On this topic I have B&W DM 603 S2 & B&W HTM 62 & B&W 686 & M&K sub set in my Denon 3802 to small & a cross over to 100HZ, I played around small, large, crossover etc. & found this to my best liking.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
In situations like yours, even though they're quite bassy speakers, it is surprising sometimes how taking that lower bass away from them can make them sound clearer. Like I said, some people prefer that, some don't, so it's a case of trying it and seeing how things go.
I definetly have different oppinion from some of the comments. This is one of the greatest thing of forums right? To hear different opinions. I have just gone back to the manual of my AVR 280 and here is what it says:
Large speaker is one that is capable of handling a full range signal (20hz-20kz)
Small speaker is one that is not capable of reproducing a deep bass signal (i.e. below 100hz).
If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency. Even for movies, the cinemas do not have subwoofers, because they have full frequency speakers and it is a much more natural sound as it comes evenly from all the speakers.
If I were to put my speakers as small and leave all the bass weight on the sub, I would buy small satellites. Definetely I would not spend money on large floorstanders or expensive bookshelf to only make use of 80 % of the speaker.
Again, that is my opinion anyway. Cheers.
Large speaker is one that is capable of handling a full range signal (20hz-20kz)
Small speaker is one that is not capable of reproducing a deep bass signal (i.e. below 100hz).
If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency. Even for movies, the cinemas do not have subwoofers, because they have full frequency speakers and it is a much more natural sound as it comes evenly from all the speakers.
If I were to put my speakers as small and leave all the bass weight on the sub, I would buy small satellites. Definetely I would not spend money on large floorstanders or expensive bookshelf to only make use of 80 % of the speaker.
Again, that is my opinion anyway. Cheers.
ive had mine all set to small since last night david , and now i can see exactly why thats the way to go , ive had to turn the volume up to compensate , but in loud action scenes their is more detail , more clarity , and still plenty of bass from the sub when needed , before when i had them all set to large , louder scenes were more muddled and boomy , but now they are much clearer /better
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
The only problem there is that there are very few, if any, speakers that can reproduce 20Hz to a decently audible level when they're producing so many other frequencies at the same time. This is where subs come in - they're designed to produce the notes that speakers can't reproduce efficiently. You'd need a seriously large speaker to reproduce 20Hz! KEF Reference 207/2's with 2 10" bass drivers each won't give you that!
(and I'm well aware you're more likely to feel than hear 20Hz - in which case, most speakers can't reproduce enough cone movement to shake the room at 20Hz)
(and I'm well aware you're more likely to feel than hear 20Hz - in which case, most speakers can't reproduce enough cone movement to shake the room at 20Hz)
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
maxflinn:ive had mine all set to small since last night david , and now i can see exactly why thats the way to go , ive had to turn the volume up to compensate , but in loud action scenes their is more detail , more clarity , and still plenty of bass from the sub when needed , before when i had them all set to large , louder scenes were more muddled and boomy , but now they are much clearer /better
Glad someone has benefitted - enjoy!
Glad someone has benefitted - enjoy!
The_Lhc
Well-known member
rendu:If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency.
I'm reasonably certain that, as far as AV amps are concerned, the "large"/"small" and crossover settings are ONLY used where an LFE channel is present, ie with a 5(or 6 or 7).1 soundtrack, for 2-channel (ie music) these settings are ignored and the full frequency sent to the front speakers, which is why some subs have high level inputs as well, so that they can still be utilised with music. So in actual fact if you have "good expensive speaker"s what you set these settings to, makes no difference to the music reproduction.
That's certainly how it works with my amp at any rate.
I'm reasonably certain that, as far as AV amps are concerned, the "large"/"small" and crossover settings are ONLY used where an LFE channel is present, ie with a 5(or 6 or 7).1 soundtrack, for 2-channel (ie music) these settings are ignored and the full frequency sent to the front speakers, which is why some subs have high level inputs as well, so that they can still be utilised with music. So in actual fact if you have "good expensive speaker"s what you set these settings to, makes no difference to the music reproduction.
That's certainly how it works with my amp at any rate.
rendu:
I definetly have different oppinion from some of the comments. This is one of the greatest thing of forums right? To hear different opinions. I have just gone back to the manual of my AVR 280 and here is what it says:
Large speaker is one that is capable of handling a full range signal (20hz-20kz)
Small speaker is one that is not capable of reproducing a deep bass signal (i.e. below 100hz).
If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency. Even for movies, the cinemas do not have subwoofers, because they have full frequency speakers and it is a much more natural sound as it comes evenly from all the speakers.
If I were to put my speakers as small and leave all the bass weight on the sub, I would buy small satellites. Definetely I would not spend money on large floorstanders or expensive bookshelf to only make use of 80 % of the speaker.
Again, that is my opinion anyway. Cheers.
You are not on your own, what you wrote is exactly what I think too.
I definetly have different oppinion from some of the comments. This is one of the greatest thing of forums right? To hear different opinions. I have just gone back to the manual of my AVR 280 and here is what it says:
Large speaker is one that is capable of handling a full range signal (20hz-20kz)
Small speaker is one that is not capable of reproducing a deep bass signal (i.e. below 100hz).
If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency. Even for movies, the cinemas do not have subwoofers, because they have full frequency speakers and it is a much more natural sound as it comes evenly from all the speakers.
If I were to put my speakers as small and leave all the bass weight on the sub, I would buy small satellites. Definetely I would not spend money on large floorstanders or expensive bookshelf to only make use of 80 % of the speaker.
