General Hi-Fi post - social media

[davidf]

I read a lot of threads on this forum, and other forums, and some Facebook groups as well, and I feel that there are many forces out there trying to set the ground rules. Or should I say, the ground rules they want to set.

Our hearing is a very complex instrument, and many seem to underplay its capabilities. If you go back far enough, it's the main sense related to survival - that was honed over millions of years. Some animals survive on it - that's evolution. When people try to put a restriction on what we can hear - when we still can't likely measure what our hearing is capable of - I get suspicious. The greatest spoiler of anything is imposing restrictions. If we don't know how to properly measure human hearing (or aren't capable of doing so), how can we state the restrictions of human hearing?

People will tell you - based on what they've read - what you can and cannot hear. That then restricts what you think you can hear - and then you're doomed to follow that imposed path.

And when someone speaks up about hearing some difference (related to anything), they're pounced upon by those who follow what they've been told they can or cannot hear. There's always cable debates, and while I'm fully aware of placebo effect etc, I know the differences I've heard over the last (almost) 40 years.

And that another thing. Battering older folk with the notion that they're losing their hearing is also imposing mental restrictions. Sure, some people might lose their higher frequency capabilities, but that doesn't mean they cannot hear differences between products - differences aren't restricted to a narrow frequency range. I've lost count of the people I've dealt with who have stated that their hearing isn't what it once was (fair enough), and they seem to feel that's hugely restrictive. To a point, yes, but it doesn't mean you cannot hear differences. Out hearing covers about 20kHz - and let's ignore how harmonics can potentially affect what we hear for now - and even if our hearing restricts that, there's still plenty at play.

So when someone tells you your hearing won't allow you to hear a difference, or that science states there's no measurable difference, don't automatically believe them, or that you're not going to hear a difference. Just because science can't measure a difference between two products, don't necessarily believe there isn't a difference to experience.

 

[Jasonovich]

I think it's human nature to set some parameters using science as a mechanism for their rationality, it invites and encourages consensus.

The flipside, it turns into a dogma and people not wishing to be subjugated to ridicule follow the herd.

From my own, personal perspective, I struggle with this, beautiful graphs don't necessarily mean beautiful music.
If you love what you hear, surely that's the only qualification you need?

 

[Kenneth Fernandes]

Such a great post! 🤩😁

But what has nature got to do with humans listening to Hi-end music at home from exquisitely human-produced instruments and vocals (especially White Female vocals), it's for us humans to experience Studio recorded Hi-end soundtracks all the time, isn't it? Even parrots and cats dance and sync to music when played in the living room, as I saw on TikTok and other YouTube videos of pet owners.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Feel free to disagree with the OP, but personal comments will be deleted, as per forum rules.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

(Abusive language deleted by moderation.)

 

[davidf]

Feel free to disagree with the OP, but personal comments will be deleted, as per forum rules.

Awww, what did I miss out on?! 😆

 

[Jasonovich]

I think there's a tendency to confuse euphoria with placebo.

When you make love to your girlfriend for the first time or if it is your first time, your senses are overloaded and presto, the magician pulls out euphoria from the rabbit hat.
The next one, not so much as the first.

I think it's the same with music, you upgrade your amp, you hear all the supple differences, suddenly the sound stage is a mile long, vocals are crisper and more defined, bingo, euphoria!

After continuous listening, familiarity sets in and this becomes defacto. Your audio benchmark from hereon.
This is my hypothesis, this is how or why it is confused with placebo.

 

[Gray]

I read a lot of threads on this forum, and other forums, and some Facebook groups as well, and I feel that there are many forces out there trying to set the ground rules. Or should I say, the ground rules they want to set.

Our hearing is a very complex instrument, and many seem to underplay its capabilities. If you go back far enough, it's the main sense related to survival - that was honed over millions of years. Some animals survive on it - that's evolution. When people try to put a restriction on what we can hear - when we still can't likely measure what our hearing is capable of - I get suspicious. The greatest spoiler of anything is imposing restrictions. If we don't know how to properly measure human hearing (or aren't capable of doing so), how can we state the restrictions of human hearing?

People will tell you - based on what they've read - what you can and cannot hear. That then restricts what you think you can hear - and then you're doomed to follow that imposed path.

And when someone speaks up about hearing some difference (related to anything), they're pounced upon by those who follow what they've been told they can or cannot hear. There's always cable debates, and while I'm fully aware of placebo effect etc, I know the differences I've heard over the last (almost) 40 years.

And that another thing. Battering older folk with the notion that they're losing their hearing is also imposing mental restrictions. Sure, some people might lose their higher frequency capabilities, but that doesn't mean they cannot hear differences between products - differences aren't restricted to a narrow frequency range. I've lost count of the people I've dealt with who have stated that their hearing isn't what it once was (fair enough), and they seem to feel that's hugely restrictive. To a point, yes, but it doesn't mean you cannot hear differences. Out hearing covers about 20kHz - and let's ignore how harmonics can potentially affect what we hear for now - and even if our hearing restricts that, there's still plenty at play.

