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Floorstanding speakers up to £1500 for Roksan K3

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Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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CnoEvil said:
IMO. It is the wrong approach, to tell people to avoid certain speakers (or any component)...as that is imposing your preferences on somebody else. We all have different tastes.

If I was to advise people to avoid amps I didn't like, Cyrus would be on that list....but I'm a strong believer in people finding out for themselves, from suggestions they get on here.
Each to their own on amplification but that’s by the way - I’m not telling him to avoid certain speakers on detail, for he will make those choices, I’m giving my opinion it’s wrong to make recommendations to others on choosing a speaker which doesn’t have detail. What next I want a speaker which is flat, not very dynamic, restricted soundstage and not very good imaging.

I’d stand corrected but I’m sure what he probably means is that he doesn’t like a speaker which has too much treble, which is fair enough. Judging by the naim and b and w system I’d expect this but it’s perfectly achievable to buy speakers that reveal everything but have lovely balance. After all that’s what most want when they buy that amp or new CD player and say ‘I’m hearing things on this recording I never heard and it’s given my music a new lease of life’. That’s what I’d and most people want if you spending £1500-£2000!
 

Blacksabbath25

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There are plenty of good speakers company’s out there to choose from not everything is always about PMC speakers quest

I only mentioned Dali opticon because the OP had them in his list of speakers he was interested in demoing them but come on quest there plenty of fish in the sea to choose from .
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
Blacksabbath25 said:
There are plenty of good speakers company’s out there to choose from not everything is always about PMC speakers quest.
quite, that’s why I said the neats at £800 saving could be superb and I mentioned not being brand loyal to pmc. For goodness sake I’m trying to help the guy, give me credit! All I want is that he enjoys hi Fi in the same way I really enjoy it.
 

Blacksabbath25

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Sep 20, 2015
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QuestForThe13thNote said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
There are plenty of good speakers company’s out there to choose from not everything is always about PMC speakers quest.
quite, that’s why I said the neats at £800 saving could be superb and I mentioned not being brand loyal to pmc. For goodness sake I’m trying to help the guy, give me credit! All I want is that he enjoys hi Fi in the same way as me.
PMC are why over budget for him he has £1500 to play with unless you can pick up the PMC 21 under his budget
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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Did you not see the comments and link it’s established he could get the pair for £1600 and potentially £1500 with a bit of haggling.
 

BigH

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
There are plenty of good speakers company’s out there to choose from not everything is always about PMC speakers quest.
quite, that’s why I said the neats at £800 saving could be superb and I mentioned not being brand loyal to pmc. For goodness sake I’m trying to help the guy, give me credit! All I want is that he enjoys hi Fi in the same way I really enjoy it.
Depends what you match PMCs with, I heard them with Audiolab and they were so cold and sterile sounding, I imagine in a bright room they would be awful.

Neats I know they used to use cheap drivers, I was not impressed with the Neat Motives.
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
I’m not telling him to avoid certain speakers on detail, for he will make those choices, I’m giving my opinion it’s wrong to make recommendations to others on choosing a speaker which doesn’t have detail. What next I want a speaker which is flat, not very dynamic, restricted soundstage and not very good imaging.
When you say "Id avoid KEf R500/700 ", it comes across like you are telling the OP...well...to avoid them.

If you'd said that the Kef wasn't to your taste, as in your opinion, it lacked detail...but he should try for himself - that would be fair enough.

I have Kef References, which could not be called lacking in detail...and I don't feel particularly shortchanged when listening to the R Series (given the price difference).

Remember, not everybody hears/appreciates/looks for, the same things you do. IMO. Giving your opinion is fine, but encouraging people to avoid certain products (ie. almost everything that isn't Cyrus/PMC), because you don't rate them, is not helpful.
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
i think you are taking it a bit far cnoevil. I’m giving my opinion and a choice of words.....

youve got kef ls50 as far as you’ve said and that’s an all together fantastic speaker which isn’t lacking on detail compared to a comparison of pmc 20-23 versus kef r700. The r series is different to the ls50/ls50w.

of course they don’t appreciate the same as me. That’s why I’m recommending other brands I like or that are good in their own way, and that could be on an accord with his taste too. The dt8 is a smooth sounding speaker that maybe too smooth for me, but not for his roksan. That’s why I thought of it. With a sugden amp it sounded fantastic and may take the edge off potentially high treble amplification

not everybody looks for the same as me but since I’m taking the time to analyse what I like or what’s good, I’m doing more than most, and rather than just criticise you ought to give credit where it’s due.

