Forum poll.. Do you believe that hi-fi cables make any difference

[Vladimir]

I do.

I also believe in Father Christmas, Pixies, Elfs, Leprechauns, and Elvis not being dead. *blum3*

Well, One correct out of six isn't too bad.*biggrin*

I know. I saw Elvis riding on the back of Shergar yesterday.

Should have asked him if he thought cables made a difference

Think he would have said

Uuuaaha! !

If you saw Elvis yesterday, imaginery differences in cables should be the least of your concerns.

 

[chebby]

I do.

I also believe in Father Christmas, Pixies, Elfs, Leprechauns, and Elvis not being dead. *blum3*

Well, One correct out of six isn't too bad.*biggrin*

I know. I saw Elvis riding on the back of Shergar yesterday.

Should have asked him if he thought cables made a difference

Think he would have said

Uuuaaha! !

Give him a break, he was only a horse.

 

[unhalfbricking]

I do.

I also believe in Father Christmas, Pixies, Elfs, Leprechauns, and Elvis not being dead. *blum3*

Well, One correct out of six isn't too bad.*biggrin*

I know. I saw Elvis riding on the back of Shergar yesterday.

Should have asked him if he thought cables made a difference

Think he would have said

Uuuaaha! !

Surely the answer would have been 'neigh'! ; )

 

[Gaz37]

At least we now know expensive does not always mean better.

I think we've probably known that before today but its also likely (imho) that paying more sometimes can mean better results.

The opposite can also be true.

A few years ago, in a JD Power survey, VAG cars were ranked, for customer satisfaction, cheapest to most expensive (Skoda, SEAT, VW Audi) now these are mechanically the same cars (Golf=A3=Octavia=Leon) so it could be argued that you might accept a minor niggle on a £15k but find the same unacceptable on a £30k car?

The Audi isn't a "better" car than the Leon (although snobby owners may disagree) but the more money you pay, the better result you expect.

 

[Jota180]

What I or anyone else believes is irrelevant. Show me the results of double blind tests and I'd put more stock in that than someone's beliefs.

 

[Gaz37]

What I or anyone else believes is irrelevant. Show me the results of double blind tests and I'd put more stock in that than someone's beliefs.

They usually show that there is no diffrence, in one famous test a pair of wire coathangers sounded as good as expensive cables.

Oddly people with expensive cables refuse to accept such tests lol

 

[Al ears]

Yes from me.

 

[davedotco]

Changing my speaker cables was the 'last piece in the jigsaw' for getting my system right. Swapping my QED Silver Anniversary cables for QED XT40 just smoothed out the 'top end' ever so slightly, stopped me fretting about the metal dome tweeters on my Kef Q-300s and meant I didn't have to splash out ridiculous amounts of money trying to rectify the situation. The difference in sound is subtle but has been crucial. Nagging feelings of discontentment and all thoughts of expensive upgrades have now vanished -- a huge relief!

Top bombing...!

Take 10, no 20 Thompson points...*clapping*

keep up the good work.

 

[ID.]

Changing my speaker cables was the 'last piece in the jigsaw' for getting my system right. Swapping my QED Silver Anniversary cables for QED XT40 just smoothed out the 'top end' ever so slightly, stopped me fretting about the metal dome tweeters on my Kef Q-300s and meant I didn't have to splash out ridiculous amounts of money trying to rectify the situation. The difference in sound is subtle but has been crucial. Nagging feelings of discontentment and all thoughts of expensive upgrades have now vanished -- a huge relief!

Top bombing...!

Take 10, no 20 Thompson points...*clapping*

keep up the good work.

Everyone knows metal dome tweeters are bright and hard. Unlike silk dome speakers that are soft and as smooth as, erm, silk. Next you'll try to convince us that silver (shiny, shiny silver) cables aren't brighter than copper cables.

 

[Ajani]

Changing my speaker cables was the 'last piece in the jigsaw' for getting my system right. Swapping my QED Silver Anniversary cables for QED XT40 just smoothed out the 'top end' ever so slightly, stopped me fretting about the metal dome tweeters on my Kef Q-300s and meant I didn't have to splash out ridiculous amounts of money trying to rectify the situation. The difference in sound is subtle but has been crucial. Nagging feelings of discontentment and all thoughts of expensive upgrades have now vanished -- a huge relief!

This reminds me of a review I read a few years ago, where the reviewer said he never reviews cables because he regards them as just expensive tone controls.

 

[Ajani]

What I or anyone else believes is irrelevant. Show me the results of double blind tests and I'd put more stock in that than someone's beliefs.

They usually show that there is no diffrence, in one famous test a pair of wire coathangers sounded as good as expensive cables.

