before they arrive at the channel volume slider control (fader) so that the volume control is always operated 3/4 or so up its loudness range: this is technically correct and gives the best signal to noise ratio. If the volume control is so misdesigned that most of the loudness is at the bottom end of the volume range, then the marketing people have overridden the engineers and forced them to intentionally create the illusion in the non-technical user of an amplifier "... punching above its weight". They've done this by selecting the wrong type of volume control resistance versus rotation - there are several resistance laws (output versus input versus rotation angle) to choose from when ordering volume control potentiometers from the supplier.

The gain structure of domestic audio equipment is a lawless, unregulated jungle, with inevitable consequences of reduced fidelity. Equipment cannot be strung together at home with any realistic expectation of genuine fidelity across the audio frequency and dynamic ranges. In the studio, voltage levels are strictly controlled, because professional sound people have been aware of the importance of regulated level since the 1920s: that's about one hundred years. Home audio enthusiasts are unaware of the importance of a strategy to carefully consider and then set voltage levels through their equipment, and they pay for that ignorance."

Alan Shaw

Are you Shaw?
 

steve_1979

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chebby said:
Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

+1

If the OP has turned the volume knob to 70% maximum then the amp is very likely being pushed beyond its limits. The Hegal H160 probably does not have enough power for the OPs requirements when he want to play it loud.

Maybe it's time to upgrade to a Hegal H300?
 

lpv

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you've said you have rather small room? how small is the room?

you could go higher in the Hegel catalogue or possibly get more efficient speakers...
 

Andrewjvt

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Out of 99 i take it. In kr500s in a small room?
Are you serious? Depending on source levels i bet youve driven the amp into clip. Thats way too loud anyway i never really go over 50 on my dial and thats with atc.

When i jad kef r700 i never had to go over 45 on dial and thats pretty loud but the amp stays cool so maybe tiyve over driven your amp.

Sell it and get a pa?
 
Andrewjvt said:
Out of 99 i take it. In kr500s in a small room? Are you serious? Depending on source levels i bet youve driven the amp into clip. Thats way too loud anyway i never really go over 50 on my dial and thats with atc.

When i jad kef r700 i never had to go over 45 on dial and thats pretty loud but the amp stays cool so maybe tiyve over driven your amp.

Sell it and get a pa?

Why would he need a Personal Assistant? ;-)
 

Andrewjvt

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Al ears said:
Andrewjvt said:
Out of 99 i take it. In kr500s in a small room? Are you serious? Depending on source levels i bet youve driven the amp into clip. Thats way too loud anyway i never really go over 50 on my dial and thats with atc.

When i jad kef r700 i never had to go over 45 on dial and thats pretty loud but the amp stays cool so maybe tiyve over driven your amp.

Sell it and get a pa?

Why would he need a Personal Assistant?  ;-)
The pa
Is to stop him turning volume too high
 

gasolin

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radiorog said:
Could you find out how loud the amp is at the levels it cuts out? You can downloaf apps tonyour phone or tablet that will accurately tell you rhe decibel level. Then other forum members might be able to add more. In a small room,I can only imagine it cant be that loud, so it seems a bit of a surprising issue you have aired here. I know I can turn my amp up to very loud levels so I can here it in ither rooms, and the volume dial is only at 11-12 oclock,and it hasnt and I wouldnt expect it to cut out. I cannot currwntly give you details on my own db levels as my kit is in storage whilst I move flat and wont be back in action for another month or so.

You can't use that a phone.tablet is limited by there cheap microphone
 

gasolin

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chebby said:
Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

It's worth bearing in mind that your R500s dip to 3.2 ohms despite a 'headline' impedance of 8 Ohms. This could be problematic if the dip is in the lower regions (like it is with the R700s between 100 - 150 Hz)

No they do not at all deliver max power by 12 O'clock (not even with a turntable an amp does not deliver max power at 12 O'clock) with a cdplayer it might already be at 9-10 O'clock https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=20m38s

My turntable doesn't deliver full power at 12 o'clock but my cd player might deliver max at 10 O'clock

(i actually don't play so loud that i know when i reach my amps limited, i just know with my turntable it doesn't deliver max power at 12 O'clock, it's above 12 O'clock)
 

gasolin

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spiny norman said:
gasolin said:
You can't use that a phone.tablet is limited by there cheap microphone

Agreed, but I rather like 'downloaf'

My note 3 i couldn't get past 90-91 db less than 1 inch from the speakers, since 1 watt is 86 db 2 is 89 and 4 is 92db, in theory i should be able to play alot louder but the limited is my phones microphone

Also you need to know what max spl is with the amp/speakers

Wharfedale diamond 220 is rated at 86db and 100watt that should be 86+20db = 106

Guess what, wharfedale rates max peak power spl at only 95db, using sensitivity and max watt of the speaker is not always the true max spl http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/product.php?pid=76

kef rates R500 to 150 watt,88 db and 111db as a max spl, i don't know any phone, tablet who could handle,measure such a high spl http://kef.com/html/en/showroom/hi-fi_series/r_series/fact_sheet/Floorstanding/r500/index.html
 

gasolin

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steve_1979 said:
chebby said:
Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

+1

If the OP has turned the volume knob to 70% maximum then the amp is very likely being pushed beyond its limits. The Hegal H160 probably does not have enough power for the OPs requirements when he want to play it loud.