So when someone tells you your hearing won't allow you to hear a difference, or that science states there's no measurable difference, don't automatically believe them, or that you're not going to hear a difference. Just because science can't measure a difference between two products, don't necessarily believe there isn't a difference to experience.

It's all very simple David, if rather boring.
If somebody can blindly identify the differences they describe / feel / imagine, then who could argue with them? - certainly not me.
Why do people dismiss the idea of blind testing, (as they always seem to) - if only to prove that they're not fooling themselves?

People will always be influenced by what they're looking at....and the cost of what they're looking at.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

If somebody can blindly identify the differences they describe / feel / imagine, then who could argue with them? - certainly not me.

It does seem something of an own goal by cable manufacturers that none have taken up this challenge - to the best of my knowledge at least. I have heard the reason/excuse (delete as applicable) that it would be too stressful, but most jobs involve some degree of stress. Employ more psychologically robust testers if that's the case.

 

[Jasonovich]

It does seem something of an own goal by cable manufacturers that none have taken up this challenge - to the best of my knowledge at least. I have heard the reason/excuse (delete as applicable) that it would be too stressful, but most jobs involve some degree of stress. Employ more psychologically robust testers if that's the case.

It'll be nice if they had an independent speaker/interconnects cable advisory body, an entity with charitable status.

They'll have an impartial grading system, as @Gray was alluding to, a panel of listeners from which various cables are benchmarked against each other and their findings published online.
Listeners with trained ears would be invited to listen open and blind, make their conclusions without prejudice.

If they all come to the same conclusion, there's absolutely no difference, then every body will be buying Amazing Basics. I understand the cable industry reluctance.
It is naive to think this will ever happen.

I hear differences in tonality between multi thin strands and solid core, but it is not night and day. Mixture of both, possibly the best compromise.

Change your amp, change your speakers or placing your system in a treated room will have an obvious affect on the sound quality.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

Awww, what did I miss out on?! 😆

I confess, it was me, twice.
I said
1st time: you don´t understand the science or want too fool people (you trade in hi-fi, correct?)

After that was removed as being offensive, I tried again and said:

OPs post is very much rubbish (worded differently).

There, you´re all up to date!

 

[Revolutions]

It does seem something of an own goal by cable manufacturers that none have taken up this challenge - to the best of my knowledge at least. I have heard the reason/excuse (delete as applicable) that it would be too stressful, but most jobs involve some degree of stress. Employ more psychologically robust testers if that's the case.

We know why cable manufacturers won't run blind tests. Excuse me if I'm repeating something from the other thread - social experiments need to have three facets to succeed: observable, measurable & most importantly repeatable.

I'm not a social scientist but I'd put a fair bet down that most blind tests to do with audio full-stop, not even specifically cable swaps, would end up with a variation that's essentially the same as random luck. No one is going to want to point out that customers preferred the £3k cable over the £30 cable on the equivalent of a coin toss.

 

[abacus]

I have been into music for ages and have also tried various cables over the years, and yes I have heard many difference's between them, however as I mentioned in another thread, biological life forms senses are easily fooled, therefore when I do hear a difference I then do a double blind test (I listen to whole songs (Not snippets between the 2) in a relaxed environment), and every single time all difference's disappear (I.E differences' average 50-50), so I don't let it worry me.
On the other hand I don't like to see opinions paraded as fact, which is why I always point out that an opinion is just an opinion, and unless verifiable evidence is provided, it always will be.

Bill

 

[davidf]

I confess, it was me, twice.
I said
1st time: you don´t understand the science or want too fool people (you trade in hi-fi, correct?)

After that was removed as being offensive, I tried again and said:

OPs post is very much rubbish (worded differently).

There, you´re all up to date!

Thanks, and of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

Why would I want to fool people? If one finds out, blows the whistle, my business is gone. If you're honest, nothing negative can be unearthed. The only things I say differently now compared to 20 odd years ago on social media is where I've learned something new - most of my advice is exactly the same, as was proven on here last year when someone quoted one of my posts from about 10 years ago or more. When I read it, I thought I'd written it a few days before. I'd have phrased a few things slightly differently, but the advice was bang on. I don't change to suit any agendas.

 

[woodbar]

I read a lot of threads on this forum, and other forums, and some Facebook groups as well, and I feel that there are many forces out there trying to set the ground rules. Or should I say, the ground rules they want to set.

