headroom how important

Blacksabbath25

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Let’s discuss what headroom means and how important headroom is .

here is what I find about the subject...

Headroom refers to the amount by which the signal-handling capabilities of an audio system exceed a designated level. Put simply, headroom can be thought of as the safe zone, in which transient audio peaks (or ‘spikes in the music) cannot damage the audio system or audio signal. Clipping is the result of exceeding the headroom of a given audio system.

so how many of us think about this when buying a amplifier and speakers and those of you that are new to the hobby join in if you wish as the more knowledgeable of you please add your thoughts
 

lpv

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Blacksabbath25 said:
Let’s discuss what headroom means and how important headroom is .

here is what I find about the subject...

Headroom refers to the amount by which the signal-handling capabilities of an audio system exceed a designated level. Put simply, headroom can be thought of as the safe zone, in which transient audio peaks (or ‘spikes in the music) cannot damage the audio system or audio signal. Clipping is the result of exceeding the headroom of a given audio system.

so how many of us think about this when buying a amplifier and speakers and those of you that are new to the hobby join in if you wish as the more knowledgeable of you please add your thoughts

headroom is mega important to me.. midbass in my speakers can take 500watts peak and amp behind the driver delivers that power. I’m sure headroom and dynamics are nightmare with passive systems
 

Blacksabbath25

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Unsure about active speakers to be honest but with passive I would say the peaks or a spike would only be for a second but I would of thought a amplifier with some power would have the reserves so would cope with that unless the amplifier is under powered

so how much head room would you need ?
 

CnoEvil

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I believe Transient Response is linked to Headroom, and is an area in which my amp excels. It may only have 35W into 8 Ohms, but because it doubles this into 4, and again into 2...it sounds much more powerful than this, especially if you match it with reasonably sensitve speakers that have plummeting impedance.

Here is what Oldric (lapsed member) wrote about the AMS35i, when assuring Iceman that it had enough power:

"Class A amps may seem underpowered when RMS rating is concerned but in reality they have more grunt then typical class AB amps. it's due to the fact that class A is very inefficient driving a sinewave (RMS power test).

In case of AMS 35i it's capable of nearly 300W power bursts into 8 Ohms. so I wouldn't call it underpowered. and if you realise that most of the time you need less than 1W of power to drive speakers peak power capability is what really counts, not RMS rating. in other words; music is never a steady state sinewave.

So, if you're looking at a class AB or class D amps equally capable of driving speakers as AMS 35i you should think of amps capable of some 250Wpc into 8 Ohms and double that for 4 Ohms rating.

Trust me. You'll not find AMS underpowered."
 

steve_1979

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CnoEvil said:
I believe Transient Response is linked to Headroom, and is an area in which my amp excels. It may only have 35W into 8 Ohms, but because it doubles this into 4, and again into 2...it sounds much more powerful than this, especially if you match it with reasonably sensitve speakers with plummeting impedance.

Here is what Oldric (lapsed member) wrote about the AMS35i, when assuring Iceman that it had enough power:

"Class A amps may seem underpowered when RMS rating is concerned but in reality they have more grunt then typical class AB amps. it's due to the fact that class A is very inefficient driving a sinewave (RMS power test).

In case of AMS 35i it's capable of nearly 300W power bursts into 8 Ohms. so I wouldn't call it underpowered. and if you realise that most of the time you need less than 1W of power to drive speakers peak power capability is what really counts, not RMS rating. in other words; music is never a steady state sinewave.

So, if you're looking at a class AB or class D amps equally capable of driving speakers as AMS 35i you should think of amps capable of some 250Wpc into 8 Ohms and double that for 4 Ohms rating.

Trust me. You'll not find AMS underpowered."

There is good logic to this. With music you only need an average of a few watts most of the time but dynamic music will require regular millisecond bursts that can reach into the hundreds of watts. This is what headroom is for.