this isn’t some sort of ‘my advice is better than yours’ type game Cnoevil. We are all trying to help him. If you want to clarify what I’m saying why not do that.

to be honest if you want to cast aspersions against a brand you equally could say what you don’t like out of fairness, if you are playing by your rules, then why not do so, but to be honest if you don’t like a brand that I like, that’s your preogitive and why should I care what you say on that score.
If you think my comment is predominately about defending what I like, or your ability to know what you like, or "advice one upmanship", or that you are somehow wrong for liking what you do.... then you have missed the point.

I have my preferences, but will never tell anybody to avoid the brands I'm not fond of....and will always try to recommend brands (to demo) based on the requirements of the OP's taste (even if it's not something I'd buy).
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
So what you are basically saying is that you are quite happy to recommend to people stuff that you think is s—t. Hear yourself.

the major point of this forum is to share the good experience of good products -so i like your kef ls50 for the quality sound and detail, although they’d never have the scale of my pmcs. Or the dt8 are smooth but may lack detail IN COMPARISON to twenty5 series etc.

But im not going to sit hear and say go for a speaker that relatively speaking, lacks detail, is musically less coherent and dynamic and less organised, which is a major part of the music. Probably 80 percent of it. That would be a failure for me in terms of advice.

Again I reiterate, I did not tell him to buy something solely because I like it. Ive given choice and lots of it.

You are coming accross like you are some sort of hi Fi expert to me, like you know about every single brand out there and your knowledge about cyrus signature stuff with pmc is probably about as much as I know your speakers interact with a hi Fi brand without hearing it together. Zilch. It a bit galling too as to make recoemdations on a model of a brand you obviously don’t know and which would most likely be better than your amplification and speakers by some margin, on account of the specifications.
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
So what you are basically saying is that you are quite happy to recommend to people stuff that you think is s—t. Hear yourself.

the major point of this forum is to share the good experience of good products -so i like your kef ls50 for the quality sound and detail, although they’d never have the scale of my pmcs. Or the dt8 are smooth but may lack detail IN COMPARISON to twenty5 series etc.

But im not going to sit hear and say go for a brand that lacks detail, is musically less coherent and dynamic and organised, which is a major part of the music. Probably 80 percent of it. That would be a failure for me in terms of advice.

Again I reiterate, I did not tell him to buy something solely because I like it. Ive given choice and lots of it.

You are coming accross like you are some sort of hi Fi expert to me, like you know about every single brand out there and your knowledge about cyrus signature stuff with pmc is probably about as much as I know your speakers interact with a hi Fi brand without hearing it. Zilch.
This is nothing to do with what I know, or what you know...so if you re-read what I've said in the past couple of posts, it should be clear what I'm saying. If not, I'm not sure I can be any clearer.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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Are you saying you don’t advise people on your experiences of what you’ve heard and good?
 

BigH

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It's more a matter of taste, for examble some people love B&W and some don't. I think he should try a wide range to try to find what he likes best, then try them in his room. He has been recommended quite a few to try.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
I totally agree good choice and taste, but there is a case though that holding decent hi fi up against not so good, most people would choose the better hi Fi in a demo. I appreciate that most Hi Fi is good nowadays, but i always think it’s about getting the best for your cash that’s why im enthusiastic to want to impart my experience.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
CnoEvil said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
I’m not telling him to avoid certain speakers on detail, for he will make those choices, I’m giving my opinion it’s wrong to make recommendations to others on choosing a speaker which doesn’t have detail. What next I want a speaker which is flat, not very dynamic, restricted soundstage and not very good imaging.
When you say "Id avoid KEf R500/700 ", it comes across like you are telling the OP...well...to avoid them.

If you said that the Kef wasn't to your taste, as in your opinion, it lacked detail...but he should try for himself - that would be fair enough.

I have Kef References, which could not be called lacking in detail...and I don't feel particularly shortchanged when listening to the R Series (given the price difference).