Our hearing is a very complex instrument, and many seem to underplay its capabilities. If you go back far enough, it's the main sense related to survival - that was honed over millions of years. Some animals survive on it - that's evolution. When people try to put a restriction on what we can hear - when we still can't likely measure what our hearing is capable of - I get suspicious. The greatest spoiler of anything is imposing restrictions. If we don't know how to properly measure human hearing (or aren't capable of doing so), how can we state the restrictions of human hearing?

People will tell you - based on what they've read - what you can and cannot hear. That then restricts what you think you can hear - and then you're doomed to follow that imposed path.

And when someone speaks up about hearing some difference (related to anything), they're pounced upon by those who follow what they've been told they can or cannot hear. There's always cable debates, and while I'm fully aware of placebo effect etc, I know the differences I've heard over the last (almost) 40 years.

And that another thing. Battering older folk with the notion that they're losing their hearing is also imposing mental restrictions. Sure, some people might lose their higher frequency capabilities, but that doesn't mean they cannot hear differences between products - differences aren't restricted to a narrow frequency range. I've lost count of the people I've dealt with who have stated that their hearing isn't what it once was (fair enough), and they seem to feel that's hugely restrictive. To a point, yes, but it doesn't mean you cannot hear differences. Out hearing covers about 20kHz - and let's ignore how harmonics can potentially affect what we hear for now - and even if our hearing restricts that, there's still plenty at play.

So when someone tells you your hearing won't allow you to hear a difference, or that science states there's no measurable difference, don't automatically believe them, or that you're not going to hear a difference. Just because science can't measure a difference between two products, don't necessarily believe there isn't a difference to experience.

Only just found this page and I totally agree with you (from someone who has age related hearing loss!)

From your 4th paragraph I suspect you to have experienced ASR or similar?

 

[woodbar]

I think there's a tendency to confuse euphoria with placebo.

When you make love to your girlfriend for the first time or if it is your first time, your senses are overloaded and presto, the magician pulls out euphoria from the rabbit hat.
The next one, not so much as the first.

I think it's the same with music, you upgrade your amp, you hear all the supple differences, suddenly the sound stage is a mile long, vocals are crisper and more defined, bingo, euphoria!

After continuous listening, familiarity sets in and this becomes defacto. Your audio benchmark from hereon.
This is my hypothesis, this is how or why it is confused with placebo.

Blimey, I wondered at first how far you were going with that first example! 😎

Was that the next girlfriend you meant?

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

Thanks, and of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

Why would I want to fool people? If one finds out, blows the whistle, my business is gone. If you're honest, nothing negative can be unearthed. The only things I say differently now compared to 20 odd years ago on social media is where I've learned something new - most of my advice is exactly the same, as was proven on here last year when someone quoted one of my posts from about 10 years ago or more. When I read it, I thought I'd written it a few days before. I'd have phrased a few things slightly differently, but the advice was bang on. I don't change to suit any agendas.

I need to clarify:
I didn´t mean to say you deceive people on purpose for a living.
Apologies if that is how you (or the moderator) understood my words.

What I do mean is (and because I also have some business understanding):

In the business of high-end hi-fi (what also applies to many other types of high-end retail businesses), is that a certain image, a certain undefined magic, presented through the products you are selling and how you display them, is part of the experience.
Special products for special people.
In such a world, measurements indeed do not matter much. Not to you, not to your customers.
It´s all about reputation, looks, price (more expensive = better), people being in the know, that kind of stuff.

I can imagine that for you, and what´s important in the relation with your customers is:
- Don´t mind the measurements, mind the experience. Trust your ears and the mood I´m creating for you.

But for me, a simple peasant, knowing that independent measurements confirms the manufacturer specifications, is already important.

 

[davidf]

I need to clarify:
I didn´t mean to say you deceive people on purpose for a living.
Apologies if that is how you (or the moderator) understood my words.

What I do mean is (and because I also have some business understanding):

In the business of high-end hi-fi (what also applies to many other types of high-end retail businesses), is that a certain image, a certain undefined magic, presented through the products you are selling and how you display them, is part of the experience.
Special products for special people.
In such a world, measurements indeed do not matter much. Not to you, not to your customers.
It´s all about reputation, looks, price (more expensive = better), people being in the know, that kind of stuff.

But for me, a simple peasant, knowing that independent measurements confirms the manufacturer specifications, is already important.

Not sure whether you mean anything bad by "special people". And this isn't about looking or sounding posh.

More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better. Something more expensive might sound better, it might sound no better, or even worse. It will likely be built better, but I've seen some high-end equipment not built to the sort of standards I'd expect. I don't mind that if the product sounds stunning, and makes an extremely good case for itself in comparisons to others. I do think some high-end kit is 'over-built'. Ridiculous amounts of metalwork that brings zero benefit other than for looks.