I don't know much about your AMS35i amplifier but and average of 35 watts is plenty of power providing it's also capable of producing a couple of hundred watts for the millisecond long 'peaks' that music require.
 

steve_1979

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Blacksabbath25 said:
headroom how important

Your Dali Opticon 8 speakers are rated at 350 watts but if you tried to put a contious 350 watts into them the voice coils would overheat and melt within a few seconds. They probably couldn't even handle 50 watt continuously for very long either.

The real reason that Dali say that you can use a 350 watt ampifier is because a powerful amplifier will give you enough headroom to allow it to produce several hundred watt millisecond peaks that your speaker can handle. If an ampifier doesn't clip onto the massive millisecond peaks it sounds clearer.

As I said in the other thread headroom isn't about playing music loud it's about playing music clearer without clipped peaks.
 

Vladimir

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I've researched and experimented in this topic. My conclusion is that inefficient speakers can't have the spine tingling liveliness efficient ones achieve on few watts even if you drive them with monster amps. The magic is in the drivers, not the amps.

Lightnes gives specific agility that brute force can't.
 

Blacksabbath25

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I wasn’t thinking of out right power in how loud I could take the sound but what interests me was the back up power for theses peaks when needed and the fact it’s clean power with out clipping

In the class D Crown power amplifiers they have a small power supply’s but you get all of those watts but with class A-B they stick a big power supply but no where near the power of a Crown power amplifier
 

steve_1979

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Blacksabbath25 said:
Unsure about active speakers to be honest but with passive I would say the peaks or a spike would only be for a second but I would of thought a amplifier with some power would have the reserves so would cope with that unless the amplifier is under powered

so how much head room would you need ?

A second is a very long time. Music peaks are much much shorter. Usually they only last for just a few milliseconds. However they do tend to occur regularly.

With dynamic music very short millisecond long peaks requiring hundreds of watts can often occure several times per second even though the average output will be less than 10 watts at normal listening levels. This is why a 50 watt amplifier sounds ok and is plenty loud enough because it can 'do' the 10 watt average no problem but it doesn't sound as lively as a more powerful amplifier because the short milisecond peaks are being clipped.
 

drummerman

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My guess is the Crown's will sound like many cheap PA amps do. - Bass light and somewhat relentless, unrefined and harsh compared to even a cheap decent hifi amplifier. It will be loud but that may be about it.

The stuff uneven harmonic distortion is made of.

I may be wrong but doubt it.
 

Infiniteloop

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steve_1979 said:
CnoEvil said:
I believe Transient Response is linked to Headroom, and is an area in which my amp excels. It may only have 35W into 8 Ohms, but because it doubles this into 4, and again into 2...it sounds much more powerful than this, especially if you match it with reasonably sensitve speakers with plummeting impedance.

Here is what Oldric (lapsed member) wrote about the AMS35i, when assuring Iceman that it had enough power:

"Class A amps may seem underpowered when RMS rating is concerned but in reality they have more grunt then typical class AB amps. it's due to the fact that class A is very inefficient driving a sinewave (RMS power test).

In case of AMS 35i it's capable of nearly 300W power bursts into 8 Ohms. so I wouldn't call it underpowered. and if you realise that most of the time you need less than 1W of power to drive speakers peak power capability is what really counts, not RMS rating. in other words; music is never a steady state sinewave.

So, if you're looking at a class AB or class D amps equally capable of driving speakers as AMS 35i you should think of amps capable of some 250Wpc into 8 Ohms and double that for 4 Ohms rating.

Trust me. You'll not find AMS underpowered."

There is good logic to this. With music you only need an average of a few watts most of the time but dynamic music will require regular millisecond bursts that can reach into the hundreds of watts. This is what headroom is for.

I don't know much about your AMS35i amplifier but and average of 35 watts is plenty of power providing it's also capable of producing a couple of hundred watts for the millisecond long 'peaks' that music require.

My Devialet 200 will provide 3000W peak. That's probably why it sounds so effortless.
 

insider9

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Especially if you plan on doing any DSP as it lowers headroom considerably.

Power is only one aspect of it and it definitely helps. Quality of power supply an entirely different matter.