Remember, not everybody hears/appreciates/looks for, the same things you do. IMO. Giving your opinion is fine, but encouraging people to avoid certain products (ie. almost everything that isn't Cyrus/PMC), because you don't rate them, is not helpful.
i think you are taking it a bit far cnoevil. I’m giving my opinion and a choice of words.....

youve got kef ls50 as far as you’ve said and not kef reference, and the ls50 is an all together fantastic speaker which isn’t lacking on detail compared to a comparison of pmc 20-23 versus kef r700 or indeed against r series. The r series is different to the ls50/ls50w.

of course they may not appreciate the same as me. That’s why I’m recommending other brands I like or that are good in their own way, and that could be on an accord with his taste too. The dt8 is a smooth sounding speaker that maybe too smooth for me, but perhaps not for his roksan. That’s why I thought of it. With a sugden amp in demo photo it sounded fantastic, and dt8 May take the edge off potentially high treble amplification in roksan.

not everybody looks for the same as me but since I’m taking the time to analyse what I like or what’s good, I’m doing more than most, and rather than just criticise you ought to give credit where it’s due.

this isn’t some sort of ‘my advice is better than yours’ type game Cnoevil. We are all trying to help him. If you want to clarify what I’m saying why not do that.

to be honest if you want to cast aspersions against a brand you equally could say what you don’t like out of fairness, if you are playing by your rules, then why not do so, but to be honest if you don’t like a brand that I like, that’s your preogitive and why should I care what you say on that score. The only reason I might challenge is if I don’t think you are right, for benefit of others, especially where recs are given for benefit of op seeking a recommendation. Thank you.
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
Are you saying you don’t advise people on your experiences of what you’ve heard and good?
No.

I'm saying I will never tell them to avoid listening to stuff I don't like. I will try and find out how they like their music presented, and if that is a forward, exciting, detailed and somewhat analytical sound, then I will recommend components that wouldn't get through my door.

If someone is looking for a Streamer, I will recommend they compare Linn and Naim, even though I don't like Naim....as it's not about what I prefer, but what will suit what the OP is looking for. If he doesn't know what he likes, I will recommend he tries components at both ends of the audio spectrum.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
CnoEvil said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
Are you saying you don’t advise people on your experiences of what you’ve heard and good?
No.

I'm saying I will never tell them to avoid listening to stuff I don't like. I will try and find out how they like their music presented, and if that is a forward, exciting, detailed and somewhat analytical sound, then I will recommend components that wouldn't get through my door.

If someone is looking for a Streamer, I will recommend they compare Linn and Naim, even though I don't like Naim....as it's not about what I prefer, but what will suit what the OP is looking for. If he doesn't know what he likes, I will recommend he tries components at both ends of the audio spectrum.
it seems to me you are saying by your approach you inadvertently recommend to people stuff you don’t like which could be bad or is bad, against other stuff, because they may find it good. A bit general. I’m not recommending anything that I know to be rubbish comparatively or that others probably would too if both heard side by side. I’ll just recommend all the good stuff within its brackets of taste, not necessarily to my taste.

If you just buy hi Fi on the basis this amp sounds good without comparison, you are probably going to be buying the stuff which isn’t best for yourself.

everyone is really looking for the same within boundaries of what they like that is good, and it’s more limited than people might make out in hi Fi. That should be the focus.
 

Blacksabbath25

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Sep 20, 2015
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The other way quest and I know you mean well quest it’s not personal in anyway but what you might not.like your self because the speaker hasn’t got very good midrange or it’s to bright a long those lines someone might walk into a shop and think they are the best speakers in the world to them as it’s a personal choice to them

people can take advice and there’s nothing wrong in that I’ve asked advice loads of times and I am no expert but I know what I like myself but if you recommend a brand of speaker then the OP will put it on his list when he is ready to start demoing it if he chooses to as some people ask for advice but go the complete different direction which is there choice to begin with .

you like PMCs and Cyprus you proud that you like both of theses brands and you have invested in those brands I hate PMCs and Cyprus but it doesn’t mean I do not respect those brands .

ive invested in Yamaha and Dali and I am proud that I’ve found what I was looking for but the other side of the coin you probably hate Dali and Yamaha and probably would not recommend those brands to anyone on here because you have mentioned before to me about Dali speakers being to bright and so on in the past but that’s your opinion not mine I have my opinions you can only recommend to someone a product what you think is good but they may hate your recommendations when they finally hear what ever speaker you recommend .
 

