FUTURE OF HI-FI

[chebby]

I have lost interest in 'traditional' seperates. Too bulky, too many cables and ugly.

I am an 'old dog' who bought my first hifi 31 years ago and didn't even have a full-time CD player until 2008 (I tried CD players twice - in 1985 and 1996 - but sold both within a few months) it was all LPs and FM radio and cassettes before that.

However, I am enjoying some of the new tricks. (It all started with a Fubar USB DAC about three years ago.) I now love being able to play my iTunes/iPlayer/internet radio all wirelessly from my iPhone with AirPlay. I love having one small (relatively) elegant box containing all the system's electronics (compared to the four boxes previously).

I last played a CD in March (to ensure the player in the new M-CR603 worked).

It's not all going to stop there. I am wondering whether something like the B&W Zeppelin Air or the Geneva Lab Model M* could eventually fulfill my music requirements.

(I would seriously audition the Geneva lab Model M right now if it had AirPlay and an optical digital input for the telly!)

So the future of hifi - for me - is still less, smaller and smarter.

*Yes I have this month's issue.

 

[Anonymous]

I have lost interest in 'traditional' seperates. Too bulky, too many cables and ugly.

I am an 'old dog' who bought my first hifi 31 years ago and didn't even have a full-time CD player until 2008 (I tried CD players twice - in 1985 and 1996 - but sold both within a few months) it was all LPs and FM radio and cassettes before that.

However, I am enjoying some of the new tricks. (It all started with a Fubar USB DAC about three years ago.) I now love being able to play my iTunes/iPlayer/internet radio all wirelessly from my iPhone with AirPlay. I love having one small (relatively) elegant box containing all the system's electronics (compared to the four boxes previously).

I last played a CD in March (to ensure the player in the new M-CR603 worked).

It's not all going to stop there. I am wondering whether something like the B&W Zeppelin Air or the Geneva Lab Model M* could eventually fulfill my music requirements.

(I would seriously audition the Geneva lab Model M right now if it had AirPlay and an optical digital input for the telly!)

So the future of hifi - for me - is still less, smaller and smarter.

*Yes I have this month's issue.

I like your post Chebby, I think minimal is defiantly the way to go. With something like the Geneva lab do you not think you might maybe miss the Stereo image?

 

[Anonymous]

Blimey, just had a look at the Geneva web site. Have you seen the XXL version?

 

[chebby]

Blimey, just had a look at the Geneva web site. Have you seen the XXL version?

Yes. Too big.

The Model M should be about the right size for listening across the 14ft width of our living room from about 8ft (seated) distance with the 'neighbour friendly' levels of volume I enjoy.

 

[manicm]

The problem is that music is dying.

When there'll be no more music, there'll be no more hi-fi.

P.S.: I'm talking about good music. Trash top hits blockbuster music always existed and will continue to exist of course.

I don't agree with this at all. As a child of the 60's I was raised on Miles Davis, Genesis, Floyd, Sabbath, Hawkwind, Zappa etc, together with punk, new wave and electronic stuff. Ever since I have been discovering fantastic new (and old) music by all sorts of brilliant artists and it continues to this day. Have you ever read Uncut magazine? Covers what you and I would probably describe as good music.

Currently listening to: Thin Lizzy - Jailbreak

Uncut magazine seems now to solely focus on Americana and not much else. Its focus seems to have narrowed. It's still a good mag. But quality control is a bit down. Like Word - used to be excellent but the editorials are becoming dogmatic, idiotic, and musically/technologically reactionary.

 

[Anonymous]

The problem is that music is dying

Several posters have disagreed with this, but if I were to slightly rephase this to "the environments for listening to music are dying" would you still do so?

For most of history, the world was pretty silent by modern standards: the most the Esterhazy family would have heard while their court musicians were playing Bach or Beethoven would have been the occasional lowing of cows. Making noise involved expending physical energy, so you didn't do it unless you had to.

I think once there was a universal power grid, so any moron could make as much noise as they pleased without lifting a finger, music was bound to shift to something that people used to drown out other people's noise rather than listen to for its own sake.

