General Hi-Fi post - social media

[Angle Poise-Lamp]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S64fYFDqJlU

I'm sure if you could handle both watches together and, even if you didn't know the brands, you would be left in no doubt the Rolex is the better watch but, whether it is worth paying so much for a watch, is another matter. I don't do bling so, even if I could readily afford the Rolex, I wouldn't buy it.

 

[Revolutions]

I'm sure if you could handle both watches together and, even if you didn't know the brands, you would be left in no doubt the Rolex is the better watch but, whether it is worth paying so much for a watch, is another matter. I don't do bling so, even if I could readily afford the Rolex, I wouldn't buy it.

You’ve sort of hit the nail on the head here. “Better” absolutely subjective.

Maybe there’s some parallels with he world’s best mechanical engineering - if a Rolex is 0.0001% more accurate at keeping time, does it actually make the watch any better at keeping time vs the cheaper version?

As @bigboss said, it’s all perception. People feel better by wearing a Rolex, for potently multitudes of reasons. Even though you love it for the exclusivity & brand mystique, you’ll still tell your friends it’s objectively a better watch.

Going back to what @davidf said in the original posts… some cables & components will lead to measurable differences. My point about human hearing is pertinent, I feel, as our hearing is limited meaning everything measurable might not be observable.

Hifi is in a bit of a particular pickle as we’ve all become entrenched in antipodal, binary views where the answer is more complex and allows many things to be true at the same time.

One that comes up over & over again is: measurable vs observable. It’s a completely straw man dichotomy as you need both to be true in order to create quality products, but it’s easier to pick a side & argue online.

- all dac chips might sound the same, but once it’s on.a different circuit board. It won’t take many capacitor or resistor values changs to make it measurable different, but what is the threshold when we start to hear the tonal difference?

In the world of guitar amps & pedals, there’s often only a couple of component changes are needed to impact noise floor or tone.

Clearly, only relying on measurements is a fools errand, especially for people like me who have no idea what sites like ASR actually test & why. Great scores are meaningless to me, yet they’re persuasive. Likewise, a recommendation can be massively valuable for me, but without some understanding of technical spec I’m just blindly following someone’s opinion.

This has got a bit sprawling & I’m not sure what point I’m actually trying to make. But I’ll end on this: acoustics & the mechanics of human hearing is a solved problem. It’s pure maths (as I learnt to my horrific detriment during a failed first year studying audio electronics at uni), and maths 100% rooted in evidence - or so I understand.

Been quite interesting reading different perspectives and it feels most people are open to a conversation rather than shut each other down.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

ASR and their measurements is not the holy bible, you shouldn´t follow it blindly.
But it provides regular people interested in hi-fi some very useful information & guidance, specially for those who lack the technical knowledge, like me and, I suspect, most of the so called "audiophiles".

 

[Gray]

if a Rolex is 0.0001% more accurate at keeping time, does it actually make the watch any better at keeping time vs the cheaper version?

My 10 quid Casio is easy to set to the second on the sixth (FM) pip - and I wouldn't mind betting that it stays accurate for longer than a similarly synced Rolex.
That alone makes the Casio the better watch to me.

acoustics & the mechanics of human hearing is a solved problem. It’s pure maths (as I learnt to my horrific detriment during a failed first year studying audio electronics at uni), and maths 100% rooted in evidence - or so I understand.

They describe maths as a pure science.
Well, I like science, but I'm no fan of maths.
On my first night at the City & Guilds electronic servicing college, I called out to the lecturer, "if you're gonna start writing formulas on the board, I'm going home".
The rest of the class laughed - I think they thought I was joking.
Fortunately, there really wasn't much maths on that course - I can manage repair - but leave the designing to the maths boffins / clever bastards.
Work colleagues gave the fault finding advice, "if it's black, change it". They meant transistors and chips - but it works for burnt components 😆

Amir at ASR is one of those clever bastards. I'll never fully understand everything he does, but I appreciate that he does it....even if he did describe my PMC speakers as a failed design (not when they're playing The Salsoul Orchestra at >80dB mate 😉)

 

[davidf]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S64fYFDqJlU

I purchased an Invicta watch on a deal many years ago. Nice looking watch. But within a couple of years, the glass fogged up. Bet that wouldn't happen to a Rolex.

 

[davidf]

Going back to what @davidf said in the original posts… some cables & components will lead to measurable differences. My point about human hearing is pertinent, I feel, as our hearing is limited meaning everything measurable might not be observable.

Hifi is in a bit of a particular pickle as we’ve all become entrenched in antipodal, binary views where the answer is more complex and allows many things to be true at the same time.

One that comes up over & over again is: measurable vs observable. It’s a completely straw man dichotomy as you need both to be true in order to create quality products, but it’s easier to pick a side & argue online.

There are people that cannot tell the difference between DVD and Bluray, and that's a blatant, observable difference, especially when you know what you're looking for - much the same as knowing what to listen to/for when comparing two audio products. Even if there was large measurable differences between the likes of cables, there'd still be people who would swear there were no differences.