I think of it as transients representing agility and power the strength. Being strong doesn't mean you're agile. Amp needs to be able to swing big voltages and current instantly, bigger ones will have it easier but it's not a given.

Another good reason what continous power you're using :)
 

Vladimir

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drummerman said:
My guess is the Crown's will sound like many cheap PA amps do. - Bass light and somewhat relentless, unrefined and harsh compared to even a cheap decent hifi amplifier. It will be loud but that may be about it.

The stuff uneven harmonic distortion is made of.

I may be wrong but doubt it.

Wait till you hold a new Crown with SMPS + Class D. It's so light and cheap feeling, you wont be able to have an errection for months.
 

lpv

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goosebumps_0.jpg
 

Blacksabbath25

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Vladimir said:
drummerman said:
My guess is the Crown's will sound like many cheap PA amps do. - Bass light and somewhat relentless, unrefined and harsh compared to even a cheap decent hifi amplifier. It will be loud but that may be about it.

The stuff uneven harmonic distortion is made of.

I may be wrong but doubt it.

Wait till you hold a new Crown with SMPS + Class D. It's so light and cheap feeling, you wont be able to have an errection for months.
the new Crown is what I am on about it’s class D and yes it’s got a fan but you would really have to push it to make the fan come on and the crown will go down to a 2 ohm load .

ive seen people on YouTube using them with there home cinema setups with 2 crowns bridged 15000 watts and as it’s class D they can also be used to power some subwoofers

and I would of thought being class D it should be excellent for bass so shouldn’t be bass light
 

DocG

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CnoEvil said:
I believe Transient Response is linked to Headroom, and is an area in which my amp excels. It may only have 35W into 8 Ohms, but because it doubles this into 4, and again into 2...it sounds much more powerful than this, especially if you match it with reasonably sensitve speakers that have plummeting impedance.

Here is what Oldric (lapsed member) wrote about the AMS35i, when assuring Iceman that it had enough power:

"Class A amps may seem underpowered when RMS rating is concerned but in reality they have more grunt then typical class AB amps. it's due to the fact that class A is very inefficient driving a sinewave (RMS power test).

In case of AMS 35i it's capable of nearly 300W power bursts into 8 Ohms. so I wouldn't call it underpowered. and if you realise that most of the time you need less than 1W of power to drive speakers peak power capability is what really counts, not RMS rating. in other words; music is never a steady state sinewave.

So, if you're looking at a class AB or class D amps equally capable of driving speakers as AMS 35i you should think of amps capable of some 250Wpc into 8 Ohms and double that for 4 Ohms rating.

Trust me. You'll not find AMS underpowered."

oldric_naubhoff gave me a lot of inspiration (and pleasure). Shame he left the forum. I wouldn’t have ended up where I am, if it wasn’t for him. (Though you’re the one that got me started, Cno!)
 

drummerman

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DocG said:
CnoEvil said:
I believe Transient Response is linked to Headroom, and is an area in which my amp excels. It may only have 35W into 8 Ohms, but because it doubles this into 4, and again into 2...it sounds much more powerful than this, especially if you match it with reasonably sensitve speakers that have plummeting impedance.

Here is what Oldric (lapsed member) wrote about the AMS35i, when assuring Iceman that it had enough power:

"Class A amps may seem underpowered when RMS rating is concerned but in reality they have more grunt then typical class AB amps. it's due to the fact that class A is very inefficient driving a sinewave (RMS power test).

In case of AMS 35i it's capable of nearly 300W power bursts into 8 Ohms. so I wouldn't call it underpowered. and if you realise that most of the time you need less than 1W of power to drive speakers peak power capability is what really counts, not RMS rating. in other words; music is never a steady state sinewave.

So, if you're looking at a class AB or class D amps equally capable of driving speakers as AMS 35i you should think of amps capable of some 250Wpc into 8 Ohms and double that for 4 Ohms rating.