It's a fact http://read.bi/e1wOFx that music buying (measured in per-capita expenditure) peaked in the mid-late 70s, when people abandoned vinyl for cassette — CD didn't even exist then — to go portable and to create mix tapes. When vinyl junkies start a sermon, it's worth pointing out the public abandoned LPs for inferior analogue before digital ever appeared...

I think this was about the point that the deadly phrase "today's busy lifestyles" started to crop up in advertising. It was certainly the point that the classic album genres were replaced by forms of music (punk, hip-hop) that didn't need quality reproduction — if indeed the noise, rather than the number of TV outrages or drive-bys the performers had been involved in, was what was driving sales in the first place.

I also think this explains something else. It's fairly easy to show that a Full HD TV at normal viewing distances is effectively analogue, in the sense the eye can't distinguish individual pixels, so the picture is solid. It's equally easy to show that 16/44.1 digital sound is well below the equivalent aural threshold around 20/192kHz.

Yet HD Video is selling, while HD Audio isn't and largely isn't even being tried: people have to focus to watch a moving image, so hitting the limits of visual resolution sells, but sound is background, so the equivalent increase in resolution doesn't.

Hence to return to the topic of this thread, HiFi Sound appears to have less future than HiFi Vision.

Ditto.

Good music is still around, but it's not as "visible" as I (we?) would like it to be.

You have to try, randomly download some torrents of some unknown artist and discover some talent, some good ideas, among all the junk that floats around the 'net.

The problems are but the listeners.

Musicians are to follow people tastes, the trend of the moment, most can't afford to fully express themselves.

*wears the medieval heavy plate mail and gets in the arena*

Lady GaGa, the popstar of the moment.

Yes, I'm talking about her.

She has a natural talent as both musician and singer.

I've heard and seen on the 'tube some live performances and I've been blown away.

Why is she wasting such talent with commercial pop? Why doesn't she try to get out of the trend and start expressing herself without concerning what people may think?

You all know why.

Linkin Park.

Their last album has been literally butchered by the fans and the critics.

Why?

Because they developed their own style, they felt mature enough to get away form the mainstream market and express themselves.

You can read it in the preface of the booklet of their "A Thousand Suns".

I love that album, it is so inspired and, while being a bit experimental, I just keep coming back to pieces like Robot Boy.

What will they do now?

Will they continue on their path or will they come back to the nu metal style to please the fans?

If they want to survive as a band, probably the latter.

This is what I mean by "the music is dying".

Maybe I should reformulate the sentence like "people are killing the music".

Everything is strongly IMHO, experiences may vary and I'm open to good debate.

P.S.: more about following people's tastes and needs can be found in the infamous "loudness war", just to stay in topic about what's the future of hi-fi.

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. Class A sounds best, but won't be seen as "green" enough for the future, and like leaded petrol, will be phased out. Cno

Following the rules of evolution - survival of the fittest, are change and innovation sounding the death knell of conventional HI-Fi as we have known it?

So what if it does? Conventions change, 100 years ago it was convention to have a man walking in front of your car waving a red flag, does that mean conventional motoring as we know it is dead? So what if the CD player dies? Who cares, streaming systems will be mature in a few years and nobody will be questioning their use and they don't preclude the use of exactly the same pre-amps, amps and speakers as people are using now.

Give it thirty years you'll walk into your living room, say "Random selection - Play" and the room will be filled with music and you'll have no idea where it's coming from and you won't care because it'll sound incredible.

And that will be normal. Conventional Hi-Fi will die, in as much as having an amazing sounding system will no longer be a matter of choice or cost, it'll just be normal, storage will be dirt cheap, so lossless, high bitrate files (better than CD) will be standard, materials advances will mean flat, invisible speakers (in wall, in ceiling, whatever) will be so faithful there won't be any point in having floorstanders or any other "conventional" speaker as there'll be no improvement in sound quality from them, amplification will be hidden, the living room will become somewhere to sit again, rather than an equipment store.

You could do all this now, but there will be an impact on sound quality. Given time, there won't be.