 

[Gray]

Bet that wouldn't happen to a Rolex.

Nor my Casio 😁

 

[bigboss]

Nor my Casio 😁

What would the value of the Casio be after 10 years Vs the Rolex? This is the bit that gets overlooked and is probably the main difference between us commoners that focus on mere utility of the product and the moneymakers.

Rolex watches generally retain or appreciate in value over time, often outperforming traditional investments due to high demand, limited supply and brand prestige. It's listed as a part of inheritance in most wills of Rolex owners.

 

[Al ears]

What would the value of the Casio be after 10 years Vs the Rolex? This is the bit that gets overlooked and is probably the main difference between us commoners that focus on mere utility of the product and the moneymakers.

Rolex watches generally retain or appreciate in value over time, often outperforming traditional investments due to high demand, limited supply and brand prestige. It's listed as a part of inheritance in most wills of Rolex owners.

Perhaps another indication of our "throwaway" society .
Damage the Casio and you'll probably throw it away and buy another, damage a Rolex and you'll be repairing it.
So, do you buy something as an investment that can be passed down to the next generation or do you simply want something that tells the time?

 

[Revolutions]

There are people that cannot tell the difference between DVD and Bluray, and that's a blatant, observable difference, especially when you know what you're looking for - much the same as knowing what to listen to/for when comparing two audio products. Even if there was large measurable differences between the likes of cables, there'd still be people who would swear there were no differences.

Scientists would get round those limitations in the build of a test - ie using test tones & filtering people by age/known hearing damage etc.

The rea truth about psychoacoustics is people will hear a difference if they're motivated to for any reason:. And there's a myiaf of reasons why someone might be keen to hear that difference. It still tends to lead down this road that's either 'performance' measurement or subjective listening. Neither will give the right awswer without the other; they're interdependent.

The ASR approach confuses me in a similar way to you: how can one pick audio equipment purely on distortion figures? It seems completely insane, and just as scientifically flawed as marketing for high-end cables. Humans are pretty much unable to live in objective rationality- we are a species driven by emotion + our brains taking shortcuts via subconscious assumptions to save energy. It is impossible to discount the human experience when i comes to every single one of our senses.

What I've learnt from quickly scrolling to the bottom of product tests on ASR to where the results are, sometimes the reviewer states that despite terrible measurements the unit sounds great so he'll recommend anyways.

The other side of listening to stuff that I tend to forget is: it's not as if there will only be 1 setup that we love. They'll be countless combinations of amps & speakers that I'd fall head over heels in love with - and the only way I can experience that is buy listening to it. Haha, and maybe even one day I'll let someone in a shop swap some xlrs for a more expensive pair & eat my hat when the difference is night and day 😂

One big difference of the ASR demographic is they're mostly seeking out new brands or lower end models that might not have a physical distro. Admittedly that makes listening as part of the judgement process a lot harder. In my non-expert opinion, the folk searching for perfection by measurements alone is a deeply entrenched & biased view. Admittedly I do similar things - seek out & buy equipment based on reviews, forum chatter, and of course the 1000% unreliable decision to think i'll know how something sounds as I had an amp by them 10 years ago...

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

I purchased an Invicta watch on a deal many years ago. Nice looking watch. But within a couple of years, the glass fogged up. Bet that wouldn't happen to a Rolex.

You didn´t watch the whole video, did you?
It´s not about Invicta & Rolex.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Maybe there’s some parallels with he world’s best mechanical engineering - if a Rolex is 0.0001% more accurate at keeping time, does it actually make the watch any better at keeping time vs the cheaper version?

I have five watches, three quartz and two mechanicals. The former are more accurate than the latter, though not by enough to bother me. They are jewellery really, and I like the mechanicals better. They feel better made (as they ought to given price difference), and I know I bought at least one of them for reasons that are not entirely logical. The TAG I've had for years, and I know the appeal was as much because of the F1 association that formed in my young brain watching Grands Prix in the late 70s/early 80s as anything else. The other I love the look of, but the name would be lost on almost everyone so there are no bragging rights - something with which I'd be uncomfortable anyway.

I concluded that there was no harm in treating myself as long as I wasn't deluding myself at the same time (or buying something because I thought it would make to look a certain way to others)!

 

[davidf]

You didn´t watch the whole video, did you?
It´s not about Invicta & Rolex.

I didn't watch the video at all.

 

[davidf]

Scientists would get round those limitations in the build of a test - ie using test tones & filtering people by age/known hearing damage etc.

The rea truth about psychoacoustics is people will hear a difference if they're motivated to for any reason:. And there's a myiaf of reasons why someone might be keen to hear that difference. It still tends to lead down this road that's either 'performance' measurement or subjective listening. Neither will give the right awswer without the other; they're interdependent.

The ASR approach confuses me in a similar way to you: how can one pick audio equipment purely on distortion figures? It seems completely insane, and just as scientifically flawed as marketing for high-end cables. Humans are pretty much unable to live in objective rationality- we are a species driven by emotion + our brains taking shortcuts via subconscious assumptions to save energy. It is impossible to discount the human experience when i comes to every single one of our senses.