I feel I have a duty to undertake a bit of research on the part of those who take some time to come and see me. I want to weed out some of the above in order to help make some visitor's decisions easier. If I don't like a brand for whatever reason, I'll say so (if asked), and state my reasons why. That's just my opinion. The visitor might love that brand, and that's a valid opinion and I'm not going to argue against it. If there are any negatives related to what I offer, I'll state them, I'm not going to hide them and hope someone doesn't notice. But I try and avoid all that beforehand in choosing what I deal with.

 

[davidf]

Only just found this page and I totally agree with you (from someone who has age related hearing loss!)

From your 4th paragraph I suspect you to have experienced ASR or similar?

Oh I'm well aware of the witch-hunts that the omnipotent one initiates! Seen the fallout. They're the scary ones - zero experience of the product, but ganging up on a product or brand just because Caesar gives the thumbs down.

 

[bigboss]

I need to clarify:
I didn´t mean to say you deceive people on purpose for a living.
Apologies if that is how you (or the moderator) understood my words.

What I do mean is (and because I also have some business understanding):

In the business of high-end hi-fi (what also applies to many other types of high-end retail businesses), is that a certain image, a certain undefined magic, presented through the products you are selling and how you display them, is part of the experience.
Special products for special people.
In such a world, measurements indeed do not matter much. Not to you, not to your customers.
It´s all about reputation, looks, price (more expensive = better), people being in the know, that kind of stuff.

I can imagine that for you, and what´s important in the relation with your customers is:
- Don´t mind the measurements, mind the experience. Trust your ears and the mood I´m creating for you.

But for me, a simple peasant, knowing that independent measurements confirms the manufacturer specifications, is already important.

The world often runs on perception. Just this morning, walking through St. Moritz, I passed showrooms like Louis Vuitton, Miu Miu, and Cartier, and it’s the image and desirability they project that really drives sales. The same applies to much of the perfume industry. The perceived value often far outweighs the actual cost of making the product.

The true value of any product is what you're prepared to pay for, not how much it costs to make. What tickles our sensories more is all that matters.

 

[Entrigo]

Fully agree with the spirit of the OP comment about not putting up barriers, prejudices etc but not sure I can fully agree with the reasoning.

OK the human hearing system is complex, but I believe part of that complexity resides.more in how an external signal is processed by the brain that in the mechanics of the auditory system itself. And of course noone can measure what a person can or can't hear as this is the result of the above processing.

But we can measure sound signals within the frequencies audible by humans. And if these measurements say sound A is identical to sound B, wouldn't it mean that if person C hears differences between the two, these differences are likely to be subjective rather than objective? Ergo result of subconscious biases rather than a reflection of a real difference in sound?

After that, whatever floats one's boat, I am not one to judge..

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

The world often runs on perception. Just this morning, walking through St. Moritz, I passed showrooms like Louis Vuitton, Miu Miu, and Cartier, and it’s the image and desirability they project that really drives sales. The same applies to much of the perfume industry. The perceived value often far outweighs the actual cost of making the product.

The true value of any product is what you're prepared to pay for, not how much it costs to make. What tickles our sensories more is all that matters.

Exactly my point

But what a forum like ASR is about, and specific to audio equipment, is not so much about the perceived or perception of value but the measurable value.
That changed the paradigm of how hi-fi and audio is talked about, specially online

OP seems to have an issue with that.

From his point of view, I kind of understand.
From my point of view, as consumer that loves value for money and does not care so much about the "magic" of hi-fi, such a forum is very much welcome.

 

[davidf]

Exactly my point

But what a forum like ASR is about, and specific to audio equipment, is not so much about the perceived or perception of value but the measurable value.
That changed the paradigm of how hi-fi and audio is talked about, specially online

OP seems to have an issue with that.

From his point of view, I kind of understand.
From my point of view, as consumer that loves value for money and does not care so much about the "magic" of hi-fi, such a forum is very much welcome.

And that would be fine if it presented its findings and subsequent discussion in a mature manner.

Many hi-fi products over the decades haven't always measured as well as they should. Sometimes, in order to produce something to a level they want to achieve, some measurement somewhere goes haywire. It has to be an accepted parameter. But to listen to them, they were obviously special and sounded better than anything else. There could be lots of reasons for an oddball measurement, but a product shouldn't live or die based on it.

 

[Entrigo]

Exactly my point

But what a forum like ASR is about, and specific to audio equipment, is not so much about the perceived or perception of value but the measurable value.
That changed the paradigm of how hi-fi and audio is talked about, specially online

OP seems to have an issue with that.

From his point of view, I kind of understand.
From my point of view, as consumer that loves value for money and does not care so much about the "magic" of hi-fi, such a forum is very much welcome.

Same. Although I don't understand 95% of the things talked about om ASR and normally leave the site after three minutes and with the beginning of a headache haha