Again, that is my opinion anyway. Cheers.
You are not on your own, what you wrote is exactly what I think too.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
A full range speaker, by it's very nature, can't replicate correctly movie soundtracks because theyre mastered on sub/sat systems - the two types are very different sounding when it comes to movies, as I've detailed earlier. That's not to say some people will prefer the warmer, softer sound of big hi-fi speakers for their movies, but to achieve accuracy and detail, a sub/sat ystem needs to be used.
There are many people that do use as much of their speaker's frequency range as possible before utilising the sub, which works well as far as blending the two is concerned (it's the best way when setting up a 2.1 hi-fi speaker system). But hi-fi speakers lack the necessary punch in the midrange and upper bass (usually due to being large, ported boxes) to be able to sound like the soundtracks do when they're being mixed in the studio.
There are many people that do use as much of their speaker's frequency range as possible before utilising the sub, which works well as far as blending the two is concerned (it's the best way when setting up a 2.1 hi-fi speaker system). But hi-fi speakers lack the necessary punch in the midrange and upper bass (usually due to being large, ported boxes) to be able to sound like the soundtracks do when they're being mixed in the studio.
I know what you are saying and I am not saying anyone in right or wrong, but I have a sub-sat system in my other room which I use on my X-FI card and with all my speakers set to small, now on this system if I play transformers the film and when the robots are walking around etc all bass seems to be coming from one direction, now if I play the same film on my main system in the front room all speakers set to large, now play the same bit of the film and I can hear bass direction all around the room.
So because I that I like it this way. Everyone to there own.
So because I that I like it this way. Everyone to there own.
the_lhc:
rendu:If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency.
I'm reasonably certain that, as far as AV amps are concerned, the "large"/"small" and crossover settings are ONLY used where an LFE channel is present, ie with a 5(or 6 or 7).1 soundtrack, for 2-channel (ie music) these settings are ignored and the full frequency sent to the front speakers, which is why some subs have high level inputs as well, so that they can still be utilised with music. So in actual fact if you have "good expensive speaker"s what you set these settings to, makes no difference to the music reproduction.
That's certainly how it works with my amp at any rate.
I do not know about your equipment but in all the ones that I had, when you set the speakers to small it will not send frequencies below 100Hz to those speakers for any source. Regardless whether you are watching movies, TV, or listening to music. This is what the manual of my 2 receivers say. Maybe your works different, you would have to check. Another way you can check is by disconnecting the sub and switching betwen large and small. I have tried that and I can assure you that when you set them to small in my system they are set to small for EVERYTHING.
rendu:If you purchase a good expensive speaker with extended frequency response, you would want to use all its potential and therefore extend the bass through the room better than with a subwoofer. Specially for music you want to use the full potential of the front speakers and only leave the last octave for the subwoofer. This will give a much more natural result for music, this is why stereo amplifiers do not have normally a subwoofer pre-out and a crossover frequency.
I'm reasonably certain that, as far as AV amps are concerned, the "large"/"small" and crossover settings are ONLY used where an LFE channel is present, ie with a 5(or 6 or 7).1 soundtrack, for 2-channel (ie music) these settings are ignored and the full frequency sent to the front speakers, which is why some subs have high level inputs as well, so that they can still be utilised with music. So in actual fact if you have "good expensive speaker"s what you set these settings to, makes no difference to the music reproduction.
That's certainly how it works with my amp at any rate.
I do not know about your equipment but in all the ones that I had, when you set the speakers to small it will not send frequencies below 100Hz to those speakers for any source. Regardless whether you are watching movies, TV, or listening to music. This is what the manual of my 2 receivers say. Maybe your works different, you would have to check. Another way you can check is by disconnecting the sub and switching betwen large and small. I have tried that and I can assure you that when you set them to small in my system they are set to small for EVERYTHING.
FrankHarveyHiFi:A full range speaker, by it's very nature, can't replicate correctly movie soundtracks because theyre mastered on sub/sat systems
I agree about the bass distribution issue, speakers set as large will give a more even soundfield, and I think Andrew's picture talks a lot for itself, another thing is that whatever the settings most of the bass for sound effects will go to the LFE so, if set to large the fronts will only handle bass dedicated to the fronts in the surround mix, and so will the centre and rears, so whats the big real of redirecting the sound from the original mix, those channels are not usually to bass heavy and will not stress the speakers so much.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
007L2Thrill: I know what you are saying and I am not saying anyone in right or wrong, but I have a sub-sat system in my other room which I use on my X-FI card and with all my speakers set to small, now on this system if I play transformers the film and when the robots are walking around etc all bass seems to be coming from one direction, now if I play the same film on my main system in the front room all speakers set to large, now play the same bit of the film and I can hear bass direction all around the room.
Maybe a little tweaking with the sub position will help you out there - I don't have an issue in my room.
Maybe a little tweaking with the sub position will help you out there - I don't have an issue in my room.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Andrew
There are many, many studios that use small sub/sat systems like M&K/Blue Sky and the like for mastering movie soundtracks. I don't know which studio that photo is from, but it could well be a studio that also masters music for gigs and concerts.
There are many, many studios that use small sub/sat systems like M&K/Blue Sky and the like for mastering movie soundtracks. I don't know which studio that photo is from, but it could well be a studio that also masters music for gigs and concerts.
i just watch a movie with 2 different set up. for me set set speaker to small is much better clear n smooth n sub handle low freq very well im like it so much now
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