Oddly people with expensive cables refuse to accept such tests lol

I'm not into audiophile cables at all. However, one issue with DBT I want to point out, is that it's not quite as straightforward as saying no differences exist.

IMO, DBT shows that IF any differences exist then they are incredibly subtle. Not that no one can tell the difference between cables. For example, John Atkinson (editor of the US HiFi Mag, Stereophile) has spoken quite a few times about participating in DBTs. In one test he and Micheal Fremmer (another Stereophile reviewer) got 4/5 an 5/5 cable comparisons right. However, their results were statistically insignificant. In other words, the vast majority of users couldn't tell the difference. While it's possible the the results for the two "experts" were just luck, I do think it shows that more reseach needs to be done. I'd love to see DBTs done with only "experts" and not the average man, as clearly the average man can't tell the differences.

So it is theoretically possible that some of those reviewers/experienced audiophiles can hear differences. But those differences would be so subtle that buying expensive cables would be a complete waste of money for the rest of us.

 

[drummerman]

DBT ... dont'ya just luv that.

So often quoted (and the naysayers/anti-snake oil brigades favorite term) yet hardly anybody has ever participated in one

 

[davedotco]

DBT ... dont'ya just luv that.

So often quoted (and the naysayers/anti-snake oil brigades favorite term) yet hardly anybody has ever participated in one

DBT is a part of the scientific method and is designed to 'prove' certain assertions in as rigorous scientific manner as possible.

It is rarely carried out in hi-fi for the simple reason that it is complex, time consuming and expensive, and hi-fi is an unimportant hobby.

If people stopped making wild claims for what they hear in sighted tests, then I don't think that DBT would come up at all, as is so common these days, people do not let a lack of understanding stop them from putting forward their views, often most aggressively.

I have taken part in blind tests (not rigorous double blind) and the overwhelming outcome of such listening is just how difficult it can be to hear differences that were, to coin a phrase, night and day in sighted tests.

I make no other claims for what you can and can not hear in blind tests, just that is rather eyeopening should you ever have the chance to take part in one.

 

[Covenanter]

I've never read of a DBT in a hifi enviroment, which isn't to say that they haven't happened. In a DBT the tester along with the testee doesn't know what is being tested. This removes the possibility of influence or collusion. In medical tests for example drugs and placebos are allocated to patients using random number generators by a third party outside the testing team.

Chris

 

[Vladimir]

People are missing 'the rub'. Cables do make a difference, no one is disputing that. However, the sonically best cable, the perfect cable which cannot be improved further with you being able to hear the benefits, should cost no more than $1 per meter and the manufacturer to be profitable. If it was a pro cable with special durability and shielding requirements, the most perverse version of it should be no more than $2 per meter and the manufacturer to be profitable. If you added gold, silver, platinum, silk jackets and many other useless bling, you should get nothing more than $10 per meter.

Why do I see $100 interconnects in the hi-fi shop and $200 short instrument cable in the pro shop? Why are they 100 times more expensive than it should be?

 

[davedotco]

I've never read of a DBT in a hifi enviroment, which isn't to say that they haven't happened. In a DBT the tester along with the testee doesn't know what is being tested. This removes the possibility of influence or collusion. In medical tests for example drugs and placebos are allocated to patients using random number generators by a third party outside the testing team.

Chris

And the numbers involved would be sufficient to give statistically viable result.

That said, simple third party blind tests, using level matched comparisons can be very useful in bringing a sense of reality to most enthusiasts.

 

[Covenanter]

I've never read of a DBT in a hifi enviroment, which isn't to say that they haven't happened. In a DBT the tester along with the testee doesn't know what is being tested. This removes the possibility of influence or collusion. In medical tests for example drugs and placebos are allocated to patients using random number generators by a third party outside the testing team.

Chris

And the numbers involved would be sufficient to give statistically viable result.

That said, simple third party blind tests, using level matched comparisons can be very useful in bringing a sense of reality to most enthusiasts.

Yes, agreed.

Chris

 

[Gray]

It was my first forum post (anywhere) and it looks like it needs to be my last!

 

[Gray]

Please.. no bashing at each other.. I have to say yes .

I was always very sceptical, perhaps because I was an electronics service engineer but let's face it, some of the manufacturers' and reviewers' hype invites disbelief and contempt.

I'd noticed much debate about stranded against single core cable and with access to many types of (non- branded) cable, I thought I would just experiment.

So I took the thickest, 1,024 strand OFC cable and the thinnest, 0.5mm, silver plated cables I could get hold of and made up two 3 metre pairs of speaker cables. The system was able to reveal other differences but I heard no difference whatsoever between these two cables which, physically, couldn't have been more different.