Maybe it's time to upgrade to a Hegal H300?

You don't know if it's 70% of max power (max power in 8 ohm is 150watt) or 70% of the travel of the volume knob, if the wolume knob is rated in numbers it would be 70 if it goes all the way up to 100
 

chebby

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gasolin said:
No they do not at all deliver max power by 12 O'clock (not even with a turntable an amp does not deliver max power at 12 O'clock) with a cdplayer it might already be at 9-10 O'clock https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=20m38

My turntable doesn't deliver full power at 12 o'clock but my cd player might deliver max at 10 O'clock

(i actually don't play so loud that i know when i reach my amps limited, i just know with my turntable it doesn't deliver max power at 12 O'clock, it's above 12 O'clock)

I wasn't writing about turntables (nor stereo tuners) because they are niche sources that only interest relatively few people.

I was writing about the typical amp/CD (or amp/DAC) pairing where the source output signals are typically upwards of 2V (2.2V is a frequently seen figure).

I also stated "by 12 o'clock" and not "at 12 o'clock", so that allowed for amps that max out before 12 o'clock on the volume control.

I think we are basically in agreement. I've been in that situation (Naim CD5i-2/Nait 5i-2) where maximum power was reached anywhere between 10 o'clock and 12 o'clock depending on the speakers being used.

Conversely a matching Naim NAT05 tuner could be used, comfortably, at higher volume control settings because of it's lower output.
 

gasolin

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steve_1979 said:
gasolin said:
steve_1979 said:
chebby said:
Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

+1

If the OP has turned the volume knob to 70% maximum then the amp is very likely being pushed beyond its limits. The Hegal H160 probably does not have enough power for the OPs requirements when he want to play it loud.

Maybe it's time to upgrade to a Hegal H300?

You don't know if it's 70% of max power (max power in 8 ohm is 150watt) or 70% of the travel of the volume knob, if the wolume knob is rated in numbers it would be 70 if it goes all the way up to 100

That's why I used the terms "very likely" and "probably".

If he does turn the volume knob to 70% and it cuts out due to thermal overload after 15 minutes then it is very likely that he has is pushed the amplifier well past its limits.

The one party of my comment that is least likely to be correct is suggesting that a Hegal H300 would solve his problems. It would be better but I suspect that even with an extra 100 watts he will still have the same problem. What he really needs is either a PA amp, more efficient speakers or some large high powered active speakers. IMO he'd be best off getting rid of his amp and speakers and swapping them for some Event Opals or something similar.

Had the Yamaha HS80 they are also very powerfull or mabye Adam A8X
 

gasolin

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My old amp Nad C326BEE also got alot more hot then a Marantz PM6005 but i never had i crash or shut down

nothing wrong with wanting to play loud and the Kef R500 like many other speaker from dynadio,monitor audio,jbl,q acoustics, tannoy can play loud.

According to sterophile it goes from 0 to 99 so 70 is about 70% of max volume, is 99 max power or like a traditional volume knob where 12 O'clock (mabye 50 on the hegel) is loud, where cd is above rated power (distortion) turntable under max power (no distortion) and max volume all the way (about 5 O'clock,99 on the hegel) is to make shure the voulme could be raised more if music around 12 O'clock is very low (not close to max power).

I have adjusted my sources with my dac/soundcard to match gain (pc/cdplayer) and then adjusted it so sound is loud at 12 O'clock but no distortion and it does matches my turntable (even when i didn't have a turntable when i adjusted my dac/soundcard), i have had the PM5005,6005 and now 8005 i have never with these amps had heat problems (not saying you should by a marantz amp, mabye consider one if you want a different amp that's not a pa amp)

Try another Hegel H160

Buy more sensitive speaker

Buy a different amp

Or mabye som active speaker like Yamaha HS80 or Adam A8X
 

steve_1979

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gasolin said:
steve_1979 said:
chebby said:
Most amps have reached full power by 12 O'clock on the volume control.

I don't know what "70%" means. Is that 70% of the full travel of the volume control?

If so, I guess you are running it into clipping - as well as thermal overload - and it is trying to protect itself and your ears!

+1

If the OP has turned the volume knob to 70% maximum then the amp is very likely being pushed beyond its limits. The Hegal H160 probably does not have enough power for the OPs requirements when he want to play it loud.

Maybe it's time to upgrade to a Hegal H300?

You don't know if it's 70% of max power (max power in 8 ohm is 150watt) or 70% of the travel of the volume knob, if the wolume knob is rated in numbers it would be 70 if it goes all the way up to 100

That's why I used the terms "very likely" and "probably".

If he does turn the volume knob to 70% and it cuts out due to thermal overload after 15 minutes then it is very likely that he has is pushed the amplifier well past its limits.

The part of my comment that is least likely to be correct is suggesting that a Hegal H300 would solve his problems. It would be better but I suspect that even with an extra 100 watts he will still have the same problem. What he really needs is either a PA amp, more efficient speakers or some large high powered active speakers. IMO he'd be best off getting rid of his amp and speakers and swapping them for some Event Opals or something similar.
 

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