Ultimately it doesn't matter in the least.....except to me (and not just me).
The thread was about the future, so the "green" comment was only pertinent to that.

Tube amps date back to Leak's "Point One" series introduced in 1945, and in my purely subjective opinion, 66 years on, simple SET amps still sound the most musical, despite all modern advances.

There's no doubt that things will be very different in 30 years time, but it would be a shame if musicality (subjective) was lost in the stampede......which of course, it may not.

 

[Anonymous]

Donluca Hi, I'm not sure I agree with your stance on music. I think good music is more accessible than ever. Particularly with the likes of Spotify and the friends / related artists function. One really doesn't have to delve deep at all to find blistering tracks and in particular from lesser well known acts. I think were are entering a period of music where the industry isn't ruled by a couple of great bands. the very fact that you can mention an album and I can hear it thirty seconds later is incredible. Fantastic music is everywhere, it's just a case of here comes everyone.

 

[CnoEvil]

P.S.: I'm talking about good music. Trash top hits blockbuster music always existed and will continue to exist of course.

Every generation thinks that the music of the previous generation is trash. Elvis and R&R were going to be the ruination of the youth, and even some of the great classical composers were seen as too radical in their day! 🙂

 

[steve_1979]

just to stay in topic about what's the future of hi-fi.

I think it might become common to have a small touchscreen interface and a pair of active/powered speakers. The touchscreen interface will have it's own built in memory for music storage and will act as a DAC and preamp for the speakers. It will also be able to connect wirelessly to the internet and any other AV equiptment you have.

Imagine somthing similar to a Squeezebox Touch partnered with active speakers.

 

[Lee H]

Donluca Hi, I'm not sure I agree with your stance on music. I think good music is more accessible than ever. Particularly with the likes of Spotify and the friends / related artists function. One really doesn't have to delve deep at all to find blistering tracks and in particular from lesser well known acts. I think were are entering a period of music where the industry isn't ruled by a couple of great bands. the very fact that you can mention an album and I can hear it thirty seconds later is incredible. Fantastic music is everywhere, it's just a case of here comes everyone.

Totally agree. I've discovered more over the last few years thanks to Last FM than ever before. Now with Spotify, I can cache it on my phone and have a listen in the car or whilst out and about. When we have friends round and there's music on and someone says, "oh, you should try <insert artist> I think you'd like it" then I can have them playing in seconds.

Any-hoo, this is about the future. I think the future is...virtual... based. Whether that's cloud, NAS or other I think is yet to be defined. This doesn't mean the death of current formats though. Many thought the car would be the death of the horse. Whilst true as a mode of transport, the horse remains with us a leisure pursuit and I think vinyl and disc based (CD/SACD/BD) will remain the same way.

 

[daveloc]

[...] disses punk and hip-hop [...]

Ah, snobbery, you can't beat it

Heh, when "Anarchy in the UK" came out I was a working-class teenager in my first (badly paid) job. I should have been in the core market for punk (except maybe I washed too often, and could speak English proper innit?) I just didn't like it, or anything related to it, then or now — "Wind and Wuthering" is playing as I type.

Taste isn't snobbery: I've even owned stuff by The Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy, Black Eyed Peas, and Gnarls Barkley, but I just prefer a tune to a beat...

Music changes, technology changes, nothing changes.

...and the Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle is still running too (current ringmaster S. Cowell), and like all the best long cons, the victims still don't understand they've been had.

For me 26th November 1976 is still The Day The Music Died. I notice you don't answer my real point, that these genre changes coincided with music sales falling off a cliff and never recovering — CD sales were largely people rebuying their LP collections; the absence of an equivalent download boom (because people rip the CDs instead rather than buy new music) confirms it.

HiFi Music only has a future if there's music worth playing in HiFi.

 

[The_Lhc]

[...] disses punk and hip-hop [...]

Ah, snobbery, you can't beat it

Heh, when "Anarchy in the UK" came out I was a working-class teenager in my first (badly paid) job. I should have been in the core market for punk (except maybe I washed too often, and could speak English proper innit?) I just didn't like it, or anything related to it, then or now

And neither do I.