CnoEvil

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Blacksabbath25 said:
......but it doesn’t mean I do not respect those brands .
This is exactly right.

I hate the way Chord amps sound and am not a fan of the very expensive Focals...but that doen't mean it's not very well designed/made, or that other people won't like it.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
If you go into a shop like my dad does and just buy the first thing that comes at you or get sold it, sometimes you get it right by coincidence (like he did with his iPad Pro) but other times, well boy you balls it up. So that’s what we are giving advice for. Some can be taken and others ignored depending on experience of op.

i think the problem is when you form a view a brand is bad on itself alone. And that’s hardly ever the case as models can vary a lot with the brand. I’d probably have the top Dalis if offered them but I wouldn’t have your speakers for my taste of the detail, dynamics and balance of them, not your amp which for my system and what I’m used to wouldn’t be good enough. If I put your amp in I’m certain on its spec it would be a step down at a fraction of the quality of my amps. But it doesn’t mean I’d discount your amp make. I would with Dali as I think they are not the right balance for me and I think you can get better for the money, having compare top Dalis with other makes at shows and heard the ones around a grand and two grand.

but I’d be stupid to form a view a basic Yamaha isn’t great only to have a reference quality Yamaha system, assuming it exists, that’s trounces my system. so if you’ve got a £3k amp would you really not have £10k of cyrus stuff. Honestly. Do you realise transpose a basic cyrus amp you may have heard and not liking it to the best a manufacturer can offer. Also in A lot of this stuff is down to the combo of speaker and amp and not necessarily the make. It makes me laugh when people think a brand is bad accross the board based on hearing one amplifier in the range.,

Of course they may hate recommendations but I think you can only do your best and someone may thank you for it, which would be great if so, not that I expect it. I was going down the wrong road for years with some cables and my tannoys dc6ts about 6 years ago were not exactly fantastic. They were good but I don’t think the best. I just went in the dealer and bought them because I had tannoys before which was totally wrong. For similar money knowing what I know now, I could have got a lot more. They were a grand at the time.

My perceptions would be that if you’ve owned monitor audio the op owned and the roksan amp, moving to some in pmc or neat or pro ac would be a good step for the sake of smoothness, more dynamics and just all out better quality. Not just these brands. And that’s why I’d recommend as I’ve been in the Tannoy bracket before, know what the xt6f and 8f sound like , and I know these makes I recommended are just plain better than Tannoy, Dali, and monitor audio at these prices. Not least of which I’m trying to get him something he might not have thought was possible. Cheers.
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
everyone is really looking for the same within boundaries of what they like that is good, and it’s more limited than people might make out in hi Fi. That should be the focus.
The thing is, what they like could vary from a Jadis or Unison Research Amp, driving some Harbeth speakers, or indeed, an Audio Note system; to a Chord Amp driving some Triangle speakers....I would love the former, but wouldn't recommend it to someone looking for the type of sound produced by the latter.

It is possible to recommend components, that aren't rubbish, but that sound very different....some of which I will like and some of which I don't (if it serves the OP's needs).
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
CnoEvil said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
......but it doesn’t mean I do not respect those brands .
This is exactly right.

I hate the way Chord amps sound and am not a fan of the very expensive Focals...but that doen't mean it's not very well designed/made, or that other people won't like it.
you can’t really hate the way chord amps sound because they work with speakers, and it’s the total package, and you could probably get it to suit choosing the right speakers. Usually they get used at shows with very transparent sounding speakers. With your ls50 probably a no no and bright.also those chord amps will be hugely capabale where the bass and treble balance of the speakers doesn’t allow poorly perceived elements of the sound to dominate eg brightness, which isn’t the preserve of better speakers anayway. It’s often very hard to get a very good speaker bright as the balance is often much better.

it makes me all laugh when people think the same way with Cyrus, as it’s a total package. Not least you can’t compare a cooking amp with the top of the range stuff.

I think it can’t really be said that a brand of amplifier should not be used at all or is disliked therfore. A misnomer. Unless really badly performing, but these chord amps certainly are not that way. One of the best.
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
you can’t really hate the way chord amps sound because they work with speakers, and it’s the total package, and you could probably get it to suit choosing the right speakers. Usually they get used at shows with very transparent sounding speakers. With your ls50 probably a no no and bright.also those chord amps will be hugely capabale where the bass and treble balance of the speakers doesn’t allow poorly perceived elements of the sound to dominate eg brightness, which isn’t the preserve of better speakers anayway. It’s often very hard to get a very good speaker bright as the balance is often much better.

it makes me all laugh when people think the same way with Cyrus, as it’s a total package. Not least you can’t compare a cooking amp with the top of the range stuff.