What I've learnt from quickly scrolling to the bottom of product tests on ASR to where the results are, sometimes the reviewer states that despite terrible measurements the unit sounds great so he'll recommend anyways.

The other side of listening to stuff that I tend to forget is: it's not as if there will only be 1 setup that we love. They'll be countless combinations of amps & speakers that I'd fall head over heels in love with - and the only way I can experience that is buy listening to it. Haha, and maybe even one day I'll let someone in a shop swap some xlrs for a more expensive pair & eat my hat when the difference is night and day 😂

One big difference of the ASR demographic is they're mostly seeking out new brands or lower end models that might not have a physical distro. Admittedly that makes listening as part of the judgement process a lot harder. In my non-expert opinion, the folk searching for perfection by measurements alone is a deeply entrenched & biased view. Admittedly I do similar things - seek out & buy equipment based on reviews, forum chatter, and of course the 1000% unreliable decision to think i'll know how something sounds as I had an amp by them 10 years ago...

I really wanted to hear a difference when I had the chance of buying some Townshend speaker cables at a really good price. I'd have probably just jumped on them at the price, but had the chance to try them out. To me, they gave me nothing over what I was already using. So, I didn't buy them. Where does that fit in with the whole non-blind test, will hear differences based on price etc?

I get why people would buy on specs, I just don't understand it. You could have a supercar with fantastic performance figures, but it could be a complete dog to drive. And you don't know that until you experience it. The specs don't (and will never) convey that. When everyone started banging on about Eversolo, I tried the A6 and it was cold and lifeless - I didn't care what the specs were, it just didn't sound good.

I think the whole ARSe ethos is that they want high-end, they're just not prepared to pay high-end prices (who does?). As we know, high-end products don't always measure well, so they compare the figures where cheap products can compete. And that justifies these products for them. They don't seem to talk as much about speakers (not that I've seen, but I don't really look on there any more), but choosing a pair of speakers on numbers has some merit. But again, what do they actually sound like? They could be the most accurate speakers in the world, but if you don't like the sound of them, so what?

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

I didn't watch the video at all.

I understand. You seem allergic to anything that would improve your knowledge.
That´s why you dislike ASR so much, I guess.

 

[davidf]

I think like everything nowadays, online groups have appeared which only serve to stir the pot, spoil, take the fun out of everything for those that enjoy the hobby/pastime.

I remember being in secondary school, maybe about 12/13, early 80s, and drawing the Technics system I was going to buy in the back of my maths book. I knew the model numbers, I knew the specs, and would choose one model over another because it had 0.005% less distortion. I've done the figures thing, even before I got into the industry. It soon became apparent that products need to be listened to.

And I never did buy the Technics system.

 

[davidf]

I understand. You seem allergic to anything that would improve your knowledge.
That´s why you dislike ASR so much, I guess.

You can project all you like, but I've already stated why I dislike them. The Emperor gives his thumbs up/thumbs down, and either it's all nicey nicey, or it's a witch hunt. There's a lot of hatred over there, all fuelled by their leader. And anyone who dares speak up are pummelled by the sheep that follow him, being treated like the products that don't measure up. It's a toxic place to spend time, and I have no time for it.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I understand. You seem allergic to anything that would improve your knowledge.
That´s why you dislike ASR so much, I guess.

Let's not get personal. Forum rules apply in full from now on.

 

[Angle Poise-Lamp]

I didn't watch the video at all.

Neither did I.

I understand. You seem allergic to anything that would improve your knowledge.
That´s why you dislike ASR so much, I guess.

Like all social media, damned if I’m going to waste my time trawling through it, YouTube is not somewhere I would go to expand my knowledge.

Too many people adding content just to get views, so they make money. I’m damned if I’m going to waste my time trawling through the endless tripe, to try and find something useful. There are also a vast amount of self-opinionated knobheads on YouTube, talking rubbish and presenting it as fact.

 

[Dave_]

I’m damned if I’m going to waste my time trawling through the endless tripe, to try and find something useful. There are also a vast amount of self-opinionated knobheads on YouTube, talking rubbish and presenting it as fact.

Yet you're happy to post on here multiple times a day

 

[Angle Poise-Lamp]

Yet you're happy to post on here multiple times a day

Sometimes I post a lot, sometimes I go for days without posting, if nothing grabs my attention. Also, forums are different, nobody is getting paid for clicks, when they post.

 

[woodbar]

And I never did buy the Technics system

Probably wise - a bit overpriced I always thought

 

[woodbar]

nobody is getting paid for clicks, when they post

Really? I was expecting a cheque in the post - have I been misled? 😎 😀

 

[Dave_]

Sometimes I post a lot, sometimes I go for days without posting, if nothing grabs my attention. Also, forums are different, nobody is getting paid for clicks, when they post.

Future does. The only difference between here and YT is they share revenue with those that post content.