— "Wind and Wuthering" is playing as I type.

Never heard of it.

Taste isn't snobbery:

No, but actively dismissing stuff as not worthy just because YOU don't like it, is.

I've even owned stuff by ... Black Eyed Peas,

For the love of dog man, why? And before anybody picks me up for being a hypocrite, the Black Eyed Peas are not hip-hop and even if they were every genre has it's share of dross, even 70s rock...

and Gnarls Barkley, but I just prefer a tune to a beat...

There's loads of tunes on the Gnarls Barkley album. Well there's at least one at any rate...

Music changes, technology changes, nothing changes.

...and the Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle is still running too (current ringmaster S. Cowell), and like all the best long cons, the victims still don't understand they've been had.

Of course they know, have you never noticed how almost every X-Factor winner has one big song and then disappears off the face of the Earth? The public are only interested in the competition, they don't actually care what comes out of it at the other end.

For me 26th November 1976 is still The Day The Music Died. I notice you don't answer my real point, that these genre changes coincided with music sales falling off a cliff and never recovering — CD sales were largely people rebuying their LP collections; the absence of an equivalent download boom (because people rip the CDs instead rather than buy new music)

That last point doesn't make any sense at all, if people are ripping CDs then they've bought the CD in the first place. That would only affect the sales of older material (why download an album from the 90s when you can just rip it?), it won't affect new releases, if people are not buying new releases on CD they're downloading it, either legally or otherwise (which is the real reason sales have dipped, if you believe the music industry). Album sales may have dropped but that's simply because people don't see the need to buy an entire album any more and they don't have to.

confirms it.

The entire face of musical reproduction technology and distribution has changed out of all recognition over the last 40 years but the drop in album sales is because nobody makes 70s rock music any more? Okey dokey!

HiFi Music only has a future if there's music worth playing in HiFi.

And only you get to decide what that is? Right-ho!

 

[Lee H]

Of course they know, have you never noticed how almost every X-Factor winner has one big song and then disappears off the face of the Earth? The public are only interested in the competition, they don't actually care what comes out of it at the other end.

Oh that's just not true. There was... thingy, oh what was her name. And then there was... you know, with the sideburns. Ah, maybe you're right

 

[Anonymous]

— "Wind and Wuthering" is playing as I type.

Never heard of it.

I think he's referring to the Genesis album; you might have heard of them, no?

And I don't subscribe to the future doom and gloom displayed here. Pop music has been on a sliding scale ever since The Beatles; it hasn't stopped real artists from making good music up to now, I don't believe it will stop real artists from now on -- especially with Last.FM and Spotify trying to gain a legal foothold in spite of the industry's efforts.

And given that most pop/rock albums are already butchered beyond belief (DonLuca already mentioned the loudness war), I don't think album quality will deteriorate if bands start mixing and producing their own work. In any case, they can always hire a professional for a remaster once an album does take off.

 

[The_Lhc]

— "Wind and Wuthering" is playing as I type.

Never heard of it.

I think he's referring to the Genesis album; you might have heard of them, no?

Of them, yes, know the names of any of their albums, no.

And I don't subscribe to the future doom and gloom displayed here. Pop music has been on a sliding scale ever since The Beatles; it hasn't stopped real artists from making good music up to now, I don't believe it will stop real artists from now on -- especially with Last.FM and Spotify trying to gain a legal foothold in spite of the industry's efforts.

And given that most pop/rock albums are already butchered beyond belief (DonLuca already mentioned the loudness war), I don't think album quality will deteriorate if bands start mixing and producing their own work. In any case, they can always hire a professional for a remaster once an album does take off.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[steve_1979]

materials advances will mean flat, invisible speakers (in wall, in ceiling, whatever) will be so faithful there won't be any point in having floorstanders or any other "conventional" speaker as there'll be no improvement in sound quality from them, amplification will be hidden, the living room will become somewhere to sit again, rather than an equipment store.You could do all this now, but there will be an impact on sound quality. Given time, there won't be.