So I just carried on using the thick stuff, for no other reason than to just have the least electrical resistance between amp and speakers.

When the praise was for shielded cable, I made some speaker leads using Sky ‘shotgun’ twin individually foiled / braided screened stuff, designed for RF of course but I was trying anything (I hadn’t ruled out copper water pipes!) This was the first time I’d heard a real difference.

The sound was horrible. I’d be interested to know if anyone else has tried it.

Then some best buy (shielded) stuff I tried did sound better, without doubt, with a much smoother treble as the only noticeable, but real difference.

It is possible (likely) that my early cables were poor quality (despite being either OFC or silver plated) and it could be argued that I just wanted to believe the ‘proper’ stuff was better, though as a natural pessimist, if anything, I was listening for it to be worse!

Anyway, this sceptic has heard a difference. I’ve now settled with Audioquest Flexslip 4-core (For the doubled copper rather than any (potential) bi-wire advantage) and the pure copper solders well.

I did see some £11,000 speaker cables from Russ Andrews once didn’t I? Maybe I should try them next since I’ve never spent more than 6 quid a metre.

 

[steve_1979]

As this is a thread is a poll has anyone tallied up the results yet?

 

[JMacMan]

In the context of an electrical circuit between an amplifiers speaker outputs and a passive loudspeakers input terminals, cables with different LCR specs may well cause the sound of the system to be subtly different. Emphasis upon 'subtle' and 'different' - not better or worse.

Cables with the same LCR specifications in the context of the same system, will produce no differences in sound regardless of the cost or marketing claims made by the manufacturer.

Cheers

John

 

[drummerman]

DBT ... dont'ya just luv that.

So often quoted (and the naysayers/anti-snake oil brigades favorite term) yet hardly anybody has ever participated in one

DBT is a part of the scientific method and is designed to 'prove' certain assertions in as rigorous scientific manner as possible.

It is rarely carried out in hi-fi for the simple reason that it is complex, time consuming and expensive, and hi-fi is an unimportant hobby.

If people stopped making wild claims for what they hear in sighted tests, then I don't think that DBT would come up at all, as is so common these days, people do not let a lack of understanding stop them from putting forward their views, often most aggressively.

I have taken part in blind tests (not rigorous double blind) and the overwhelming outcome of such listening is just how difficult it can be to hear differences that were, to coin a phrase, night and day in sighted tests.

I make no other claims for what you can and can not hear in blind tests, just that is rather eyeopening should you ever have the chance to take part in one.

I did.

With this very publication.

Except that I don't think these tests are always that telling. - They are usually carried out in unfamiliar surroundings with unfamiliar music on an unfamiliar system, often there is still stress from finding the place, commuting and the test itself ie. getting it 'right' in front of other people present.

I think it was Townshend that once carried some tests out on Alpha Waves in relation to hifi. I can't remember exactly but it was something like twenty minutes of total relaxation required to chill out sufficiently to have anything approaching a meaningful dem of equipment. Hardly the environment of a DBT in strange and unfamiliar surroundings (nor a demo of equipment at a dealers with the pressures sometimes involved).

Perhaps if the above is carried out in the system owners home under controlled conditions but even that is not as straigth forward as it seems as you quite correctly pointed out.

Far to much faff involved plus this hobby involves listening with our eyes too. No matter how good something sounds, if it looks horrid in the surrounding in which it will be used its often no good to the owner.

So if something seems to sound better because it also appeals to the other senses ... it does sound better though it may be difficult to convince others likewise.

 

[Vladimir]

People do TV picture quality tests, tasting drinks, food etc. and don't need to visit a spa prior to the tests.

I think it shows that differences are not as night and day as some may think. They are either minute or simply not there.

 

[drummerman]

People do TV picture quality tests, tasting drinks, food etc. and don't need to visit a spa prior to the tests.

I think it shows that differences are not as night and day as some may think. They are either minute or simply not there.

Maybe they should and test would be more accurate ... .

We are often talking minute differences in sound, especially with cables, DAC's etc. so total relaxation before 'tests' (or auditioning) equipment is sure not a bad thing. How often does that happen though?

 

[Vladimir]

People do TV picture quality tests, tasting drinks, food etc. and don't need to visit a spa prior to the tests.

I think it shows that differences are not as night and day as some may think. They are either minute or simply not there.

Maybe they should and test would be more accurate ... .

We are often talking minute differences in sound, especially with cables, DAC's etc. so total relaxation before 'tests' (or auditioning) equipment is sure not a bad thing. How often does that happen though?

Too many people will show up if there is free spa and massage.

"I woke up this morning very skeptical about cables. And my back is acting up a bit."