Trust me. You'll not find AMS underpowered."

oldric_naubhoff gave me a lot of inspiration (and pleasure). Shame he left the forum. I wouldn’t have ended up where I am, if it wasn’t for him. (Though you’re the one that got me started, Cno!)

Hypex seem to make superb Class D products. Apparently far removed from the usual (and sometimes justified) prejudices about the topology, at least until a few years ago. Very low distortion too.

Still, I have a feeling they are as far removed from the Crown class D amps as we are from China.

If I am wrong they seem bargains, garish looks and facia illuminations apart.
 

davedotco

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Crown have been building Class D amps for years and the latest XLS series are pretty amazing.

The technology employed allows high power at relatively cool temperatures and modest weight, all important for some pro applications, though not af great importance to the home user.

For hi-fi use, these amps are effectively transparent, they are not voiced to sound hi-fi, what comes out is what you put in, only louder. The fans are unlikely to be needed in regular hi-fi use, the displays can be switched off completely or the amp hidden away and powered up remotely.

This enables the more adventurous enthusiast to tailor the sound to taste using a favourite dac or pre-amp, for example using a valve type pre-amp (a Schiit saga + XLS1502 costs around £750 for example). Add a dac to taste, hi-res, DSD, multibit, whatever, and you have a flexible, hi performance setup that starts, depending on your choices, at under £1k and delivers in excess of 500 wpc into 4 ohms.
 

Electro

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As an Electrocompaniet amp user I can confirm that transient power is one of the most important features of an amplifier if you want the music to sound real and exciting .

My reference has always been live music and I am lucky that I live near to so many small and meduim sized venues that really care about sound quality as do the artists that regularly play there.

One of the most striking *smile* things about live music is how incredibly dynamic drums and percusssion intruments are compared to most HiFi systems and to be fair some of this is down to the recording.

My Electro amps are capable of delivering several kilowatts of transient power on dynamic material and you can really hear it especially with kick drums and other large drums.

With complex loud music with soft and hard percusive sounds an amp like the Electro keeps all the transients separate without smearing allowing the music to sound reall rather than just a mish mash of confusing sounds.

Electronic music becomes a physical as well as a listening event just like live music.

I posted a video a while ago of an amp playing some very well recorded smooth Jazz in which peaks reached over a kilowatt !

Here it is again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP8i8F62OlM#t=1m09s
 

DocG

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CnoEvil said:
DocG said:
Though you’re the one that got me started, Cno!

*diablo*

The Brussels Collective was hard to beat....and I often wonder how they're getting on.

Let’s be straight: Alex & Roby were bonkers, driving for hours to compare two interconnects... But it all made for very entertaining reading!

Last time I bumped into Alex, he was selling his Guarneri Evolutions online. Other priorities as life goes on, I guess...
 

DocG

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Electro said:
I posted a video a while ago of an amp playing some very well recorded smooth Jazz in which peaks reached over a kilowatt !

Here it is again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP8i8F62OlM#t=1m09s

Very enlightening indeed. I think he uses rather low sensitivity speakers though, when I see the average power level, mostly over 10W, even for quiet passages. Either that, or he’s playing really loud...
 

Electro

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DocG said:
Electro said:
I posted a video a while ago of an amp playing some very well recorded smooth Jazz in which peaks reached over a kilowatt !

Here it is again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP8i8F62OlM#t=1m09s

Very enlightening indeed. I think he uses rather low sensitivity speakers though, when I see the average power level, mostly over 10W, even for quiet passages. Either that, or he’s playing really loud...

Yes I suspect you're right, but the video was of one of two mono blocks so there may have been less or more power being shown by the other mono block.

It is quite likely that it was played quite loudly and I know that the piece of music playing has a very large dynamic range, but it is still a very good illustration that a great deal of peak power is needed if transients are to be preserved without clipping or smearing and Transient Intermodulation Distortion.

Electrocompanient amps were designed and built from the begining to specifically try and tackle this problem .

https://www.electrocompaniet.no/about/history.html

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3c0/a892a982ebde91f83f228905dac30186f827.pdf
 

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