I think it can’t really be said that a brand of amplifier should not be used at all or is disliked therfore. A misnomer. Unless really badly performing, but these chord amps certainly are not that way. One of the best.
We all can only talk from our own experience. I have heard Chord amps on a variety of speakers, from Kef, to Linn...and didn't enjoy the experience....One of the reasons that I will never tell others to avoid the brand, is for the reason you described above ie. I haven't heard them with every possible speaker combination.

IMO. Companies have a House Sound....the higher you go up the range, the better the sound gets...but it usually doesn't stray outside the basic character that the brand is associated with eg. A Cyrus will never sound like a Pathos. I have yet to hear a brand, where I strongly disliked the "cooking models", yet loved the expensive ones....but never say never.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
I think hi Fi is not like fine wines where so much variation and the thinking there are no two systems similar,which isn’t right. If you go around shows some systems can be very similar but totally different components. I think you put it right with your choice of bright/analaytical choice thing you do when making recoemndations. These loose brackets are the basis upon which we buy. And if it was like wine, how could I sample hundreds of grand crus, akin to visiting hundreds of combinations of hi Fi dealers to get what I want. Unfortunately what we like too, is often the basis of trial and error, because we can’t hear most good combinations, until something better sounding we didn’t know of existed, comes along.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
CnoEvil said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
you can’t really hate the way chord amps sound because they work with speakers, and it’s the total package, and you could probably get it to suit choosing the right speakers. Usually they get used at shows with very transparent sounding speakers. With your ls50 probably a no no and bright.also those chord amps will be hugely capabale where the bass and treble balance of the speakers doesn’t allow poorly perceived elements of the sound to dominate eg brightness, which isn’t the preserve of better speakers anayway. It’s often very hard to get a very good speaker bright as the balance is often much better.

it makes me all laugh when people think the same way with Cyrus, as it’s a total package. Not least you can’t compare a cooking amp with the top of the range stuff.

I think it can’t really be said that a brand of amplifier should not be used at all or is disliked therfore. A misnomer. Unless really badly performing, but these chord amps certainly are not that way. One of the best.
We all can only talk from our own experience. I have heard Chord amps on a variety of speakers, from Kef, to Linn...and didn't enjoy the experience....One of the reasons that I will never tell others to avoid the brand, is for the reason you described above ie. I haven't heard them with every possible speaker combination.

IMO. Companies have a House Sound....the higher you go up the range, the better the sound gets...but it usually doesn't stray outside the basic character that the brand is associated with eg. A Cyrus will never sound like a Pathos. I have yet to hear a brand, where I strongly disliked the "cooking models", yet loved the expensive ones....but never say never.
i still don’t think you can say that because you probably haven’t heard it with the right speakers.

i don’t think you’ve thought through the last point because sometimes it’s gets worse as you go up and also it really depends on the technology. The cyrus one is class d and Sounds totally different to cyrus class a b amps like mono x300,so too with the stereo 200 and the x powers actually sound less dynamic so it gives a warm impression. power amplifier have in theory no colouration at all, they are just designed to take the pre amp signal and amplify it so a lot depends on the pre. I’ve changed power amps in a bake off with some other amps that are similar and whilst more powerful and wollier bass, you wouldn’t hardly know that you’ve changed amplifiers. It wasn’t what I liked but for the sake of my pre it would still be good, and with many elements of the sound signature. The same is true of sources. The extent to which you apply a house sound really depends on the rest of the system. You can’t dislike a brand because it’s considered too ‘bright’ when a source injects good detail in a system taking things up a notch, on detail the system is deficient on. If you put my amps on a good pre you liked and your ls50 I’d doubt you get a cyrus house sound that might not be favourable to you.

Youve perphaps never heard the more expensive models is how you get that view. Have you heard cyrus signature?

It would easily be possible to match my electronics with speakers that you like I reckon too. I suspect not the twenty5 range, but defo some other makes that have less treble I suspect, as I get you don’t like it when it becomes too trebeley, not that I’d say mine is that much,
 

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