I agree that style speakers, small sub/sat speakers and flat wall mounted speakers are becoming more and more common all the time. The sound quality of them is constantly improving too and the gap between style and conventional speakers is getting smaller.

However I think there will always be a place for large conventional box speakers though. You can only go so far with a flat wall mounted speaker or small style speaker before the laws of physics start getting in the way. At the end of the day a speaker with a conventional shaped enclosure and a large volume just works better. Unless somebody invents a radically new type of speaker design this will probably always be the way.

In the future the most people may well use some sort of advanced 'style' speaker but large conventional speakers will always be available for the few people who think that sound quality is more important than athetics.

 

[The_Lhc]

materials advances will mean flat, invisible speakers (in wall, in ceiling, whatever) will be so faithful there won't be any point in having floorstanders or any other "conventional" speaker as there'll be no improvement in sound quality from them, amplification will be hidden, the living room will become somewhere to sit again, rather than an equipment store.

You could do all this now, but there will be an impact on sound quality. Given time, there won't be.

I agree that style speakers, small sub/sat speakers and flat wall mounted speakers are becoming more and more common all the time. The sound quality of them is constantly improving too and the gap between style and conventional speakers is getting smaller. However I think there will always be a place for large conventional box speakers though. You can only go so far with a flat wall mounted speaker or small style speaker before the laws of physics start getting in the way. At the end of the day a speaker with a conventional shaped enclosure and a large volume just works better. Unless somebody invents a radically new type of speaker design this will probably always be the way.

That's exactly what I'm talking about (which is why I picked 30 years and not ten, for example). Sooner or later there WILL be a breakthrough that means you don't need a big box to accurately reproduce all frequencies.

In the future the most people may well use some sort of advanced 'style' speaker but large conventional speakers will always be available for the few people who think that sound quality is more important than athetics.

Not if the new technology is better than a conventional speaker.

 

[hammill]

That's exactly what I'm talking about (which is why I picked 30 years and not ten, for example). Sooner or later there WILL be a breakthrough that means you don't need a big box to accurately reproduce all frequencies.

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics!"

 

[chebby]

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics!"

The laws of physics can be changed, but that is unlikely to happen as a result of research in the home entertainment industry.

 

[daveloc]

Sooner or later there WILL be a breakthrough that means you don't need a big box to accurately reproduce all frequencies.

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics!"

I thought changing the laws of physics was exactly what The LHC was created to do ;-)

 

[steve_1979]

That's exactly what I'm talking about (which is why I picked 30 years and not ten, for example). Sooner or later there WILL be a breakthrough that means you don't need a big box to accurately reproduce all frequencies

I hope your right there, but speakers haven't changed very much for over a century. There's been constant improvements and evolution of technologies and materials but there hasn't been any fundemental breakthrough or change in the way they actually work. Apart from a few exceptions they all still work by using an electromagnet to move a speaker cone (or something similar) which vibrates the air. If this fundemental basic concept hasn't changed for a hundred years then it's not all that likey that something radically new will emerge in the next couple of decades.

I do hope that I'm proved wrong though.

 

[The_Lhc]

That's exactly what I'm talking about (which is why I picked 30 years and not ten, for example). Sooner or later there WILL be a breakthrough that means you don't need a big box to accurately reproduce all frequencies

I hope your right there, but speakers haven't changed very much for over a century. There's been constant improvements and evolution of technologies and materials but there hasn't been any fundemental breakthrough or change in the way they actually work. Apart from a few exceptions

Which is exactly where I'd be focusing my research.

Anyway, if scientists worked on the assumption that "there's never been a breakthrough in this field, so there never will be" we'd be having this conversation by scrawling it on a cave wall...

 

[The_Lhc]

That's exactly what I'm talking about (which is why I picked 30 years and not ten, for example). Sooner or later there WILL be a breakthrough that means you don't need a big box to accurately reproduce all frequencies.

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics!"

You don't need to, you just need to find another method for shifting the air.

 

[The_Lhc]

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics!"

The laws of physics can be changed,

No, the underlying laws of physics are immutable. We just haven't figured out what they are exactly yet, so our definitions may well change.